Top
Best
New

Posted by mgh2 10/23/2024

Goldman and Apple 'illegally sidestepped' obligations to credit-card customers(finance.yahoo.com)
302 points | 194 commentspage 2
xp84 10/23/2024|
The stupidest thing about the Apple Card is how broken their customer service systems are due to a combo of Goldman never issuing a card before, and the tight integration with Apple for account management.

Primary example of this is there is no way to update your email address with the bank. It's your Apple ID and can't change. How do I know this? I changed my Apple ID several years ago, but my credit card comms still come to the old address, and no matter how many times I contact either bank or Apple support, they have no power to fix this. The bank has zero access to edit my information at all, and Apple just sends me in idiotic circles like logging out and into my devices, deleting all other contact emails from my Apple account, etc.

runjake 10/23/2024|
> there is no way to update your email address with the bank. It's your Apple ID and can't change.

These articles worked for me?

Update your Apple Card account information (including email address): https://support.apple.com/en-us/102512

Change your Apple Account primary email address: https://support.apple.com/en-us/109353

xp84 10/24/2024||
That's just the thing: I changed my Apple Account primary email following the instructions in your second link (which is where your first link links to for "email"). I even purged the old email completely so that it's not even an 'alternate' email anymore (which I shouldn't have had to do, and which made things difficult for me in other areas, but was Apple's only idea).

Only Apple Card didn't get the memo and there's no way to poke them to make them update.

xutopia 10/24/2024||
Slap on the wrist fines won't go a long way to help customers.
Bettygreyhound 11/2/2024||
[dead]
exabrial 10/23/2024||
Oh, you mean that you actually _have to have_ * actual * support thats not handled by some dimwit AI?

tsk tsk. Almost feel bad.

impish9208 10/23/2024||
Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41926162
metadat 10/24/2024|
Edit: no discussion == no dupe, it isn't useful to link threads with no/few comments.

Them's the breaks. I don't love it either, but submission spam doesn't move the needle for our community regardless of timestamps, especially when one randomly didn't gain traction first. If you have a better solution, feel free to email hn@ycombinator.com, maybe the staff will take it up!

Don't sweat the small stuff. This story made it to the front page, isn't that cool? Someone was on to something.

gnabgib 10/24/2024||
Best check again, that post was 1h 29m 57s prior.
bangaroo 10/23/2024||
I'm struggling a little bit with the "misleading consumers into getting interest-free monthly payments" part. I never found the checkout flow particularly unclear or obtuse. It kind of sounds like consumers assumed that making a purchase with the apple card automatically enrolled you in the payment plan, versus having to go through a different checkout flow. I do kind of recall that when I used that feature once, it might have been implemented through Apple Pay? That would be supported by the fact that it was only available through Safari if the purchase was made online. I'm probably an outlier in being likely to experience that as I've just used Safari for a while, and so I'm getting their first-class experience. I am no stranger to how utterly awful Apple's products are outside its own ecosystem (like any Apple software designed to run on Windows.)

All of these issues would be infuriating if I encountered them, but it's interesting how the breakdown of failures seems to be 50/50 "Apple doing a terrible job designing a clear and consistent UI or process" and "being bit by their attempts at locking people into their ecosystem, independent of the card" and the Goldman Sachs portion seems just outright malicious.

Incompetence and malice combined are a really powerful force.

skipkey 10/23/2024||
So I can kind of understand where the confusion comes from. I used this to buy my wife and I MacBooks last year. When I started the checkout flow I didn’t initially realize I was just applying for an Apple Card, rather than just being a loan with a fixed payment. I could see people that don’t understand how zero interest offers interact with revolving credit accounts might not have understood.

But the UI is pretty clear when you make a payment, if you drop the amount under the recommended payment how much interest it’s going to cost you.

dylan604 10/23/2024||
I surprised with Apple switching from their loan plans to open credit accounts. The loan plans were setup like student loans where the debt could not be wiped out with bankruptcy where open credit can.
microtherion 10/23/2024|||
As far as I know, Goldman Sachs didn't have previous experience issuing credit cards either, so maybe it was also (partly) incompetence on their part.
Ensorceled 10/23/2024||
> I'm struggling a little bit with the "misleading consumers into getting interest-free monthly payments" part. I never found the checkout flow particularly unclear or obtuse

I really wish everybody who makes claims like these would go to the local library and do volunteer tech support for the elderly, poorly educated and cognitively challenged for a day.

