How 'Factorio' seduced Silicon Valley and me

Posted by 005vc16607 10/26/2024

How 'Factorio' seduced Silicon Valley and me(www.ft.com)

423 points | 430 commentspage 2

lowbloodsugar 10/27/2024|

Factorio provides the illusion of achievement which produces happy chemicals in my brain. I will happily forego any other work when getting my fix from factorio. So I stopped playing it and returned to interesting side projects. I confess I have purchased the recently released Space Age expansion, and my productivity is in the toilet again. I’ll probably be done with it by thanksgiving.

jasfi 10/27/2024|

The Civ series does the same thing for me. I've also moved on from games, although I think from time to time they may be useful for stimulating creativity.

herval 10/27/2024||

Lots of comments on this thread in the vein of “I dislike this game because it’s not productive”. My honestly question is… why? Why is “being productive” this goal that has to consume your entire life?

klik99 10/27/2024||

I feel like it and Satisfactory redirects the part of me that creates and looks for novel ways of doing things from something that yields useful byproducts that actually change the world in tiny ways into something that yields nothing but more of itself. And it never really ends. I don't mind useless stuff, I play games, but something about Factorio and Satisfactory both draws me in and makes me feel so empty. I think because it scratches the itch that IRL I have built my career on, but points it towards something useless.

shadowgovt 10/27/2024|||

It's a digital model train set.

At least it doesn't take up the whole basement like the sets previous generations played with.

fphhotchips 10/27/2024||

People look at me funny when I say this, but it's true.

I work in performance - a space where we're thinking about threading, parallelism and the like a lot - and I often say "I want to hire who play with trains". What I mean is "I want people who play Factorio", because the concepts and problems are very very similar. But fewer people know Factorio, so I say trains instead.

I think I know why it's enjoyable even though it's so close to work, too. It's the _feedback_. Factorio shows you visually where you screwed up, and what's moving slowly. In actual work the time and frustration is usually in finding it.

tailspin2019 10/27/2024|||

This is a really good analysis. I love both of those games but I felt exactly the same way as you. For me they are REALLY addictive, Minecraft is too. In a way that isn’t the same as some console games I play - where it’s easier to step away…

lmm 10/27/2024|||

To me it feels like it subverts the desire to build something, in the same way that e.g. porn subverts the desire for sex. You feel like you're making something, but at the end of the day you didn't actually make anything.

oceanplexian 10/27/2024||

For me RTS games are like a drug. I can easily get lost in them and play for 10-15 hours straight due to how my brain is wired. That doesn’t mean I never play them, but I treat it with the same respect as a drug, and use them in moderation.

OJFord 10/27/2024|||

I think because - or to speak for myself, the reason I've never bought/played it, despite being interested - it's similar and yet not productive.

Versus say Call of Duty or whatever that you might lose yourself in, which is also not productive, but bears no resemblance to work.

Pilot communities probably say similar things about flight sims (or flight components of games) that aren't good enough to be useful practice?

oceanplexian 10/27/2024|||

I’m a pilot and lost interest completely in flight sims when I bought my airplane (And I had a maxed out setup, multiple monitors, VR, controls, etc.) The simulator doesn’t capture the real-ness as ironic as that is, of the sounds, smells, vibrations, emotions and so on. In fact during my flight training my experience with simulators imparted a few low-level bad habits I had to work through when it came to operating the controls.

The analog controls in real life are heavier, more raw, somewhat imprecise, and you can feel them knocked around by the wind for example. Night and day difference. It honestly makes the most state of the art simulator feel like you’re operating a NES.

throwup238 10/27/2024||

> In fact during my flight training my experience with simulators imparted a few low-level bad habits I had to work through when it came to operating the controls.

When I first started flying my instructor specifically recommended against flight sims for that very reason.

