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Posted by LorenDB 10/24/2024

Cable companies ask 5th Circuit to block FTC's click-to-cancel rule(arstechnica.com)
238 points | 207 commentspage 3
mikeyouse 10/24/2024|
Yikes.. of course they filed in the 5th Circuit too. Why pretend there’s any consistent judiciary when you can just forum shop for the most reactionary Appeals court in recent history?
edmundsauto 10/24/2024||
I feel the ACLU or other legal action committee is going to have to DoS this circuit to prevent it. If you can’t get on the docket for 10 years, it becomes less of an option.
Forgeties79 10/24/2024|||
I have nothing to add other than I am so tired of watching the 5th circuit just blatantly legislate from the bench (and in such a partisan way). It's basically a 2nd legislative arm at this point controlled by one political party.
JumpCrisscross 10/24/2024|||
> I am so tired of watching the 5th circuit just blatantly legislate from the bench (and in such a partisan way)

Folks have been similarly complaining about the Ninth for some time, which has its rulings reversed about as often as the Fifth’s [1].

[1] https://ballotpedia.org/SCOTUS_case_reversal_rates_(2007_-_P...

falcolas 10/24/2024|||
Nuke 'em both then. Seriously. Partisan politics, regardless of the side they take, should not belong in the judiciary.
ssl-3 10/24/2024|||
Indeed.

"But both sides do it," they say?

No worries. There's no particular harm in destroying both.

kiba 10/24/2024|||
We should have our judges confirmed by a randomly selected jury.
n8henrie 10/24/2024||||
Not knowing much about this and just going from your link (honestly I don't even know which side the 5th and 9th are on)... 5/10 and 8/10 are not all that close. 5/10 seems to give the 9th one of the lower rates of reversal, given that so many of them are 1/1.
JumpCrisscross 10/24/2024||
> 5/10 and 8/10 are not all that close

That’s only the recent term.

Scroll down to the first vertical bar graph. Sixth is reversed over 80% of the time, Ninth right behind it. Fifth, Eighth and the State Courts comprise the second cohort in the 70-ish percent range. Note that these are conditional probabilities; we’re observing cases SCOTUS took on.

Forgeties79 10/24/2024||
This reads to me like cherry-picking. I don't know why we should just ignore the most recent trends in favor of older ones.
s1artibartfast 10/24/2024||
Because one single term departure from a mean isn't much of a trend. when you have a 17 year data set and a 1 year data set, I dont think it is very reasonable to limit examination to a single year unless there is a reason why that might be different. The most recent year is in the larger data set.
Forgeties79 10/25/2024||
I can concede that somewhat, fair point. Frankly I shouldn’t get bogged down in these numbers because as I said in another comment: I'm not sure how the 9th possibly having issues somehow undermines the problems with the 5th. This is pretty textbook "whataboutism."

I'm also not sure why reversals are the metric we are going off of here to decide if a court is partisan/legislating from the bench. You're asserting that as if it's self-evident.

s1artibartfast 10/25/2024||
Im not asserting anything about partisanship- that would have been someone else.

That said, I agree this isnt a contest. "whataboutism" is only useful insofar as it demonstrates that this is not a phenomenon exclusive to either the 5th OR 9th circuits. Having sent that topic to bed, the question is what (if anything) reversals mean.

To me, they simply mean that the courts are in disagreement with the SCOTUS. Circuits have different opinions, just as the supreme justices have different opinions.

I dont think it is unreasonable the presume that the SCOTUS legal philosophy falls between that of the most liberal circuit and most conservative circuits. This is not in of itself unexpected or a condemnation. If every court was in perfect harmony, we wouldn't even need the appeals process.

One can ask if the legal opinions held by the 5th or 9th courts pass the red face credibility test, but I agree reversals alone wont tell you that. you would have to get into the weeds.

Forgeties79 10/26/2024||
I don’t think that reversals meaningfully tell us anything that answers the question we are engaging in. At best they are a small piece of the equation.
mrguyorama 10/30/2024||||
Who reverses an appellate circuit ruling? The Supreme court does. The Supreme court is objectively more often of the time Conservative leaning.

