Top
Best
New

Posted by kretaceous 10/24/2024

Rider is now free for non-commercial use(www.jetbrains.com)
828 points | 422 comments
terminalbraid 10/24/2024|
This is pretty huge all around, especially with Microsoft discontinuing Visual Studio for Mac.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/releases/2022...

I'd also like to note the great integration Rider has with Godot and Unity for game development.

klik99 10/24/2024||
Don't forget Unreal as well - I've used Rider on multiple AAA Unreal titles that include custom engine edits and it is significantly faster than VS at loading massive projects. The integration is great and allows for seeing blueprint classes and references in the C++ project.

I say this as a big user of JetBrains - I have had SOME issues with their intellisense dropping some references in Rider when there are a lot of references, so I would occasionally switch to VS when there were a lot of references to search through, but other than extreme cases Rider is just so much more pleasant to use.

danhau 10/24/2024|||
I had no idea Rider supported C++. My impression was that it is for .NET only. How does it compare to CLion?
klik99 10/24/2024||
Yeah they originally had a separate branch "Rider Unreal" but now it's part of Rider, C++ support seems mostly the same across both, except for project support. If IIRC Rider doesn't support CMake projects, but it does support vsproj projects, so if you generate vs files from cmake it'll load fine, but probably better to use CLion for any non-UE projects if using C++. I guess they're seeing it as .NET/GameDev IDE.

Honestly I don't know why there are so many almost identical IDEs.

nilawafer 10/24/2024|||
JetBrains IDEs are all the same program just bundled with different language plugins. It would be like if you called VSCode by a different code name depending on which combination of extensions you had installed.
mqus 10/24/2024|||
Not entirely. E.g. IntelliJ has a "project environment" modal (not sure about the exact name rn), in pycharm its part of the settings and a bit different. There are a few more things like this between the IDEs.
Groxx 10/25/2024||
To +1 this: yes, they clearly share a lot of code, and have mostly-identical plug-in interfaces, and many dedicated IDEs have plugins for the more-general Intellij IDE.

And they present them as "just" a dedicated UI around the plugins.

But no, they are not actually the same. Essentially ever. The dedicated IDEs often have features that never make it into their plugins, and a lot of the UX and project structure/preferences/etc are quite specialized and don't always have equivalents outside it. You get like 90-95% with the plug-in, but not 100%, and sometimes that's a critical difference.

The plugins do have the distinct benefit of allowing you to use multiple in a single project, though.

memsom 10/25/2024|||
If you open, say Android Studio (or IntelliJ) and start a new project, then open Rider and start a new project - the UI is actually very different for how the projects are managed. PyCharm is different too in different ways.

I think the differences are more akin to the old Visual C# Express and Visual Basic Express IDEs vs Visual Studio. Visual Studio was always "everything", but you used to get the express versions that were "low cost" or free. They only had the single language in them. They were customised to just that language. This is what Rider is to IntelliJ Professional, except from what I understand, the plug-ins for IntelliJ are not always on a 1:1 feature parity. This can even be seen with Android Studio and IntelliJ Community. The Android tooling in IntelliJ Community is almost the same, but it does miss out some stuff in Android Studio. Because Android Studio is specifically for Android development, and IntelliJ Community is more general purpose Kotlin and Java development. I think the Kotlin Native support is slightly better in IntelliJ Community.

ohnoesjmr 10/24/2024||||
I use both Rider (for mixed c++/c#) projects and CLion for C++ only.

I feel that Rider is somehow better than CLion at c++, even after CLion Nova (Intellisense based on Resharper backend) became a thing.

One difference is that I write boost::asio in CLion, and just vanilla C++ in Rider, and before Nova it was completely unusable with async code, now it's usable with async code, but after a few days of running the editor I end up with fatal IDE errors for CLion, and never for Rider.

adgrant 10/27/2024||||
The CMake support in CLion is excellent. Visual Studio 2022 also has native CMake support but I find the CMake tooling in CLion to be much better.
throwaway19972 10/24/2024|||
> Honestly I don't know why there are so many almost identical IDEs.

Probably a reflection of internal organization to avoid product teams stepping on each others' toes.

8f2ab37a-ed6c 10/25/2024||||
+1 for Rider for Unreal. Having it "just work" out of the box is incredible. Happy to be paying for it.
HeavyStorm 10/24/2024|||
Rider is much, much better than VS work unreal. And this is coming from a VS fanboy.
marklubi 10/24/2024|||
VS for Mac was junk. Better off trashing it and pushing people the VS Code route.

I use VS Code daily for .NET development. It's probably 70% of what VS on Windows is, but it works well and I don't need to run a VM for it (if I need some of the in-depth tracing and profiling stuff, I can still fire up the gold standard). VS on Mac was maybe 30%

tokinonagare 10/24/2024|||
> VS for Mac was junk. Better off trashing it and pushing people the VS Code route.

Sure but VS Code for C# is trash as well. All those years, both Microsoft products, and this the experience is subpar, especially in comparison to the real Visual Studio.

badsectoracula 10/24/2024|||
> both Microsoft products

With 200K+ employees, at this point it is better to think of Microsoft as a city and different teams in it as independent companies in that city with employees that sometimes go out for coffee together :-P

shiroiushi 10/25/2024|||
I thought this org diagram was supposed to be an accurate portrayal of how different teams in MS relate to each other:

https://i.extremetech.com/imagery/content-types/01b4upAMl7t9...

NBJack 10/25/2024||
Not enough weapons, and some of them should be pointed at the user for the most accurate portrayal. Particularly around any team working on Copilot.
pooper 10/24/2024|||
> With 200K+ employees, at this point it is better to think of Microsoft as a city and different teams in it as independent companies in that city with employees that sometimes go out for coffee together :-P

As a former v dash, it was always amusing to see the proclamations come down from the mountain that basically said something like if you are using version x.y.z or below of so and so dependency you must correct it within n days. The people enforcing this seemingly didn't care what the application did or where you were in your software lifecycle, all they cared about was this dependency is raising a flag and we must fix it. :crylaugh:

fingerlocks 10/24/2024||
Dealing with random compliance issues is literally 50% of the job for most SWEs at msft. Another 40% is spent fingering a yubikey and closing browser login tabs. Occasionally you can get some real work done on a slow Wednesday afternoon.
ed_elliott_asc 10/24/2024||||
100% which is why I use rider :)
pnathan 10/24/2024|||
Tried vs code recently, remembering old vs.

Yeah not even in the same room of competence imo. Just a cranked up notepad++ in electron and with add-ons imo.

throw4950sh06 10/25/2024||
The extensions are how you make it a proper IDE. I use cca 60, makes it better than VS ever was.
pnathan 10/25/2024||
Might as well use emacs at that point. :)
urbandw311er 10/24/2024||||
Actually you should take a look at Rider in that case. It’s about 120% of what VS on Windows is! I use it as my daily IDE for a production .NET back end. You won’t look back I promise.
madeofpalk 10/24/2024|||
It is embarrassing (for Microsoft) how much better Rider is for C# than Visual Studio.
pjmlp 10/25/2024||
To this day there is now Visual C++ developer experience that is comparable to C++ Builder for GUI development, there was C++/CX for a while (C++/CLI depends on C# for the GUI part), but then it was killed by an internal riot that pushed for the ways of ATL and IDL in the form of C++/WinRT.