The bar for these things is not "would the average HN reader find this confusing" it is "would the average customer find this confusing". The average IQ is 100, more than half of the US population reads below the grade 6 level.

steveBK123 10/23/2024|||
Agreed though "it needs to be below 6th grade reading level" would essentially invalidate every contract/license/agreement ever entered into..
smcin 10/23/2024|||
There have been several public-interest reports and scorecardings of the readability/unreadability of the language in various consumer/financial contracts (the grade-level required to understand it x the number of minutes/hours to read it).
steveBK123 10/24/2024||
Yes and ARMs got a simple one-pager treatment post-GFC thanks to the CFPB.

I'm just saying that "6th grade reading level" is extremely basic level of literacy that a lot of contracts probably couldn't be easily communicated to that level.

smcin 10/27/2024||
Agreed. Lots of people/bodies/academics have measured contract readability; I didn't say the US CFPB was the only arbiter.

Lina Khan seems to be one of the bigger contributors to curbing excesses, at least in the domains she's authorized to, and she may not keep her job in the next admin.

(As to ARMs, from the regulator point of view, much of the economic damage done is in the rear-view mirror; the next big thing is presumably student loans.)

makeitdouble 10/23/2024||||
That's usually not an issue if your contract and marketing claims are aligned.

Even if the customers didn't you read the contract, they still got the gist of it through the marketing copy and probably won't hit a point where they're really mad about you. Actual trials will also be easier to deal with as you're in good faith.

For all the press we get on "frivolous" lawsuits, no average Joe are winning actual stupid suits.

Here it's an issue because what the credit card is fundamentally made for (make you pay fees on additional services) and the marketing hook (no additional fee) are at odds and is only true for very specific conditions someone can easily fall out of.

steveBK123 10/24/2024||
Absolutely there are bad actors, and consumers getting taken advantage of.

However as you point out - credit cards essentially make money from the less financially savvy by design. It's not entirely a bad thing, in a sense.. some people just run out of money between paychecks and need some liquidity.

Credit access vs predatory debt are sometimes in the eye of the beholder and a very fine line.

It also reminds me of some of the "I've been paying my student debt for 10 years and the balance went up!" like.. yeah, but it means you paid less than the interest. Would you have been happier paying more for the last 10 years? Like what outcome were you expecting and what college education did you go into debt for that didn't prepare you to have reviewed your monthly statements even once in 10 years to realize this?

mrguyorama 10/23/2024|||
Good! This idea that businesses should be free to fleece the stupid and under educated with obtuse contract phraseology and walls of text that have managed to include things like "the soul of your first born" because nobody can reasonably be expected read and understand the full thing is just asinine, naked failure of the government to protect people from predatory business practices.

Caveat Emptor should not mean "They can make the contract literally inscrutable and then you just have to go get fucked".

There's nothing wrong with reasonable consumer protections and required default warranties that CANNOT be discharged by a TOS. You shouldn't have to take a second job to understand whether you are signing away your soul when signing up for a damn credit card.

imchillyb 10/23/2024||
Legalese is about specificity. How does being less precise assist understanding with specificity?

I cannot, in a contract, just refer to a street address. For reasons of specificity, I must state where the survey marker corner is located -exactly- and then detail how many feet from that in a direction, etc. These long descriptions ensure that there are no misunderstandings later.

The verbiage of these contracts have grown more specific through use. People, or companies, wiggle out of things and new contract language is invented to prevent such wiggle-room in the future.

How would one go about accomplishing a 'dumbing down' of a contract, without losing the anti-wiggle specificity?

Also, I really like that word. Say it with me, please: 'specificity.' Neat.

indymike 10/24/2024||
> How would one go about accomplishing a 'dumbing down' of a contract

Perhaps go with the UCC default and not try to have the buyer opt out of every specific consumer right.

