Posted by LorenDB 10/24/2024
Folks have been similarly complaining about the Ninth for some time, which has its rulings reversed about as often as the Fifth’s [1].
[1] https://ballotpedia.org/SCOTUS_case_reversal_rates_(2007_-_P...
"But both sides do it," they say?
No worries. There's no particular harm in destroying both.
That’s only the recent term.
Scroll down to the first vertical bar graph. Sixth is reversed over 80% of the time, Ninth right behind it. Fifth, Eighth and the State Courts comprise the second cohort in the 70-ish percent range. Note that these are conditional probabilities; we’re observing cases SCOTUS took on.
I'm also not sure why reversals are the metric we are going off of here to decide if a court is partisan/legislating from the bench. You're asserting that as if it's self-evident.
That said, I agree this isnt a contest. "whataboutism" is only useful insofar as it demonstrates that this is not a phenomenon exclusive to either the 5th OR 9th circuits. Having sent that topic to bed, the question is what (if anything) reversals mean.
To me, they simply mean that the courts are in disagreement with the SCOTUS. Circuits have different opinions, just as the supreme justices have different opinions.
I dont think it is unreasonable the presume that the SCOTUS legal philosophy falls between that of the most liberal circuit and most conservative circuits. This is not in of itself unexpected or a condemnation. If every court was in perfect harmony, we wouldn't even need the appeals process.
One can ask if the legal opinions held by the 5th or 9th courts pass the red face credibility test, but I agree reversals alone wont tell you that. you would have to get into the weeds.
That a conservative court overturns the 5th as often as it overturns the 9th is in itself telling.
I'm also not sure why reversals are the metric we are going off of here to decide if a court is partisan/legislating from the bench. You're asserting that as if it's self-evident.
When we talk about Google or Microsoft or whoever doing something shady/unwanted, do we have to list every other major company that also engages in bad behavior? Am I obligated to list every single appellate court with issues or am I allowed to focus on the one we are talking about right now?
Chevron flew right past people's heads, didn't it.
That's why people keep looking to the courts. Congress can't even pass the most fundamental law -- appropriations to keep the government open -- in a timely manner. Everybody is well aware that Congress is incapable of passing any law more pertinent than renaming a post office.
Unfortunately, that's the result of everybody's individual Congressperson doing exactly what they're sent to do. Which is: stop the opposing party's legislators from accomplishing anything.
Pick any mainstream rag and I will show you an op-ed that blames the courts. Pick any popular internet social and I will show you the same.
I'm not saying the courts aren't activist or partisan mind you, but the problem starts with bad laws made by bad lawmakers.
The American legislative system is bizarre.
To begin with, Congress is accorded very little power by the constitution, with most of it resting with "We the people" or the states.
This however, doesn't pattern match with the amount of power some people (typically progressives) _think_ the Congress or government _ought_ to have, or the amount of power Congress _wants_ to have (as much as possible), so we see BS things like the abuse of the Commerce Clause loophole to justify any Congressional intervention.
Now, you'd think that with all this power that they have loopholed their way into, they would actually exercise it, but that doesn't actually happen, because they are permanently gridlocked and can't pass any damn shit unless it's part of a giant 1000-page omnibus bill that has 100 unrelated things clubbed together based on whatever horse-trading they manage to do one day before the govt shutdown deadline.
So what actually happens is that the actual rule-making is done by the executive, in the form of these government agencies, which ideally should be enforcing things that the Congress has passed, but effectively are given pseudo-legal power through a variety of judicial interpretations (eg. the Chevron Doctrine) that can be overturned by the next Supreme Court as trivially as they were written in.
All in all, you get a massively dysfunctional system where regulatory agencies act as effectively unelected lawmakers, with the actual lawmakers doing jackshit, and the judiciary effectively supporting these shenanigans through capricious rulings.
And while doing all this, lawmakers can conveniently ramp on the rhetoric during campaigning because they know they don't actually need to do anything. They didn't even pass abortion-related legislation for 50 whole years, because they could use that division to reap votes every election cycle.
Congress doesn't have universal power, but the power it is explicitly listed is actually a lot broader than you make it sound. Some particularly powerful grants of power include:
1. commerce clause gives power to "regulate commerce...among the several states". As always the wording is vague, but it can reasonably be interpreted to be VERY broad. And it generally has been interpreted broadly. Why does the government have the power to criminalize drugs? Because there's an interestate market for drugs, basically. If you can criminalize possesion of a substance under the commerce clause, you can sure as shit regulate shady subscription practices by national chains.
2. The 13th, 14th and 15th amendments guarantee a bunch of rights and then grants congress power generic enforcement power. Enforcing such powerful and varied rights can reach into a lot of things.
3. Congress can raise and then spend money however it wants. So unless it violates a right, congress can basically empower the executive to do ANYTHING that money can buy.