C++/CX was deprecated and replaced by C++/WinRT in 2016.

To this day, to develop WinUI C++ applications, there is no built-in tooling in VS, you need to manually generate and merge C++ code out of IDL files, which have zero support on Visual Studio for syntax highlighting and code completion, unless you reach out to some third party plugins.

To top that, given the way things turned out, C++/WinRT is now in maintenance, no goals to ever move it past C++17, or improve Visual Studio developer experience.

I doubt that they feel embarassed by this outcome.

memsom 10/25/2024||
I haven't touched C++ Builder since mid 2000's. Does it still rely on the VCL? That was always the criticism I heard at the time. The VCL was written in Pascal and no C++ developer liked that it was not C++. It constantly got flack for it. The VCL was good at the time, but Pascal is more akin to C# in the way it does inheritance, so no multiple inheritance was able to be done with VCL components IIRC.
pjmlp 10/25/2024||
Yes and no, VCL is around, although it has been replaced by FireMonkey.

Multiple inheritance in C++ is a can of worms, unless you're prepared to deal with the related issues of virtual base classes, and diamond inheritance.

That is why after C++ all the languages that support multiple inheritance do so only at the interface level and not implementation code, or rather go with a mix-ins approach.

And in regards to Microsoft world, well the same developers that weren't happy with VCL and Pascal, and in for a treat given that the only modern way to do native Windows UIs in Microsoft world is via .NET consuming DLLs/COM/WinRT, unless they want to either stick with MFC, or the outdated tooling in C++/WinRT.

memsom 10/25/2024||
Yeah, the VCL was the first UI framework I used.

With regards to multiple inheritance, this was the C++ Builder criticism, not mine. That and the extra macros needed to support the VCL. I was a Delphi guy, so I appreciated that the Object Pascal version of using the VCL was cleaner to use than the C++ interface.

We no longer use C++ for UI. Any native code is wrapped up in to P/Invokes. I think all of our MFC apps are EOL now. Everything is WPF or Maui for cross platform.

grujicd 10/24/2024|||
Can it open VS solution and project files?
memsom 10/25/2024|||
The latest version can now even open SLNX files, which are the newest format that removes a lot of the stuff that makes VS Solution files painful to maintain in source control.
urbandw311er 10/25/2024||||
Yes, it can pretty much do everything you’d get in Visual Studio.
russelg 10/25/2024|||
Of course it can, that's the baseline for a VS competitor lol
grujicd 10/25/2024||
Well VS Code can’t open sone of VS project types, more specifically it couldn’t open the one based on JS and JS build tools. I’ll check with Rider.
memsom 10/25/2024||
It depends on the platform. For example, Rider on Mac will not open vscproj/vcxproj files, because it doesn't support C++ really on non Windows. But I think that is mostly because it would need to use a different C++ compiler and that is non trivial. I would imagine it would also struggle with project types that are not normal (VS extensions, installer projects etc) and C++/CLI as that is not supported outside of Windows too (and I think uses the standard vsc[x]proj file format anyway...)
fuzzy2 10/24/2024|||
I mean, yes, VS Code certainly is great and all, but…

> It's probably 70% of what VS on Windows is

no. From my perspective, it doesn’t even have 50% of VS features, and that’s probably a generous estimation. VS has lots and lots of features. Granted, many of them are irrelevant for most users most of the time.

Even Rider is lacking in comparison. It is very limited regarding debugging targets for example.

n_plus_1_acc 10/24/2024|||
As a regulär Jetbrains products user, I was shocked when I first has to use VS. Until today, I haven't figured out how to open a class by name (from any assembly), other than writing they name in code ans strl-clicking it.
Yodel0914 10/24/2024|||
Ctrl-T (or depending on your mappings, maybe Ctrl-P). Honestly, you can't blame the IDE for you not spending time working out how to do the basic stuff.

Visual Studio has come a long way (I've been using it since the .net 1.1 days). Out of the box, it gives you most of what you got from Resharper 2 years ago.

All that said, I switched to Rider a year or so ago and haven't looked back. I used to use VS for C# and VSCode for html/typescript/css, but Rider happily handles both. It's really nice to have one IDE for everything. And unsurprisingly, it seems to perform better than Resharper + VS.

notpushkin 10/25/2024||
> Honestly, you can't blame the IDE for you not spending time working out how to do the basic stuff.

Wasn’t the whole premise of JetBrains making different IDEs for different stacks that you don’t need to learn how to do the basic stuff and can transfer your knowledge from <insert dominant IDE for said stack at the moment>?

recursive 10/25/2024|||
With my key-bindings it's ctrl+comma. I'm genuinely curious though. How did you figure out how to do it in Rider?
NBJack 10/25/2024||
FWIW, one of the cool parts about the JetBrains ecosystem is that, almost regardless of the language/IDE you're in, the keybondings are highly similar. When I have to work in VSCode, I happily use the JetBrains bindings.
beanjuiceII 10/24/2024|||
you have the dev kit installed and put your enterprise license in? whats missing?
mananaysiempre 10/24/2024|||
Wasn’t VS for Mac a MonoDevelop build with amputated Linux support rather than a version of Visual Studio proper? Or am I out of date on this?
billyhoffman 10/24/2024|||
It started that way but wasn’t been for a while. In fact the last version was a rewrite using native macOS controls and optimized for Apple Silicon. Sad to see it go but heard great things about Rider for c# development.
nick_ 10/24/2024|||
The newer mac version was actually showing huge promise. It was a couple of versions away from being a great choice as primary IDE. That said, I do understand why they axed it. The market would have been tiny for all that investment.
pjmlp 10/25/2024|||
Shortly after the team managed to ship the 1.0 release of the rewrite, what a reward.
memsom 10/25/2024||
to be fair, I heard the team all got canned at the same time.
LeFantome 10/24/2024|||
Yes, that is what it was.

Microsoft had continued to evolve it. And a few components from Visual Studio Windows were ported over to be common. But Visual Studio Mac was 100% rebranded Xamarin Studio which of course was just an evolution of MonoDevelop.

sbrother 10/24/2024|||
What does "noncommercial use" mean in this context though? These are tools for work - is the idea that students can use them for free and then will start paying once they finish school?
LeFantome 10/24/2024|||
It means you can use them as a hobbiest or a student. For example, you can now use Rider as the IDE on an Open Source project.

If you are writing code that you are going to be paid for, you are supposed to pay.

Of course, they know a lot of small devs will use it that should not. But few of them would have paid anyway and this creates a much greater pool of buyers when those devs get jobs or achieve commercial success.

I am a Rider fan so this is exciting.

jcotton42 10/24/2024||
> For example, you can now use Rider as the IDE on an Open Source project

It's worth noting that even before this change, you can get the entire JB suite for free if you regularly contribute to a qualifying OSS project https://www.jetbrains.com/community/opensource/.

memsom 10/25/2024||
I think the issue used to be that proving that involved them vetting you and I know that my contributions were deemed too sporadic. Which is chicken and egg - I would do more with a good IDE, but I can't have a good IDE till I do more. At least now, I can just do what I can without worrying.
BaculumMeumEst 10/24/2024||||
It means a wink, a nod, and perhaps a nudge nudge.
jasonjmcghee 10/24/2024||||
Game jams, releasing game for free- that makes up a whole lot.