The longer the contract, the more one party is probably being screwed with great specificity.

throwaway2037 10/24/2024|||

    > more than half of the US population reads below the grade 6 level.
I find this hard to believe.
geniium 10/23/2024||
And that’s why people should not trust Apple Intelligence : the partnership with open ai and toward data security is a real risk.
threeseed 10/23/2024|
None of your data is sent to OpenAI other than the text you type.

So no different to using their website.

paul7986 10/23/2024|
My recent experience with Apple has been anti-user .. juice their bottom line....

- iCloud storage notifications saying have to upgrade to $9.99 plan to continue to store my photos, videos and even worse if I wanted to continue getting my iCloud emails. What(?), as my Google Photos is still sucking/backing up all the same media (goes back to 2016) for free. LAME Apple especially threat of not getting my iCloud emails!!!!

- Apple Intelligence is so LAME compared to chatGPT app that runs on my iPhone. ChatGPT's iPhone app, it's assistant is almost sentient while Siri is still HORRID as it still at times doesnt understand you, you cant have a conversation with it or have it recall previous conversation/info you previously discussed as you can with GPT on iPhone. Again very LAME Apple!

If Microsoft and Open AI made a ChatGPT AI phone I'd drop Apple quickly especially after my first point above ...threatening me that i wont receive my emails if I didnt give them more money!

nerdjon 10/23/2024||
> iCloud storage notifications saying have to upgrade to $9.99 plan to continue to store my photos, videos and even worse if I wanted to continue getting my iCloud emails. What(?), as my Google Photos is still sucking/backing up all the same media (goes back to 2016) for free. LAME Apple especially threat of not getting my iCloud emails!!!!

To my knowledge Google will do the same thing if you are running out of space. I believe it is shared also but I could be wrong. I have been out of Google's ecosystem for a while.

Apple should increase the base amount of storage with iCloud for free. What you mentioned itself is not an Apple thing to my knowledge.

> Apple Intelligence is so LAME compared to chatGPT app that runs on my iPhone. ChatGPT's iPhone app, it's assistant is almost sentient while Siri is still HORRID as it still at times doesnt understand you, you cant have a conversation with it or have it recall previous conversation/info you previously discussed as you can with GPT on iPhone. Again very LAME Apple!

Unless you are on the beta, you are not actually using Apple Intelligence. Even if you are on the 18.1 beta, they have made it clear that they there are multiple updates for everything to come out.

paul7986 10/23/2024||
THanks, just always have had good user experience in every way with Apple, so getting email notifications one after the other where they said you need to upgrade if you want us to continue backing your stuff up was mildly odd. Yet, in their first communication they didnt mention anything about not getting email yet they did in the third or so email which felt very anti-user to me.

As for Apple Intelligence Ive been using it since late September/early October. Been using ChatGPT app on iPhone for months to more so I expected Siri to be comparable to GPT but its not even close at all. Siri still doesnt understand you always like GPT does, points you to a Google search (maybe that's due to a built agreement with Google) for most things and can not recall how many calories i ate a few days ago (example of recall memory). Using GPT while driving is awesome/handy/i find it very useful (to get info for various chores & count my daily calories). Yet Siri to have the same experience would cause me to have accident.

kemayo 10/23/2024|||
Yeah, all of that Siri stuff you're trying isn't there yet.

18.1 (the current beta) has minor improvements to Siri for immediate follow up requests and parsing requests where you stumble over words. 18.2 is supposed to be picking up ChatGPT integration so Siri can ask it about things. The "personal context" recall is apparently in 18.4, so we won't see it until next year.

Honestly, 18.1 launching the new Siri UI (the glowy look) feels like a bad idea -- I'd have kept it until 18.4 when the real intelligence improvements actually land.

https://www.macrumors.com/2024/09/22/apple-intelligence-feat...

rootusrootus 10/23/2024||||
On the flip side, if Apple can keep most/all the processing on device, I'll accept a modest reduction in quality compared to ChatGPT. Admittedly I haven't tried Apple Intelligence yet so I don't know just how big the reduction in quality is.
aucisson_masque 10/23/2024|||
> if Apple can keep most/all the processing on device, I'll accept a modest reduction in quality compared to ChatGPT.

Be ready to accept a huge decrease in quality, even compared to chatgpt 3.5

Phones are not computer, they use battery. Whatever apple do, it can't beat the law of physics.