4. The necessary and proper clause gives power to "make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution". This really encourages broad reading of the explicitly listed powers and is used to justify congressional oversight, applying federal law to all kinds of random situation.
Moreover when it comes to the agency power, they effectively have the COMBINED power of the executive (which they are part of) and whatever powers the legislature has given them.
No law can be made without them. They have tremendous power.
> So what actually happens is that the actual rule-making is done by the executive, in the form of these government agencies
The FTC was literally created by an act of Congress, which explicitly gave them the power to enact rules like this. See my other comment on this page where I like the laws.
Do people simply hear whatever their favorite politics pundit spews and take that at face value? It's so easy to simply look google such things.
It's a brilliant way to specify powers to a legislative body, essentially a nation-state equivalent of Linux's "don't break userspace" directive. In both cases objections can bubble up from the bottom to the top, with courts being the equivalent of a mailing list post, "Hey, this new code breaks my use case! Fucking change it back!"
In both cases one could argue about the implementation matching the aspirations of the concept. But to find the basic concept itself "bizarre" is to signal to the world that you don't understand one of the basic tenants of the constitution.
Second, I _do_ understand the basic tenets (not tenants, btw) of the constitution, that's why I was able to describe them in my comment.
What I am trying to point out is that the Constitution as written is at odds with what a lot of people want (eg. progressives want a more authoritative state, with vaccine mandates as an example), and since they can't change the constitution easily, we have developed a complex web of quasi-legal systems in order to loophole our way around the constitution.
The judiciary and legislature are complicit in this.
The Commerce Clause has been expanded to basically include everything under the Sun (something that should be bothering you if you understand the basic tenets and the spirit of the constitution), which means there is very little left that the Congress cannot legislate on. However, the Congress then actually legislates on very little, sticking itself in permanent gridlock, and actual policy effectively being created ex-nihilo by federal agencies, which should ideally have only been enforcing them.
This was done with the agreement of the courts, but remember they can as easily choose to disagree tomorrow.
I'm a lawyer. Here's a summary from Perplexity.ai, which comports well with my general understanding:
The U.S. Supreme Court defines "arbitrary and capricious" in the context of administrative-agency action primarily through the standards set forth in the Administrative Procedure Act (APA). According to the APA, a court must invalidate agency actions that are found to be "arbitrary, capricious, an abuse of discretion, or otherwise not in accordance with law" 1 3 4.
The arbitrary and capricious standard is applied when reviewing an agency's decision-making process and involves several key considerations:
Consideration of Relevant Factors: An agency action is deemed arbitrary and capricious if the agency has relied on factors that Congress did not intend it to consider, failed to consider an important aspect of the problem, or offered an explanation for its decision that runs counter to the evidence before the agency 2 3.
Rational Connection: The agency must demonstrate a rational connection between the facts found and the choices made. This requires a satisfactory explanation for its action based on consideration of relevant data 6.
Consistency and Reasoning: The decision should not be based on seriously flawed reasoning or be inconsistent with prior actions unless adequately explained. The agency must also respond to relevant arguments or comments during the decision-making process 6.
Zone of Reasonableness: Recent interpretations by the Supreme Court have introduced the concept of a "zone of reasonableness," where agency actions are upheld if they fall within a reasonable range of decisions based on the agency's expertise 4.
I say this as someone who actually builds and sells AI research software - but there’s a time and place for such things.
Dang has said before that HN is not for bots or AI generated content.
As a result, a lot of thoughtful conversation threads are stopped in their tracks.
Not all AI comments are downvoted like this one was, which should tell you that this just wasn't a very good comment, AI or not.
Please tell us your qualifications to judge whether my comment was a good one.
I'm making no judgement(s) at all. I'm observing that it was downvoted and flagged and is now dead, which is the judgement of HN collectively, not my own.
If you feel that your comment is flagged in error, please contact hn@ycombinator.com
It may have been a very fine comment in another context, but it appears to not have been a good comment on HN, as determined by HN. What other metric would apply?
Just write your own comments. You actions in this thread reflect poorly on yourself as a lawyer and upon the entire legal profession.
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
> If purists insist on downvoting AI-assisted answers, I can live with that.
I'm no purist. I have seen AI comments that have genuinely been helpful on here, so I don't know what else to say, other than that I also have had to accept that sometimes HN doesn't roll the way I'd like either, but it's still the best place to post online the vast majority of the time.
To your original point:
> I see no reason to spend non-billable time writing an evanescent answer to a very-general question. Perplexity did a quite-serviceable job in just a few seconds.
I don't think posting on HN is meant to be measured in time, but in impact. I don't come here to read AI comments, but human comments. I'd wager the same is true of nearly everyone here, including you.