Curious where the line is if you're using it during a YouTube video that you have a Patreon for etc.

I think most games built never make money.

cypressious 10/24/2024||
It's explicitly allowed to be used for content creation.
sans_souse 10/25/2024||||
Please tell me you knew such people existed prior to getting the correct answer above.. I'll sleep better
prepend 10/24/2024|||
Students or OSS
Deukhoofd 10/24/2024||
But it was already free for students, and they have a partnership program with OSS which allows you to use it for free as well.
nic547 10/24/2024|||
You need to apply once a year and you need to be a maintainer of an active oss project for the oss license. From my experience they're very lenient in regards to what they consider active, but I don't think I'd jump trough the hoops if I didn't start using Rider with the student license.

Free for non-commercial offers a easy way to get people to use it and hopefully advocate for it at their jobs.

mariusor 10/25/2024||
I did jump through the hoops every year and it's mostly fine, a 20m form filling exercise. I only had to explain one time that my project was still ongoing despite having a lot of seemingly automated commits.
nightski 10/24/2024|||
It was still a process. You had to have an established OSS project and go through the partnership process.

Now you can just use it for free for any hobby/oss projects without all the red tape.

Quarrelsome 10/24/2024|||
> I'd also like to note the great integration Rider has with Godot

I wish Godot's syntax for .NET wasn't horrible though. Its so nasty looking that it just makes me want to use their native language instead.

connicpu 10/24/2024|||
That's what I've opted for as well, and I have to say I prefer it. gdscript is a nice language for high level game scripting, and on the couple occasions I needed to bring in some high-performance code I found it super easy to build a gdextension in Rust.
nightowl_games 10/24/2024|||
Forget gdextension imo

Compile the engine from source and add your classes as a module. Cuts out all the gdextension glue code and then you don't need to ship a shared library.

capitol_ 10/24/2024|||
Wouldn't this make engine version upgrades a nightmare?
nightowl_games 10/25/2024||
No. Your game code is a new class, in whats called a module, which is fully supported by the engine. Your game code almost definetly relies on the same stable APIs that a GDExtension or GDScript itself uses. There will be no merge conflicts, no problems, almost certainly.

Note: We have a fork of godot that has some changes and fixes weve made and engine upgrades are still a breeze. Solving the odd merge conflict is not that hard, people do it all the time. Godot's code base isnt drastically changing from day to day. 3->4 only had significant impact if you were doing certain things with the 'visual server'... other than that even that was easy.

npinsker 10/24/2024|||
How do you write Rust code in that case?
nightowl_games 10/25/2024||
You don't, but Rust isnt the right fit for gamedev imo.
LelouBil 10/24/2024|||
I started a Godot project with C# support since I'm coming from Unity.

I now have at least 50 GDScript files and not a single C# file, the language is good (with types).

My only issue is that I can't get Copilot in their integrated IDE and that Rider's GDScript plugin doesn't support anonymous functions right now

daelon 10/25/2024|||
VSCode is also an option, with the godot-tools extension.
neonsunset 10/24/2024|||
GDScript is not good and never will be.
xinayder 10/24/2024||
If it wasn't good then first, it wouldn't be shipped with the engine, second, people wouldn't use it to make games.
pjmlp 10/25/2024|||
The same reasoning can be applied to JavaScript and everything else where the platform offers one main language in detriment of others.
hokumguru 10/24/2024|||
Honestly, I feel like this is a horrible argument when gamemaker still ships its own trash language too lol
neonsunset 10/24/2024||||
The solution is, of course, to not use Godot in the first place.
pjmlp 10/25/2024|||
I really don't get why Unity, and now Godot as well, always end up with these magic reflection methods, instead of proper language design.
kwanbix 10/25/2024|||
This is better than nothing, but I believe a Unreal type of license for their products would be much better. Like, if you do less than what 5000 euros/usd per month, you can use it for free, after that, you pay X per major version. That way I can start using it for free, and as soon as I reached some reasonable ammount of money I start to pay.

This is Unreal's license for those that don't know it:

* Game developers (royalties apply after $1 million USD gross product revenue) = Free

* Individuals and small businesses (with less than $1 million USD in annual gross revenue) = Free

Another thing they can do is what they do with YouTrack. 1~2 devs, free, after that X per major version or Y per year.

ferfumarma 10/24/2024||
What does Rider add to the Godot dev experience? (I'm not familiar with either ecosystem, but I thought I recall Godot having an IDE when I last booted it up to play with it).
terminalbraid 10/24/2024||
The Godot IDE is mainly around GDscript and is very basic. This gives you all the good tooling you'd get from a professional IDE, has best in class refactoring tools, integrates well with stuff like debugging, has a huge plugin ecosystem, better out-of-the-box suggestions and code completion, integrates with AI tooling, etc.
mattferderer 10/24/2024||
As a paying subscriber I love this move for the .NET community.

As a .NET dev for many years, I've noticed there have been periods of time where either Visual Studio or Rider was far better than the other. Currently, Rider is much better.

Hopefully this encourages more people to try out C# & F#. Both fantastic languages.

- Edit - Looks like Webstorm (JS/TS editor) is also free now.

CharlieDigital 10/24/2024||
I had a Rider license for a while but just let it lapse.

I've found myself totally satisfied with just VS Code on macOS (it's come a really long way).

I'm glad that this move will possibly make .NET more accessible, but I think VSC is in a really good place with C# at the moment and shouldn't be overlooked.

mattferderer 10/24/2024|||
VS Code is really good at certain things but it struggles on larger projects & doesn't have near the advanced features.

It's a very good choice though for a lot of projects. It's also a great way to try out C#. It has some amazing extensions for certain tasks too.

CharlieDigital 10/24/2024|||
VSC feels pretty capable in my books.

We have a mono-repo with 100k lines of C# in 8 projects, 40k lines of Vue SFCs in 2 workspaces, 39k lines of TypeScript, 23k lines of Astro. No issues at all running it on a 2021 14" MacBook Pro with only 16GB RAM and 512GB SSD while also running multiple Docker containers for Postgres, Neo4j, Memcached, and LocalStack.

My take is that folks should not underestimate VSC; there are certainly things that Rider does better, but VSC is totally viable for modern .NET backend work.

withinboredom 10/24/2024|||
100k loc is not big. That’s a small-medium sized project.
CharlieDigital 10/24/2024|||
It's not an all C# project; C# only comprises the backend.

All in, the mono-repo is somewhere over 250k SLOC with mixed languages (Vue SFC, TS, Astro, JSX, shell). So when VSC is loaded, it's not only handling C#, but also everything else.

Point is that VSC is more than capable of handling production scale, multi-language workspaces even on 2021 hardware with only 16GB of RAM.

nightski 10/24/2024||
It's not that VS Code can't load a large project, that is table stakes. It's that the tools it provides to work with those large code bases are like fisher price versions of the Jetbrains equivalents. If one take their tools seriously, and uses them to the maximum extent possible to increase productivity, reliability, and robustness of code then there is just no comparison between the two.