That a conservative court overturns the 5th as often as it overturns the 9th is in itself telling.

camel_Snake 10/24/2024||||
This is a wonderful source - thank you for providing it.
Forgeties79 10/24/2024|||
I'm not sure how the 9th possibly having issues somehow undermines the problems with the 5th. This is pretty textbook "whataboutism."

I'm also not sure why reversals are the metric we are going off of here to decide if a court is partisan/legislating from the bench. You're asserting that as if it's self-evident.

briandear 10/24/2024|||
And the 9th Circuit hasn’t?
Forgeties79 10/24/2024||
I'd be curious to see where you saw me say the 9th circuit hasn't also engaged in this behavior.

When we talk about Google or Microsoft or whoever doing something shady/unwanted, do we have to list every other major company that also engages in bad behavior? Am I obligated to list every single appellate court with issues or am I allowed to focus on the one we are talking about right now?

23B1 10/24/2024||
Why pretend lawmakers are doing their job when you can just blame the courts?

Chevron flew right past people's heads, didn't it.

jfengel 10/24/2024||
I don't think anybody is pretending that lawmakers are doing their jobs.

That's why people keep looking to the courts. Congress can't even pass the most fundamental law -- appropriations to keep the government open -- in a timely manner. Everybody is well aware that Congress is incapable of passing any law more pertinent than renaming a post office.

Unfortunately, that's the result of everybody's individual Congressperson doing exactly what they're sent to do. Which is: stop the opposing party's legislators from accomplishing anything.

23B1 10/24/2024||
> I don't think anybody is pretending that lawmakers are doing their jobs.

Pick any mainstream rag and I will show you an op-ed that blames the courts. Pick any popular internet social and I will show you the same.

I'm not saying the courts aren't activist or partisan mind you, but the problem starts with bad laws made by bad lawmakers.

elevatedastalt 10/24/2024||
[Note: This will not be an anti-Cable-company screed]

The American legislative system is bizarre.

To begin with, Congress is accorded very little power by the constitution, with most of it resting with "We the people" or the states.

This however, doesn't pattern match with the amount of power some people (typically progressives) _think_ the Congress or government _ought_ to have, or the amount of power Congress _wants_ to have (as much as possible), so we see BS things like the abuse of the Commerce Clause loophole to justify any Congressional intervention.

Now, you'd think that with all this power that they have loopholed their way into, they would actually exercise it, but that doesn't actually happen, because they are permanently gridlocked and can't pass any damn shit unless it's part of a giant 1000-page omnibus bill that has 100 unrelated things clubbed together based on whatever horse-trading they manage to do one day before the govt shutdown deadline.

So what actually happens is that the actual rule-making is done by the executive, in the form of these government agencies, which ideally should be enforcing things that the Congress has passed, but effectively are given pseudo-legal power through a variety of judicial interpretations (eg. the Chevron Doctrine) that can be overturned by the next Supreme Court as trivially as they were written in.

All in all, you get a massively dysfunctional system where regulatory agencies act as effectively unelected lawmakers, with the actual lawmakers doing jackshit, and the judiciary effectively supporting these shenanigans through capricious rulings.

And while doing all this, lawmakers can conveniently ramp on the rhetoric during campaigning because they know they don't actually need to do anything. They didn't even pass abortion-related legislation for 50 whole years, because they could use that division to reap votes every election cycle.

advisedwang 10/24/2024||
> Congress is accorded very little power by the constitution

Congress doesn't have universal power, but the power it is explicitly listed is actually a lot broader than you make it sound. Some particularly powerful grants of power include:

1. commerce clause gives power to "regulate commerce...among the several states". As always the wording is vague, but it can reasonably be interpreted to be VERY broad. And it generally has been interpreted broadly. Why does the government have the power to criminalize drugs? Because there's an interestate market for drugs, basically. If you can criminalize possesion of a substance under the commerce clause, you can sure as shit regulate shady subscription practices by national chains.

2. The 13th, 14th and 15th amendments guarantee a bunch of rights and then grants congress power generic enforcement power. Enforcing such powerful and varied rights can reach into a lot of things.