There is no way but send it all on remote computer for ai.

rootusrootus 10/23/2024||
Agreed, but the kind of stuff I want it to be capable of is way more limited than I'd ask of ChatGPT. I've tried a little model on my iPhone (Llama-3.2-3B-Instruct) that was better than I expected, both in capability and in responsiveness. Gives me hope for the future of on-device processing.
paul7986 10/23/2024|||
That's cool... personally Im most interested in cool tech/innovation over privacy if that's what you mean by keep the processing on the device.
threeseed 10/23/2024||
Many of us however would strongly prefer that our photos, documents, emails, contacts etc not be stored unencrypted on a server.

And the capabilities of this model would still be limited as well given that Apple is not going to be able to host a large parameter one for each user.

paul7986 10/23/2024||
yeah everyone is different ... im either an innovator (of go nowhere technology lol) or an early adopter. Like Im enjoying my Ray Ban Metas since last October (use them daily). Yet for many they are a privacy nightmare.
gtvwill 10/23/2024|||
Apples constant push for subscription icloud data storage is predatory at best. The amount of users/clients I come across with devices way out of date re software/security patches because their iphones not got enough space on it to download its own update and it doesn't provide a easy way to transfer large chunks of data off it like photos/videos is ridiculous. Something like 50% of users easily. Sample size probably upwards of 50. They get constantly harassed by crap asking them to buy icloud storage.
gruez 10/23/2024|||
>and it doesn't provide a easy way to transfer large chunks of data off it like photos/videos is ridiculous

Using the web interface of another cloud provider to upload files there, and downloading it on your other device? Most cloud providers give you around 10GB for free, which should be more than enough room to install ios updates.

paul7986 10/23/2024|||
yeah the whole Apple Intelligence only available to 15 and 16 iPhone users is anti-user / juice profits move.

The horrid thing is Apple Intelligence is not worth upgrading your device for and yet that's their marketing to get people to upgrade lol. As another commenter in this thread commented a comparable ChatGPT Siri is coming yet not for some months.

Definitely would jump to another platform if the phone is an AI sentient like driven phone (new paradigm in phone design / layout where there's not as much UI). So far ChatGPT is my best experience with such an AI and Microsoft who owns what half of Open AI did create pretty good Windows phone back in the day. Maybe it will happen... been wanting such since I first used ChatGPT.

threeseed 10/23/2024||
> yeah the whole Apple Intelligence only available to 15 and 16 iPhone users

iPhone 14 has 6GB RAM. iPhone 15 Pro + 16 have 8GB RAM.

The LORA adapters need to be loaded into memory so seems reasonable they would need extra.

shaunkoh 10/23/2024|||
Uh, Gmail also has usage limits for each tier. I know before I’ve painstakingly removed emails with large attachments just so I can keep receiving my email.
gtvwill 10/23/2024||
15gb on the free tier...empty your emails folks. This madness of keeping every email is insane. I had a user with 60000 unopened emails on one account just 2 weeks ago. It's like some folks refuse to do basic data/comms house keeping.
CamperBob2 10/23/2024|||
Bush league. https://i.imgur.com/ic0RJXO.png

(Or, what happens when you get an early GMail invite and erroneously think, "Awesome, I have a four-character email address. How cool is that?")

paul7986 10/23/2024|||
I have junk gmail address that gets filtered into my real gmail account (Zunk label instead of Junk) which keeps my real gmail account clean (few to handful of emails a day of things that are meaningful). Ive always have given out my junk gmail address to anyone i dont know personally or do business with.
joshstrange 10/23/2024|||
Google no longer offers unlimited photo backup and Apple Intelligence hasn’t been released yet…
paul7986 10/23/2024||
As of today 18.1 Apple Intelligence was released. I was running the Apple Intelligence beta for the last month.
joshstrange 10/23/2024||
18.1 has not been released, it will be released on Monday, October 28th and it will still not contain all the features they previewed (nor did the beta).
paul7986 10/23/2024||
Ah my bad i just updated to 18.1 per a system settings notification i received today. I was running 18.1 betas the last few weeks so I guess for beta users they were updated today to regular 18.1.
ClassyJacket 10/24/2024||
What does this have to do with the Apple credit card?