Don't get me wrong, I still use VS code for all front-end development and other ecosystems (such as Rust). But when it specifically comes to C#/.NET there is no substitute to Rider in my opinion.

Volrath89 10/25/2024|||
Rider is great for front end development too!

I have used it for angular and react and have had 0 complaints, it works great and the best is that I do not need to switch IDEs anymore

I haven’t tried cursor because I don’t want to “downgrade” to VS Code anymore.

symlinkk 10/24/2024|||
What tools are missing? It has debugging, a test runner, Intellisense.
mattferderer 10/24/2024||
To be fair they're not a great comparison.

VS Code starts out as a lightweight code editor & via extensions you can turn it into more of an IDE but it'll take a lot of customization & messing around.

Rider is an IDE with all the bells & whistles already included. It also has extensions but they've built it with the most popular things already.

Refactoring, debugging, code navigation, formatting & hinting/suggestions are far superior in Rider. They have a lot more advanced features. Check out some YouTube videos by JetBrains to see examples.

Don't get me wrong - VS Code is still a great tool & I use it daily. I do wish they would have named it something other than "Code" or "Visual Studio Code" but hey, it's Microsoft. They're famous for terrible bad name choices. Maybe they'll make a copilot to fix that.

elAhmo 10/24/2024|||
100k lines of code is definitely big and by no means a small project.
sigseg1v 10/25/2024|||
Just my experience, but at multiple companies, which are in the 50-70 employees range, their C# codebases were over 1 million LOC and I didn't get the feeling that they were exceptionally large or doing anything significantly different. I would put 1 million LOC as "medium enterprise . NET" which would place 100k in the small or possibly medium sized if there was significantly more LOC in another language that is part of the project that you aren't counting (eg. different web front-end).
LandR 10/25/2024||||
For enterprise .NET that's definitely small.

I've commonly seen enterprise .NET projects that are in the millions of LOC. And one that was over 10 million.

no_wizard 10/25/2024|||
I’d say medium, edging toward small, especially for the .NET community
yungporko 10/25/2024|||
my experience last time i tried it on a decent sized blazor project (about a year ago) was countless false errors and broken syntax highlighting to the point that i had to ignore everything and treat it like a dumb text editor like notepad if i wanted to actually get anything done instead of chasing shadows
ohnoesjmr 10/24/2024|||
I work on a almost 20 year old C# monolith, with 1000+ projects per solution. It doesn't even load in VS or VSC. Rider needs 16GB of ram, but manages to open it. I try to never close the IDE, as it takes 30mins to open.
memsom 10/25/2024||||
The C# dev kit plug-in improved VSCode a lot, but it is still under the same licensing as Visual Studio Community. So, you need an account to use it, and it is pretty restricted for commercial use without an MSDN/Visual Studio subscription. If you are using it commercially outside of the terms of the Community license, you are probably using it illegally.

Not using the C# Dev kit, the old OmniSharp stuff is miles behind Rider. It is really poor in comparison.

I've been a previous subscriber, but I let my license lapse after this announcement. I don;t really need to be on the "latest and greatest" train, and I can get my company to buy me a license if a new feature comes in that I need commercially. I have got a perpetual fallback Rider license, but I will also use the non-commercial licenses to do any OS work in my spare time going forward (which is mostly on Mac and why I had a paid licence initially anyway.)

wokwokwok 10/24/2024|||
What fan boy nonsense is this? The VSC support for c# is miles behind visual studio. Rider isn’t as good either, but it’s certainly better than VSC.

Are you heavily using typescript with a bit of c# or a really tiny code base?

This comment is incomprehensible to me. Do you never refactor code? There are a lot of sophisticated things you can’t do with VSC.

It’s a great editor; but not for c#.

The benefit of using it is absolutely zero unless you’re heavily leaning into the other parts of the VSC ecosystem (like a big typescript code base).

> it’s come a really long way

So has visual studio; and it started off better, and still is.

Rider is too.

I’m happy to die on this hill; if you’re using VSC for c#, it’s because it’s free, and perhaps good enough for some things; not because it’s better than the alternatives.

Even if you’re stuck on a Mac, I can't believe you honestly find VSC an acceptable editor after using rider.

All I can say is I certainly do not agree.

andybak 10/24/2024|||
If Visual Studio has better support for C# than Rider, why does Resharper exist?

Not trying to start an argument - I've never used Visual Studio with C# (I was a PyCharm user when I started learning Unity so Rider was an obvious choice) but I always assumed that Rider was better - because it was managing to survive as a paid product so it must have had an edge.

recursive 10/25/2024|||
> why does Resharper exist?

I've wondered this for a long time. Last time I looked at the feature list, it seemed to consist mostly of stuff that was already in VS. The rest was stuff for which I could not fathom any practical utility.

Some people love it. When I've asked them why, they mention features that are in VS, but they just didn't know it.

So if you figure it out, let me know.

yungporko 10/25/2024||
i like resharper just because it has some nice suggestions for cleaning up code that visual studio doesn't have. i probably wouldn't pay for it on its own, but it comes with the package i have for rider so i do use it.
tester756 10/26/2024||||
>If Visual Studio has better support for C# than Rider, why does Resharper exist?

Back in the days there werent free extensions like Roslynator

tokinonagare 10/24/2024|||
> If Visual Studio has better support for C# than Rider, why does Resharper exist?

I'm pretty sure Resharper existed before Rider. Also, the existence and utility of the plugin is a mystery to me. I tried it once and it adds so many attention disturbing behavior especially in the bottom bar that I disabled it immediately. None of its feature was every needed in the company I work, and the Rider crowd there don't seems to produce better code than those using VS.

andybak 10/25/2024||
> the Rider crowd there don't seems to produce better code than those using VS.

I'm not sure that's a valid way to evaluate the utility of an IDE!

CharlieDigital 10/24/2024||||
100k lines of C# in 8 projects, 40k lines of Vue SFCs in 2 workspaces, 39k lines of TypeScript in a monorepo.

I use it every day on a 2021 M1 MacBook Pro 16GB/512GB.

Works completely fine to the extent that I just let my Rider license lapse.

wokwokwok 10/24/2024||
Well, perhaps anyone who’s thinking about it can do their own research in /r/vscode and read about how much people love c# dev kit.

TLDR; it’s not just me.

I’m glad you like it and have found a workflow that works for you. I think you’re crazy.

CharlieDigital 10/24/2024||
My point isn't that "people shouldn't use Rider"; I myself had a Rider license and it's a GREAT IDE.

My point is "you shouldn't skip C# because you think you need a license for an IDE to be use it professionally".

Devs who are already using VSC for doing front-end and want to try full stack can absolutely do heavy lifting in VSC.

I let my license lapse not because Rider wasn't a great IDE, but because VSC is fully capable for backend and fullstack work.

    > I think you're crazy
I'll take that as a compliment :D. Even back in 2021 when I was invited to present at the Azure Serverless Conf[0], I chose VSC for my session to showcase that anyone could start developing .NET without expensive licenses (a common myth).

[0] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/shows/azure-serverless-con...

VMtest 10/25/2024||||
good engineers choose their own tools

otherwise, they are bad engineers, period

keep your strong opinions to yourself and don't be judgemental

you can, however, criticize their workdone instead of their tools

WolfeReader 10/24/2024|||
"What fan boy nonsense is this?" Good way to start a VS fanboy post.