3. Congress can raise and then spend money however it wants. So unless it violates a right, congress can basically empower the executive to do ANYTHING that money can buy.

4. The necessary and proper clause gives power to "make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution". This really encourages broad reading of the explicitly listed powers and is used to justify congressional oversight, applying federal law to all kinds of random situation.

Moreover when it comes to the agency power, they effectively have the COMBINED power of the executive (which they are part of) and whatever powers the legislature has given them.

SideQuark 10/24/2024|||
> Congress is accorded very little power by the constitution

No law can be made without them. They have tremendous power.

> So what actually happens is that the actual rule-making is done by the executive, in the form of these government agencies

The FTC was literally created by an act of Congress, which explicitly gave them the power to enact rules like this. See my other comment on this page where I like the laws.

Do people simply hear whatever their favorite politics pundit spews and take that at face value? It's so easy to simply look google such things.

focusedone 10/24/2024|||
That's a fairly accurate assessment of how the whole thing works. Grand, ain't it?
jancsika 10/24/2024|||
> Congress is accorded very little power by the constitution, with most of it resting with "We the people" or the states.

It's a brilliant way to specify powers to a legislative body, essentially a nation-state equivalent of Linux's "don't break userspace" directive. In both cases objections can bubble up from the bottom to the top, with courts being the equivalent of a mailing list post, "Hey, this new code breaks my use case! Fucking change it back!"

In both cases one could argue about the implementation matching the aspirations of the concept. But to find the basic concept itself "bizarre" is to signal to the world that you don't understand one of the basic tenants of the constitution.

elevatedastalt 10/24/2024||
We are talking past each other. First off, I am describing the whole scenario as bizarre, not the first sentence of my post. That much should be obvious.

Second, I _do_ understand the basic tenets (not tenants, btw) of the constitution, that's why I was able to describe them in my comment.

What I am trying to point out is that the Constitution as written is at odds with what a lot of people want (eg. progressives want a more authoritative state, with vaccine mandates as an example), and since they can't change the constitution easily, we have developed a complex web of quasi-legal systems in order to loophole our way around the constitution.

The judiciary and legislature are complicit in this.

The Commerce Clause has been expanded to basically include everything under the Sun (something that should be bothering you if you understand the basic tenets and the spirit of the constitution), which means there is very little left that the Congress cannot legislate on. However, the Congress then actually legislates on very little, sticking itself in permanent gridlock, and actual policy effectively being created ex-nihilo by federal agencies, which should ideally have only been enforcing them.

This was done with the agreement of the courts, but remember they can as easily choose to disagree tomorrow.

dctoedt 10/24/2024||
> Anyone with knowledge who can expand this or explain what exactly is "arbitrary", "capricious" or "abuse of discretion"?

I'm a lawyer. Here's a summary from Perplexity.ai, which comports well with my general understanding:

The U.S. Supreme Court defines "arbitrary and capricious" in the context of administrative-agency action primarily through the standards set forth in the Administrative Procedure Act (APA). According to the APA, a court must invalidate agency actions that are found to be "arbitrary, capricious, an abuse of discretion, or otherwise not in accordance with law" 1 3 4.

The arbitrary and capricious standard is applied when reviewing an agency's decision-making process and involves several key considerations:

Consideration of Relevant Factors: An agency action is deemed arbitrary and capricious if the agency has relied on factors that Congress did not intend it to consider, failed to consider an important aspect of the problem, or offered an explanation for its decision that runs counter to the evidence before the agency 2 3.

Rational Connection: The agency must demonstrate a rational connection between the facts found and the choices made. This requires a satisfactory explanation for its action based on consideration of relevant data 6.

Consistency and Reasoning: The decision should not be based on seriously flawed reasoning or be inconsistent with prior actions unless adequately explained. The agency must also respond to relevant arguments or comments during the decision-making process 6.

Zone of Reasonableness: Recent interpretations by the Supreme Court have introduced the concept of a "zone of reasonableness," where agency actions are upheld if they fall within a reasonable range of decisions based on the agency's expertise 4.

binarymax 10/24/2024||
Sigh. We’re here as people asking other people who hopefully have expertise. If we wanted an AI summary we could get it from perplexity ourselves.