I have a feeling that he meant something akin to spam, not to AI-assisted comments addressed to specific points.
Why is that? I flatter myself that it provides useful content for readers, and there's approximately zero chance that it could ever lead to any kind of malpractice liability. (My perspective might be influenced by the fact that I've done a lot of law-related teaching over the course of my career, for both lawyers and non-lawyers, and have never had even a whisper of an issue on that score.)
Doing this in the paid legal advice realm: why not at least ask Westlaw, which your insurance carrier would be less allergic to? Asking a general purpose chat it seems like it’s asking for trouble.
Helping people understand the law: pretty cool however biased I may be.
We're on the same page: I can't imagine giving paid legal advice without doing the usual research and citing the usual cases, for no other reason than to confirm what I think I know.
But good on you for giving layman’s style explanations. I do think that’s good work.
But they didn't do that, AI did, regardless of good intentions. It was just not a good comment in this instance.
The issue to my mind is that AI doesn’t perform reasoning and may give different answers entirely depending on prompts and on sources the AI references, sources that may not be clear to the user or secondary readers.
Other sources have the benefit of having had more eyes on the same content. With enough eyes, all bugs are shallow kind of thinking.
First, you haven't proved up your "frowned upon" premise. It'd be misguided to peremptorily condemn the posting AI-generated answers when they're initiated, and vouched for, by knowledgeable humans. I've been around HN for awhile and am quite skeptical that this is HN policy — if it is, I'd like to hear it from someone official, or at least to get a link to an HN posting. Those who don't like AI-assisted comments are of course free to downvote them.
Second, the alternative might be that the original questioner doesn't get an answer, or at least not one with any indicia of reliability — how many responses have you seen that are prefaced by "IANAL"? As I've said, I am a lawyer, I use my real name, and I'm vouching for the AI-generated answer as a general explanation.
> Your responses now seem like sealioning.
It's not sealioning, it's Socratic method — looking ahead on the chessboard, examining an assertion's logical implications N moves out. That's what lawyers are trained to do from the first day of law school, because it's how legislators, judges, administrators, and their staffs (try to) achieve scalable, sustainable policies and decisions. It's one form of critical thinking.
That would be preferable to AI output on HN. That's the stance that HN and dang have taken, so I'll ask him to chime in in this thread for everyone's benefit.
> IMHO, your peremptory condemnation of posting AI-generated answers — when initiated, and vouched for, by knowledgeable humans — is short-sighted.
It's not my policy. I'm only going off of what I've seen dang say to others, so interpret that accordingly.
> You're of course free to express your opinion by downvoting my comments.
I can't downvote comments that are replies to me, yours or anyone else's. You can't either. No one on HN can. The interface doesn't allow it. I didn't flag your comments either for that matter, because I didn't want to derail our discussion, as you can't reply to a comment that is dead. And that's all I'll say on that matter, because:
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
> Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.
That said, the cable companies could still work around this. The rules seems to still allow "saves," which could include them contacting you the next day to try and reverse your decision.
The save portion of the rule seems to be a loophole the telecommunications companies convinced the FTC to add for them, it sounded like originally those would be blocked.
As far as I'm aware, no humans other than me were really involved with this.
It's being able to trivially downgrade service packages the same way you can upgrade them. That does not involve a major cost like a technician visit.
I think cable boxes change it somewhat, but the last time I had cable and not just cable internet they still had someone come to hook the cable box up. Admittedly, that was fifteen years ago now.
It can still be cheaper to send a guy out on service start to ensure the existing hookup is of sufficient quality (hasn’t degraded or been chewed or cut by the last owner) and the new customer isn’t trying to hook it into their aerial or old satellite dish or something. Or if your records are spotty and aren’t certain there’s an existing hookup.
Needing somebody to show up to connect it made me assume someone disconnected it, but a status check makes more sense.
15 years is lifetimes when it comes to technology capabilities. They world has moved on from that.
I've had techs "need" to come out for cable internet connection setup, but all they did was the exact same thing I would do myself: connect the coax, plug in the modem, and call a number to say "here's the MAC address, it's plugged in". It's such a waste of time (mine and theirs) and money (depends on if they're jackholes who charge a connection fee or if they eat the cost themselves).
Meanwhile, another cable company I subscribed to last year for internet service just mailed me a kit, with QR codes that handled activation. It didn't work right the first time, and there was a number to call; they realized the problem was on their end and fixed it quickly.
I've had cable internet hooked up more recently and still needed a technician, I just stopped getting cable TV about fifteen years ago. Which seems to mirror your experience except last year.
And checking my local providers, I still need to schedule an appointment for a new connection. It seems like it's easier elsewhere.
Also... who cares? If there's regret and then the customer gets charged a reconnect fee, that's life. People need to learn that making decisions without thinking them through can have consequences.