Personally, I have written APIs in C# from scratch to production entirely in VSC; your assertion that "It’s a great editor; but not for c#" is literally false in my lived experience.

Rider is also good. And since I run Linux, VS took itself out of my consideration entirely.

MangoCoffee 10/24/2024|||
I use Visual Studio from work and personally subscribe to JetBrains.

For those developing commercial software on a budget, Visual Studio Code is an excellent option.

Although it lacks some features of JetBrains and Microsoft tools, pairing the .NET CLI with VS Code can still deliver impressive results.

if you can afford $10 monthly, integrating GitHub Copilot with VS Code can elevate it to a fancy, lightweight IDE

neonsunset 10/24/2024||
That's my exact workflow nowadays. The best text editing experience with GH copilot and lowest battery footprint makes using a VSC a no-brainer. It's especially nice since it also happens to be the choice for Rust, so I experience very little friction, not having to switch an editor and using capable CLI of .NET and Cargo.

For advanced scenarios Rider still rules, and this change is a very welcome one. I hope it will help with promoting .NET as the first choice where teams historically picked Go (which is worse).

CharlieDigital 10/24/2024|||

    >  I hope it will help with promoting .NET as the first choice where teams historically picked Go (which is worse)
Curious in what ways specifically you think Go is worse than .NET and what contexts?
neonsunset 10/25/2024||
With discipline, it is both more expressive by having a better and more powerful type system, and faster by allowing much finer control over code execution, data layout and allocations as well as offering actual GC tuning options. .NET's compiler is much more capable too, and the rate of improvement is not slowing down. It also has much richer package for writing line-of-business applications productively. The main advantage of Go used to be and still is "culture". But once you apply such minimalism mentality to C#, it gives a much better end result.
tester756 10/26/2024|||
Why battery footprint would be even relevant for day2day?

Do you develop outside?

wiseowise 10/24/2024|||
> - Edit - Looks like Webstorm (JS/TS editor) is also free now.

Wow. VSCode finally got them, it seems.

no_wizard 10/24/2024|||
I think JetBrains is struggling a bit to land their next gen editor Fleet.

It came out swinging with a very early open beta and seemed to market itself as the coming replacement for all their IDEs, because all their IDEs would become plugins of sorts under the Fleet architecture, but have a dramatically easier API to develop against for plugin authors, be snappier, load quickly be less memory intensive etc.

From the looks of it now they changed the wording and messaging around Fleet as a longer term project and they seem to have gone back to mainly doubling down on pushing their bespoke IDEs, which ain’t a bad thing

NoahKAndrews 10/28/2024||
Did that ever imply Fleet was going to be finished in the near-term?
innocenat 10/25/2024|||
Almost (or maybe even all) of what WebStorm does, you can do it in Rider or RustRover (which is also free). So it make no sense to not also make WebStorm free.
pjmlp 10/24/2024|||
I also expect this to put pressure on C# DevKit team, right now its purpose is to only be good enough to drive people into Windows/VS, eventually.

Rider is the only comparable DX to VS outside Windows.

aithrowawaycomm 10/25/2024|||
Sadly I cancelled my Rider subscription this year because AFAICT they've stopped supporting F#, it hasn't worked well for at least two years and has only gotten worse: crawling performance, lots of erroneous red squiggles, no IDE support for later .NET features. Maybe Visual Studio is better than it was a few years ago, but these days I just use emacs, and the MS F# team seems to prefer VSC over VS.
neonsunset 10/25/2024||
This is complete nonsense. Rider has first-class F# support and a sizable faction of employees internally who love and use it.
aithrowawaycomm 10/25/2024||
Do you actually use Rider for F#, or are you just repeating old wisdom? Your comment is rude and unhelpful, because I gave my direct experience as to why I stopped using Rider, and you responded with an empty platitude. Yet you did so in the most thoughtless, dismissive way imaginable, as if I was simply lying.

Rider was first-class a few years ago but has gone badly downhill, and it does not support F# on newer versions of .NET - or at least it didn't in June 2024 when I cancelled my subscription.

g8oz 10/24/2024|||
RustRover (Rust ide) is also now free for non commercial use
LeFantome 10/24/2024||
Oh. Very cool. Thanks for the heads up.
nazka 10/27/2024|||
Webstorm is free but only for noncommercial use.

On a side note, if you code in JS/TS and you are a full-stack or backend dev, use PhpStorm instead. It is essentially Webstorm (+ PHP) + all the database tools. Those tools are one of the big reasons I bought their software with my own money.

AmazingTurtle 10/24/2024|||
both webstorm and rider is free now? why am I still paying. been a customer for years but all I used was rider and webstorm.
progforlyfe 10/24/2024||
free for non-commercial use.
spuz 10/24/2024||
What is the difference between Rider and Resharper?
memsom 10/24/2024|||
Rider is an IDE that replaces Visual Studio and includes the resharper engine built in.

Resharper is a plug-in that is hosted by Visual Studio.

Resharper in Rider is pretty much the same as in VS, but in Rider it is native and always feels snappier to me.

eterm 10/24/2024|||
VS + Resharper is painfully slow. Rider is refreshingly fast.
jonathanlydall 10/24/2024||
I recently upgraded my laptop and finally VS with Resharper is blazingly fast.

My old laptop was a an 8th gen i7 with SSD and 32GB of RAM.

New one is a 13th gen i7 with an NVMe and 64GB of RAM.

I suspect the biggest difference is the NVMe. It probably also helps that I’m using Windows 11’s Dev Drive where I’ve enabled all the policies mentioned in their docs to minimise the impact of Windows Defender.

And finally, so much RAM means Windows gets to keep a lot of my working files cached.

adra 10/25/2024||
Certainly any poorly configure av scanners will turn even the best computers into a heaping pile of garbage. A lot of people abandoned windows development not because the platforms were bad, but because corporate av policy was always scan everything and the performance became unbelievably slow. Now, it's so extreme, you can't enev get a windows (or shocked, Linux) requisition in so many dev shops.
HatchedLake721 10/24/2024||
WebStorm too

https://blog.jetbrains.com/blog/2024/10/24/webstorm-and-ride...

hbn 10/24/2024||
Oh that's awesome!

I'm a huge fan of the JetBrains IDEs - the way it understands code relieves so much mental overhead when tracing through my code, finding usages, refactoring, etc. It's one of the rare pieces of software I actually enjoy using. I just can't justify the cost for personal use for the amount I use it, and the fact that I've never really monetized a side project.

Super happy they're making this move. I think there's good logic to getting people hooked with free personal use so they can convince their company to buy licenses for everyone at work.

Timon3 10/24/2024|||
Hm... I'm not sure whether this is a good or bad sign.