I say this as someone who actually builds and sells AI research software - but there’s a time and place for such things.

dctoedt 10/24/2024||
[flagged]
aspenmayer 10/24/2024|||
Here’s the reason:

Dang has said before that HN is not for bots or AI generated content.

CamperBob2 10/24/2024|||
And HNers have interpreted that as, "Any comment that even mentions the output of an LLM is radioactive toxic waste, regardless of its context or its appeal to the audience's sense of intellectual curiosity that is otherwise encouraged by the admins."

As a result, a lot of thoughtful conversation threads are stopped in their tracks.

dang 10/26/2024|||
People may be overreacting to some extent but that's better than succumbing to a deluge.
aspenmayer 10/24/2024||||
No one is stopping conversation. We weren't allowed to have the coversation, because someone would rather outsource their efforts to AI, which isn't thoughtful or inspiring curiosity within the writer, regardless of the perception upon readers. It's lazy and it degrades the discourse because we're not interacting with the author of the comment when we read words that aren't theirs, and allows for those who use AI to simply say that the words were not their own, as if that abdicates them of responsibility for what they post under their own account/username.

Not all AI comments are downvoted like this one was, which should tell you that this just wasn't a very good comment, AI or not.

dctoedt 10/25/2024||
> Not all AI comments are downvoted like this one was, which should tell you that this just wasn't a very good comment, AI or not.

Please tell us your qualifications to judge whether my comment was a good one.

aspenmayer 10/25/2024||
The proof in the pudding is in the tasting.

I'm making no judgement(s) at all. I'm observing that it was downvoted and flagged and is now dead, which is the judgement of HN collectively, not my own.

If you feel that your comment is flagged in error, please contact hn@ycombinator.com

It may have been a very fine comment in another context, but it appears to not have been a good comment on HN, as determined by HN. What other metric would apply?

dctoedt 10/24/2024|||
[flagged]
aspenmayer 10/24/2024||
It's not Ludditism. You're just making low-effort posts that are not appreciated on HN as evidenced by downvotes and past moderator statements. I don't even know what you're arguing for.

Just write your own comments. You actions in this thread reflect poorly on yourself as a lawyer and upon the entire legal profession.

dctoedt 10/25/2024||
Please cite your source for the supposed HN policy. I sometimes answer nonlawyers' questions about how the law works; my answers often attract upvotes. If purists insist on downvoting AI-assisted answers, I can live with that.
aspenmayer 10/26/2024|||
I got this in email from dang just now, but I asked him to chime in so he may have something else or additional to say.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

aspenmayer 10/25/2024|||
I've asked dang to find the citation for us.

> If purists insist on downvoting AI-assisted answers, I can live with that.

I'm no purist. I have seen AI comments that have genuinely been helpful on here, so I don't know what else to say, other than that I also have had to accept that sometimes HN doesn't roll the way I'd like either, but it's still the best place to post online the vast majority of the time.

To your original point:

> I see no reason to spend non-billable time writing an evanescent answer to a very-general question. Perplexity did a quite-serviceable job in just a few seconds.

I don't think posting on HN is meant to be measured in time, but in impact. I don't come here to read AI comments, but human comments. I'd wager the same is true of nearly everyone here, including you.

dctoedt 10/24/2024|||
> Dang has said before that HN is not for bots or AI generated content.

I have a feeling that he meant something akin to spam, not to AI-assisted comments addressed to specific points.

dang 10/26/2024||
There are lot of grey areas; for example, your GP comment wasn't just generated—it came with an annotation that you're a lawyer and thought it was sound. That's better than a completely pasted comment. But it was probably still on the wrong side of the line. We want comments that the commenters actually write, as part of curious conversation between humans.
singleshot_ 10/24/2024|||
I’m a lawyer and I would not be comfortable doing this outside of perhaps the message board context.
dctoedt 10/24/2024||
> I’m a lawyer and I would not be comfortable doing this outside of perhaps the message board context.