I've been a Jetbrains user & proponent for many years, with most of my usage in WebStorm. But over the last ~2-3 years I've faced more and more bugs, some sitting open for weeks and months. Just for a short selection:

- The autocomplete popup sometimes froze the IDE completely (and killing the process caused minutes of data loss), open for close to a year[0]

- Since two months ago, the Typescript language server fails to start in Vue projects (due to a broken update by the Vue team). A fixed version of WebStorm was released yesterday, in the meantime you were apparently expected to search for the error message, stumble upon the YouTrack page, and apply a workaround[1]

- Performance is abysmal in a larger React MUI project, think 10-15 seconds for feedback on code changes, sometimes errors just stick around for a good minute or more[2]

- In some situations WebStorm makes autocomplete suggestions that aren't allowed - think effectively a type T with keys K | L, where Omit<T, K> leads to only suggesting K properties, while removing the Omit makes it suggest both K and L properties

- After updating from 2024.1.X to 2024.2.Y, the window had no buttons for minimizing/maximizing anymore. Now, this was partially caused by my environment, but after I found a workaround it was closed as "Third Party Problem". Still feels like a regression to me, since my environment did not change.

These are some of the more memorable ones from this year, but it feels like there's a new one every week. I'm pretty close to dropping my subscription, and this news doesn't fill me with confidence that the necessary investments in Q&A will be made.

[0]: https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/JBR-6171/Random-freezes...

[1]: https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/WEB-68756/Vue-LS-2.x-Co...

[2]: https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/WEB-59766/Very-slow-cod...

exceptione 10/25/2024||

  I'm pretty close to dropping my subscription, and this news
  doesn't fill me with confidence that the necessary investments
  in Q&A will be made.
... or Jetbrains is trying to get more paying customers in, so they can get these issues resolved.
Timon3 10/25/2024||
That could be the long-term approach, but in the short-term it will only lead to fewer paying customers. It doesn't help me if the issues start getting resolved in 2-3 years - the editor is barely usable right now, and I won't wait another year.

And should they actually lose me, I won't be coming back unless they make amazing improvements that are years ahead of any other editors to win.

judge2020 10/24/2024||
This is pretty huge since web technology has always been the “paid tier” for JB products
0x073 10/24/2024||
Webstorm is now also free for non commercial use

https://blog.jetbrains.com/blog/2024/10/24/webstorm-and-ride...

laristine 10/24/2024|
I couldn't believe it. WebStorm is easily among the best IDEs for web work (some of my coworkers would say the best) today.
mattlondon 10/24/2024||
Genuine question with an open mind: why would I use this and not vscode?

I know people complain about lag in vscode but I have personally never experienced/noticed any. So with that in mind what does rider give that vscode cannot?

jw1224 10/24/2024||
I’m a PhpStorm user so not familiar with Rider specifically, but in my experience JetBrains IDEs are exactly that: Integrated Development Environments. Whereas VSCode is more of a code editor first and foremost.

There’s tons of overlap between the two, and for casual development VSCode will usually be fine. But as a professional I rely on IDEA to make a living, and it rarely lets me down.

95% of everything I could ever need comes out-of-the-box, so I don’t need to go plugin hunting (though there is a broad range of IDEA plugins too). In fact the IDEA plugins are cross-compatible, so plugins for Rider will work in PhpStorm, PyCharm, Rubymine, etc.

The refactoring is outstanding, and leaps beyond what VSCode can do it. Basically it just understands my code like a real developer would. Not just simply checking syntax, but understanding project structure, naming conventions, coding styles, and more.

PhpStorm gives me access to a full debugger, with inline breakpoints and execution step controls. “Find Usages” is incredibly thorough and even understands dynamic symbol names in many cases.

Also I get a full MySQL and Redis client, right there in the UI. I can click on strings which refer to column names in my code, and they’ll appear in the DB panel instantly.

At the end of the day these are power-user features, but I’m glad to have them and feel significantly more productive in a JetBrains IDE. Embracing static analysis and a full IDE was probably the single most beneficial upgrade to my skills and career.

Contortion 10/24/2024|||
I've tried VS Code and Haystack (based on VS Code) for writing PHP and I just couldn't stand it after having used PhpStorm. Basic things like copying variables, indenting, moving lines into if statements, multiple cursors etc. just aren't intuitive in VS Code when writing PHP and a lot of the things I can do in PhpStorm with the press of a button just aren't possible.

I really hope they move PhpStorm to the same payment model as Rider so I can also use it for my own non-work projects.

no_wizard 10/24/2024|||
Last time I tried using Php with VSCode it couldn’t even do basic autocomplete or imports.

Granted it’s been 2 years but has it evolved since then even?

PhpStorm was superior out of the box as recently as 2 years ago, is another way of putting it

ezst 10/24/2024|||
My very personal opinion is that LSPs haven't contributed very much in the area of turning text editors into cohesive and integrated development environments that I enjoy using. One still gets to spend a lot of time and energy fishing for the right extensions, some with overlapping or incompatible scopes and capabilities. And this to be repeated for every project, framework and language. That's very ad-hoc, unsatisfactory, and the extent to which plugins can "do their thing" is generally superficial and limiting, setting the bar very low for what's possible to do (an example of that is how many plugins inform about their state via dumps of logs into ever piling and popping up consoles, this is very distracting and suboptimal).

The other paradigm is to have actual tooling and UX specialists having put time and effort curating a developer experience that is as smooth and distraction free as possible. And in my experience with the JetBrains IDEs, that doesn't even come at the cost of extensibility (you still have support, either official or community-based, for esoteric stacks and languages, and those can piggyback on the more sophisticated and adequate UX palette).

What should be the deciding factor is the resource consumption, then: if you end up with a less refined and less capable LSP+Extension enhanced text editor, it better be lightweight, right? Well, here again it's pretty clear that those LSPs and Extensions are everything but that, and not only JetBrains IDEs start fast (which was a big area of focus recently), they also respond better using comparable resources.

Just to be clear, I don't hate vscode, I have it installed, but the extent I use it is very limited because it sits in this uncanny valley where it's too bloated for one-off editing of small things like config files (for which I use vim) and editing whole projects folders (for which it's far from delivering as good an experience as an IDE)

cageface 10/25/2024|||
Every time I decide to try a Jetbrains IDE again I give up after a few days. They're always eating insane amounts of RAM and lagging hard while indexing my code again and again and again.
ezst 10/25/2024|||
Indexing is IO-heavy and does slow things down, that's the nature of it (and Windows is dramatically bad at that), but they have improved quite substantially in this department recently: whole indexes of large libraries/runtimes can be fetched from the internet so your computer won't be the billionth device to re-index the whole JVM, the IDEs are starting faster, and more features are being made available while indexing in progress (giving less of an impression that "nothing works" when opening a project).
consteval 10/28/2024|||
The solution is to use an NVME SSD and stop programming on Windows.

NTFS is painfully slow for many-files type use cases. Unfortunately, many-files describes most codebases. Git clients on Windows are also painfully slow for this reason.

cageface 10/29/2024||
In fact I only use Apple Silicon macs, where the issue is still quite evident.
consteval 10/30/2024||
Not sure what to tell you, this should be solved on Macs. I'm pretty sure their SSDs are very fast. Although - be aware, the smaller capacity ones are about half the speed. They don't tell you that.
wiseowise 10/24/2024|||
> What should be the deciding factor is the resource consumption, then: if you end up with a less refined and less capable LSP+Extension enhanced text editor, it better be lightweight, right? Well, here again it's pretty clear that those LSPs and Extensions are everything but that, and not only JetBrains IDEs start fast (which was a big area of focus recently), they also respond better using comparable resources.