Why is that? I flatter myself that it provides useful content for readers, and there's approximately zero chance that it could ever lead to any kind of malpractice liability. (My perspective might be influenced by the fact that I've done a lot of law-related teaching over the course of my career, for both lawyers and non-lawyers, and have never had even a whisper of an issue on that score.)

singleshot_ 10/24/2024||
Doing this in the message board context: very low risk as you said. Don’t disagree at all. Downside risk: lots of downvotes. Who cares.

Doing this in the paid legal advice realm: why not at least ask Westlaw, which your insurance carrier would be less allergic to? Asking a general purpose chat it seems like it’s asking for trouble.

Helping people understand the law: pretty cool however biased I may be.

dctoedt 10/24/2024||
> Doing this in the paid legal advice realm

We're on the same page: I can't imagine giving paid legal advice without doing the usual research and citing the usual cases, for no other reason than to confirm what I think I know.

singleshot_ 10/24/2024||
That’s squared up with me. I would not trust myself to second guess Peplexity without researching and at that point why am I messing around slash wrecking a/c priv?

But good on you for giving layman’s style explanations. I do think that’s good work.

aspenmayer 10/24/2024||
> But good on you for giving layman’s style explanations. I do think that’s good work.

But they didn't do that, AI did, regardless of good intentions. It was just not a good comment in this instance.

dctoedt 10/25/2024||
Would your answer have been different if I'd quoted from — and approved of — say, Wikipedia? or Cornell Law's Legal Information Institute? If not, then your beef is that the comment was drafted by an AI, and only humans should be involved in producing any text that's to appear on HN?
aspenmayer 10/25/2024||
I think that’s consistent with my views and my understanding of HN Guidelines and clarifications by Dang, though I don’t speak for HN.

The issue to my mind is that AI doesn’t perform reasoning and may give different answers entirely depending on prompts and on sources the AI references, sources that may not be clear to the user or secondary readers.

Other sources have the benefit of having had more eyes on the same content. With enough eyes, all bugs are shallow kind of thinking.

dctoedt 10/25/2024||
So it'd have been OK with you if I'd just posted the Perplexity.ai output — which I thought was a very good summary of the law, and I claim to have at least modest knowledge in this area — without identifying it as an AI output.
aspenmayer 10/25/2024||
[flagged]
dctoedt 10/25/2024||
> You'd be posting in bad faith, knowing that posting AI output as your own on HN is frowned upon

First, you haven't proved up your "frowned upon" premise. It'd be misguided to peremptorily condemn the posting AI-generated answers when they're initiated, and vouched for, by knowledgeable humans. I've been around HN for awhile and am quite skeptical that this is HN policy — if it is, I'd like to hear it from someone official, or at least to get a link to an HN posting. Those who don't like AI-assisted comments are of course free to downvote them.

Second, the alternative might be that the original questioner doesn't get an answer, or at least not one with any indicia of reliability — how many responses have you seen that are prefaced by "IANAL"? As I've said, I am a lawyer, I use my real name, and I'm vouching for the AI-generated answer as a general explanation.

> Your responses now seem like sealioning.

It's not sealioning, it's Socratic method — looking ahead on the chessboard, examining an assertion's logical implications N moves out. That's what lawyers are trained to do from the first day of law school, because it's how legislators, judges, administrators, and their staffs (try to) achieve scalable, sustainable policies and decisions. It's one form of critical thinking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method

aspenmayer 10/25/2024||
> The alternative might be that the original questioner doesn't get an answer, or at least not one with any indicia of reliability

That would be preferable to AI output on HN. That's the stance that HN and dang have taken, so I'll ask him to chime in in this thread for everyone's benefit.

> IMHO, your peremptory condemnation of posting AI-generated answers — when initiated, and vouched for, by knowledgeable humans — is short-sighted.

It's not my policy. I'm only going off of what I've seen dang say to others, so interpret that accordingly.

> You're of course free to express your opinion by downvoting my comments.