What kind of nonsense is that, lmao. JetBrains IDEs absolutely choke on our Java monorepo out of the box and you have to rely on huge hacks to make it work. While VScode works just fine and stays responsive while indexing in background allowing to move around and modify files without any lag.

And GOD FORBID you close it, open it again and be greeted with 30 minutes of “indexing”. Their tooling is so great, that they had to migrate their homebrew Java tooling in CLion to clangd (C++ LSP) based indexer.

Android Studio is another level of awful and if someone would release Kotlin LSP I’d migrate in an instant. But of course JetBrains won’t release it, because it doesn’t drive IDE sales.

ezst 10/25/2024||
> What kind of nonsense is that, lmao.

I mean, immense corporate codebases is the bread and butter of IntelliJ Idea and where it has a reputation to shine. I don't doubt that you are commenting in good faith, but the exact opposite of your experience is what most people have been saying about it over the years. Have you considered reporting the issue to them?

My experience of vscode LSPs across several languages is that they too use many GBs of RAM over time, just what you would expect from an IDE (and not from a text editor), while delivering pretty poorly feature-wise (unlike idea-based editors, I can't trust vscode to know how to rename variables across languages e.g. from models into templates/SQL, and that's a pretty essential bar to cross in my book).

switch007 10/24/2024|||
I've never understood the value proposition of vscode:

"Download an editor and install a random collection of dodgy looking plugins from random authors that will get you maybe 80% of the functionality you want

Enjoy watching the plugins downloading random .exes from all over the place

Any semi-advanced functionality is hidden in a complicated command palette system and a plethora of JSON files

Groovy support? Haha! You're funny

Need to view data in other format than a list/tree view? Get fucked

Good luck!"

wiseowise 10/24/2024||
> Groovy support? Haha! You're funny

Thank God at least someone speeds up eradication of this abomination from mainstream ecosystem.

ActionHank 10/24/2024|||
It's difficult to quantify, but to me (large C# & TS projects) the difference between working in Rider vs VSCode is the difference between Notepad and VSCode.

The difference is big.

Also, often I think to myself "I wish feature X was available", only to find that it is and has been for a while in Jetbrains products.

evoke4908 10/25/2024||
I think I've only installed five plugins ever in Jetbrains. All for totally reasonable things like embedded development and debugging.

There's no real need for any plugins because everything I need for my workflows is included out of the box.

It even has support for build agents in docker or bare metal either locally or remote. It includes remote GDB debugging. I can with a single button launch a docker container on a remote server which cross-compiles, uploads the binary to my tablet, launches the app with GDB attached and gives me normal debugging tools including breakpoints and a console. All out of the box with no dependencies required apart from docker.

butz 10/24/2024|||
I've ditched PhpStorm licence quite a while ago after I stopped working with PHP. Tried using VS Code for personal JS projects, but I had to install a few plugins to make it more efficient and still having a strange issue on Linux, when Terminal panel is open, whole code editor feels sluggish. I don't really like how IntelliSense works on VS Code, but that's on me, as there's a plugin or some setting somewhere to fix it. Also VS Code creates several strange directories in my $HOME directory, even when running in portable mode. From application size perspective - VS Code is marginally smaller, and starts a bit faster than IntelliJ IDE. But SublimeText is even smaller and runs circles around big IDEs, not to mention how good it is at handling large text files. At this day and age it comes to personal preference. It is great that new developers have a wide choice of IDEs freely available.
mattlondon 10/25/2024|||
Replying to myself:

Interesting to see so many comments talking about extensions, and how you don't need to install any.

In vscode I only have the remote development extensions installed, and I think those come "built in" anyway. I just use a vanilla clean vscode install and its an absolute pleasure to use.

If extensions (or lack of) are the main reason given for not using vscode, then for me at least as someone who does not use extensions in vscode and just use it "as is", there seems to be no benefit.

I guess this lack of any actual incremental value to the average typical end user of vscode (i.e. someone who can just use vscode as-is without needing to install loads of plugins and customizations...) is why they are now giving rider away for free.

zuhsetaqi 10/28/2024||
What exactly do you use VS Code for?
AuryGlenz 10/24/2024|||
For Unity, the integration just works and works well.
guytv 10/24/2024|||
Superior: * Debugging * Refactoring
corytheboyd 10/24/2024||
Specifically, out of the box, these things work, and work exceptionally well. In my experience you can get 80% of the way there in VSCode, but it requires compromise and time, which I’m personally willing to throw money at to make go away.
raincole 10/25/2024|||
It integrates all the components you need for Unity development very well (I haven't used it with Godot or Unreal yet).

The old saying: there are no IDEs, only code editors and Jetbrains products.

kdnsndndj 10/24/2024|||
They are completely different products?

One is an IDE, the other is an editor. If you want an editor, of course you will not be happy if you use an IDE

johnfn 10/24/2024||
The claim that VSCode was just an editor seemed flimsy the day it was released. Now, it is absurd.
switch007 10/24/2024||
DE perhaps, with some effort. Not very I
pjerem 10/24/2024|||
Honestly ? It’s hard to describe. It just works. C# solutions ? You have them. Git ? You have it. Jira ? Integrated. Want your branch to be named after your jira ticket ? It’s built in. A missing .NET framework ? You can install it in one click.

You don’t have to install any plugin to be productive. Though there is a rich ecosystem of plugins but it’s more to allow you to install "bonus" integrations and features where in VSCode it’s necessary because you basically have to build your own IDE. If you don’t install anything, it’s like VS : open your project, click on build, it’s built.

Just try it, in the first start you’ll be asked which keyboard bindings you want to use, just choose VSCode and you’ll feel at home.

madeofpalk 10/24/2024|||
Rider is so much smarter than anything Microsoft has made. It was much better IntelliSense-like features than Visual Studio/code.
urbandw311er 10/24/2024|||
If you mean for .NET development, there’s still light years between vscode and this. Whereas .NET extensions for vscode are still in their infancy, Rider has been creating a comprehensive IDE for .NET to rival the full edition of Visual Stdio for years. We are talking full Solution file support, Nuget, majorly advanced refactoring via Resharper, pretty much everything you could wish for. And it runs on a Mac!
seabrookmx 10/24/2024||
It sounds like you haven't used the C# extensions in a while.

VSCode has Solution File and Nuget support with the C# Dev Kit. Refactoring isn't bad either though not as featureful as I remember from Resharper.

urbandw311er 10/25/2024||
Cool - vscode is nice and I use it all the time for other stacks, but - for .NET - relying on an ecosystem of third party extensions is never going to provide that unified experience that you get from a purpose-built IDE. Try both and you’ll see what I mean. The love poured into Rider is obvious.
wiseowise 10/24/2024|||
> I know people complain about lag in vscode but I have personally never experienced/noticed any.

Start using JetBrains products - you’ll experience many.

And before I get rained with downvotes I’ve been using JetBrains on various machines for over 10 years. From netbook with Cameron and 2GB of RAM to M1 Pro and M3 MacBooks with 32 GB of RAM.

metalliqaz 10/24/2024|||
I believe the JetBrains equivalent of VSCode is Fleet, which is already free. In other words, their code editor.
popcalc 10/24/2024||
It runs on Linux. That’s enough for me..
Loocid 10/25/2024||
So does VSCode though. Are you thinking of Visual Studio?
popcalc 10/28/2024||
VS code compared to studio for dotnet dev is comparing a tractor to a trike.
Loocid 11/1/2024||
I agree, but the comment you are replying to was asking for the differences between VSCode and Rider. "It runs on Linux" is not one of those.
9cb14c1ec0 10/24/2024||
JetBrains licenses are one of the few software licenses that I pay for. Their IDEs have the features I need while keeping the UI from getting in the way.
ezekg 10/24/2024|
I really, really wanted to like and use their IDEs (esp their Ruby 'intellisense' or w/e), but the lack of popular theme support kind of killed it for me. I wanted my IDE to look like my VSCode editor, but, at least a few years ago, that wasn't really possible since iirc there were only a handful of theme options.
martypitt 10/24/2024|||
They revamped the IDE a while back, it now feels much more VSCode-esque.

Theming has moved on a fair bit too...

gjvc 10/25/2024||
They revamped the IDE a while back, it now feels much more VSCode-esque.

biggest mistake they have made in a while.

mdaniel 10/26/2024||
Arguably the 2nd biggest: the biggest was when they made that shit mandatory, in that I can no longer go into Settings and uncheck "New UI". The breadcrumb placement[1] alone almost made me rage revert to 2023.something since it was so instrumental to my workflow. Maybe by next Oct I'll have retrained my brain to look in the new location, but goddamn was it that important to them?

1: yes, I am aware of the Setting that says "breadcrumb placement = top" and I am also aware it does absolutely nothing. I'm currently too burned out on their process to open a YouTrack about it

luckylion 10/24/2024|||
You can theme it yourself without too much hassle. I like my dark mode to be black rather than grey, and just made it do that, and it just works. It took an hour or three to understand the process because I'm not a Java person and am not familiar with any of the tooling, but then it was super easy.

This was a few ago, so they may have improved that part by now, I've just carried my theme over the updates.

p0w3n3d 10/24/2024||
Regarding free non-commercial use in Jetbrains you need to accept that you'll get checked (not specified how, but I guess they will scrape your HDD? Or what?

  It’s also important to note that if you’re using a non-commercial license, you cannot opt out of the collection of anonymous usage statistics. This is similar to our Early Access Program (where statistics is opt-out) and in compliance with our Privacy Policy
jchw 10/24/2024||
If you are willing to trust their own documentation, there is documentation about what is sent with anonymous usage statistics in Jetbrains IDEA IDEs:

https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/settings-usage-statistic...

That said, if you mean "checked" as in checking for compliance, I don't think anonymous usage statistics are for that. For that they would need to not be anonymous. If they could identify who was improperly using the community versions, it would break the pinky promise of anonymity. (And for the record I personally doubt they are secretly correlating anonymous usage statistics, but if they were, using them for license compliance would involve either revealing that they did this or at least parallel construction.)

That all said, I think everyone will just have to form their own opinion on whether to trust their statements and whether this is acceptable.

graypegg 10/24/2024||
If I had to guess, there probably isn’t any direct monitoring of commercial-ness in the IDE, but also guessing there’s Jetbrains employees watching for public statements that mention/screenshot a Jetbrains product and will contact the business if their company is not on file. Only need a few hits to make that worth while.
p0w3n3d 10/25/2024||
I have company laptop and wanted to try writing something in rust (I found this on RustRover page) but I believe this violates my company's policies. However TBH I don't believe that if data goes somewhere it cannot be deanonymised. I would be more comfortable with clear license "this is my project, you can see it and I am not using it commercially", but not with "you must allow us to send some anonymous data"
jchw 10/25/2024||
I believe IntelliJ IDEA IDEs have a 30-day trial. If you get the trial license and use that instead of the community version it should be entirely possible to never enable telemetry.

Though, I think this still requires contacting a license server (either at your company or at Jetbrains directly) so maybe that doesn't really fix the problem.

ThrowawayB7 10/24/2024|||
It's the dreaded T-word: telemetry. The same sort of thing people get up in arms about in Windows but JetBrains will get a pass here.
hbn 10/24/2024|||
It's not hypocritical to feel different about different types of telemetry from different companies. JetBrains makes software I like using, and hasn't given me much reason to think they're being nefarious. Microsoft makes software I hate using, constantly betrays user's trust, shoves ads where they don't belong, uses dark patterns to trick people into using their services, ignores user defaults to promote their own shit, repeatedly installs software I didn't ask for, replaces working OS apps with shitty replacements that don't work and crash constantly... need I go on?

Windows exists to sell ads and Microsoft services, and no one can go anywhere because they're locked into legacy software, and Microsoft constantly abuses that position. JetBrains IDEs exist to sell themselves to businesses as a productivity tool. They benefit from making it actually good because no one is locked in and they have real competition.

Not to mention an OS has more access to my data than an IDE. If JetBrains suddenly decided they'd bundle a feature in IntelliJ where they constantly record my entire screen at all times, I'd be much more wary about their telemetry.

evoke4908 10/25/2024||||
Except in this case, Jetbrains lets you turn telemetry off and it stays off.

Mandating telemetry for the free version makes a lot of sense. They want to understand how people are using their software so they can improve it. Looking at how someone uses your software before they decide not to buy it seems pretty valuable.

But also I suspect Jetbrains management wants more telemetry period. They've discovered that they don't know how power users work with their software because they've all had telemetry off for years.

DirkH 10/24/2024||||
Its not telemetry its Microsoft + telemetry that people are up in arms over.

Catch JetBrains doing something dodgy enough and there will be a similar shitstorm against them.

sensanaty 10/25/2024||||
I wouldn't trust the psychos at MS to not murder their own families if it padded the bottom like a quarter of a percentage point YoY, you're comparing apples to axe murderers here.
123yawaworht456 10/25/2024|||
windows is a paid product with heavily-integrated spyware and adware
issafram 10/24/2024|||
I'm hoping it's on it's own domain and I can block it with my PiHole
microflash 10/24/2024||
I wish they would allow opt-out for people who have a subscription active on one of the other Jetbrains products.
sebazzz 10/24/2024||
Beautiful. Rider is an awesome a much faster IDE and I use it whenever possible. It is not practical for all projects.

The only behaviour that annoys me a bit:

- Double clicking an identifier should select the full identifier. However, in Rider (as opposed to Visual Studio) it is connected to the CamelHump setting - which is useful by itself. In Visual Studio you can have both CamelHump enabled and “double clicking the identifier selects the whole identifier”.

- Any startup project tasks like maybe a “webpack watch task” is “in the way” when stopping run/debug of your current application. A separate task runner like in Visual Studio would be beneficial.

- If a solution has file templates defined, every user needs to activate/select them manually in the settings. Quite cumbersome.

antaviana 10/24/2024||
The pricing page says the Free version collects anonymous data. I understand the paid versions don’t. Does it say anywhere the kind of anonymous data that is collected in the Free version?
russelg 10/25/2024|
https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/settings-usage-statistic...
lolinder 10/24/2024|
This is also true of WebStorm now, too. Discussion on the announcement:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41935128

More comments...