I can't downvote comments that are replies to me, yours or anyone else's. You can't either. No one on HN can. The interface doesn't allow it. I didn't flag your comments either for that matter, because I didn't want to derail our discussion, as you can't reply to a comment that is dead. And that's all I'll say on that matter, because:

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.

dang 10/26/2024||
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41937792.
boomboomsubban 10/24/2024|
It's not like I have much sympathy for cable companies, but I can somewhat see their point here. Canceling your cable involves real costs, someone has to come to your home and disconnect it. Then if they quickly regret the decision, they'll be charged a not insignificant fee to be hooked up again.

That said, the cable companies could still work around this. The rules seems to still allow "saves," which could include them contacting you the next day to try and reverse your decision.

The save portion of the rule seems to be a loophole the telecommunications companies convinced the FTC to add for them, it sounded like originally those would be blocked.

tombert 10/24/2024||
I forgot to pay my Time Warner Cable bill once. It got disconnected remotely. I paid it and it was re-activated in a few hours.

As far as I'm aware, no humans other than me were really involved with this.

terminalbraid 10/24/2024|||
The thing they are predominantly fighting is not "I don't want cable anymore". It's not likely anyone who wants to terminate the service permanently is unwilling to spend the time to cancel given the cost of sitting on it.

It's being able to trivially downgrade service packages the same way you can upgrade them. That does not involve a major cost like a technician visit.

gurchik 10/24/2024|||
I have never used a cable provider that required a visit to connect or disconnect service - it has always been done remotely.
boomboomsubban 10/24/2024||
I have never had cable activated without a technician coming. I live in a more rural area, but I've also heard other people discuss "the cable guy is scheduled to arrive sometime between 8AM and 4PM."

I think cable boxes change it somewhat, but the last time I had cable and not just cable internet they still had someone come to hook the cable box up. Admittedly, that was fifteen years ago now.

brigade 10/24/2024|||
There has been zero reason to physically disconnect the hookup since analog cable was phased out 15 years ago.

It can still be cheaper to send a guy out on service start to ensure the existing hookup is of sufficient quality (hasn’t degraded or been chewed or cut by the last owner) and the new customer isn’t trying to hook it into their aerial or old satellite dish or something. Or if your records are spotty and aren’t certain there’s an existing hookup.

boomboomsubban 10/24/2024||
You're right that they probably don't disconnect it. Honestly, I've never considered what happens when it's disconnected, as it's always been when I move out of a place.

Needing somebody to show up to connect it made me assume someone disconnected it, but a status check makes more sense.

kelnos 10/24/2024|||
> the last time I had cable and not just cable internet they still had someone come to hook the cable box up. Admittedly, that was fifteen years ago now.

15 years is lifetimes when it comes to technology capabilities. They world has moved on from that.

I've had techs "need" to come out for cable internet connection setup, but all they did was the exact same thing I would do myself: connect the coax, plug in the modem, and call a number to say "here's the MAC address, it's plugged in". It's such a waste of time (mine and theirs) and money (depends on if they're jackholes who charge a connection fee or if they eat the cost themselves).

Meanwhile, another cable company I subscribed to last year for internet service just mailed me a kit, with QR codes that handled activation. It didn't work right the first time, and there was a number to call; they realized the problem was on their end and fixed it quickly.

boomboomsubban 10/24/2024||
>15 years is lifetimes when it comes to technology capabilities. They world has moved on from that.

I've had cable internet hooked up more recently and still needed a technician, I just stopped getting cable TV about fifteen years ago. Which seems to mirror your experience except last year.

And checking my local providers, I still need to schedule an appointment for a new connection. It seems like it's easier elsewhere.

johnnyanmac 10/24/2024|||
I don't sympathize because I remember cable being both 1) long term (yearly) contracts instead of monthly and 2) if you cancel early you still have a termination fee. Those should make up for the need to come to your house to deactivate services.
kelnos 10/24/2024|||
These days, if they need to physically come out to disconnect/reconnect, that's their problem. Mechanisms exist so they can do this remotely; if they're not set up to do that in 2024, they can eat the costs.

Also... who cares? If there's regret and then the customer gets charged a reconnect fee, that's life. People need to learn that making decisions without thinking them through can have consequences.

naim08 10/24/2024||
not sure if you have cable. Its all remotely done