Now that I have my PPL I only use them to practice approaches for new airports that I’ve never visited before and to familiarize myself with the cockpit layout for planes I haven’t flown before. It helps build some minor muscle memory so I can focus on the harder parts of flying.

herval 10/27/2024|||

It’s not in any way similar to coding, though - it’s a puzzle-solving game. It’s not made to simulate any engineering discipline, nor user to train engineers (like flight sims are)

fendy3002 10/27/2024|||

Yes, factorio is not coding, though it follows some principle of programming, such as input-process-output, workflow, load balancers, modular design, etc. Many players say that the factories often resembles PCB.

but that's the extend of it, you don't have to do heavier programming practice like algorithm, complex state management, input parsing and validation (unless sushi), or anything involving combinators until finishing the 1.0 version.

gizmo686 10/27/2024||||

Factorio is not a puzzle game. You can get puzzle like gameplay if, for example, you are on a map with heavily restricted space, or are trying to micro-optimize something. But that is analogouse to code-golf or microoptimizations in programming, which are fairly puzzle like.

For typical gameplay, the only puzzles you run into are the ones you build yourself into. The name of game is to design your factory in a modular and extensible way so that you do not build yourself into a puzzle.

vanjajaja1 10/27/2024||||

"not in any way similar to coding" is a very strong statement

many people feel it feels similar to coding, in the way you have to slowly refactor designs + work involves a recursive breakdown of tasks + tracing/debugging of issues

mrgoldenbrown 10/27/2024||||

Many people are quoted in the article claiming it is in fact useful for training/educating software engineers.

herval 10/27/2024||

People say the same thing about Sudoku. Or any video game (historically claimed as a hobby that creates coders, just because many coders liked computers at an early age, I suspect)

JoshuaDavid 10/27/2024||

Liking video games sometimes leads to modding video games, and modding video games is a gateway drug for "real" programming.

ghostpepper 10/27/2024||||

You don't find coding similar to solving puzzles in any way?

herval 10/27/2024|||

IMO coding is to solving puzzle the same way as any other discipline (from people management to architecture) is to solving puzzles

falcolas 10/27/2024||||

Not really.

And I think that's mostly due to the lack of constraints in most programming jobs. I don't have to think about throughput or optimizing op codes or almost anything else because our machines have absurd amounts of compute and more memory than most hard drives I've had in my life, the networks are broad and fast, and there's a commercial solution for most of the hard problems.

Maybe I'd think differently if I worked on microcontrollers, but my brief foray into Arduinos and Raspberry Pies didn't feel that much different. I mean, I was using Python on the Arduino. I felt more constrained by the pins than anything else - another problem with several well explored solutions.

wiseowise 10/27/2024|||

Not at all.

I’ve hated puzzle games all my life. Most likely because they’re artificial.

boredtofears 10/27/2024||||

I can think of a bunch of similarities just off the top of my head: throughput management is probably the most critical skill in factorio, and obviously comes up all over software engineering. Managing production belt chains is not unlike managing your program's call stack. Ensuring the right resource reaches a production facility is like managing input types.

jhbadger 10/27/2024|||

What about Zachtronics games like TIS-100 and Shenzhen/IO and Exapunks that are literally about coding (albeit in a simplified assembly language).

derektank 10/27/2024|||

If you subscribe to Peter Singer's views on consequentialism, we all have a moral duty to spend our life maximizing the number of people we save from dying or from immense suffering. Hard to do that if you're not being productive; though I'll be the first to admit nobody does or can live with perfect adherence to that principle

herval 10/27/2024|||

That’s a crazy ascetic view of life. Also completely unrelated to almost anyone on this forum, since it’s unlikely most here are doing any work that saves anyone’s life

lukas099 10/27/2024|||

Theoretically, I guess telling HN people they should be out saving lives could save lives.

philwelch 10/27/2024||||

To his credit, Peter Singer actually is a crazy ascetic.

lukas099 10/28/2024||

Taleb would be proud.

kfajdsl 10/27/2024|||

I mean, you work to make money, and you can donate that money to all kinds of charities that do save lives.

massysett 10/27/2024|||

Just as a productive person sleeps, so too do productive people take leisure. Someone who never sleeps is not maximizing the number saved from dying.

ninetyninenine 10/27/2024|||

Most people are brainwashed by the rat race. They don't realize that all the productivity is worthless.

malux85 10/27/2024|||

Because I am high in trait orderliness, conscientiousness and industriousness.

That’s why startups appeal to me, because they appeal to my nature. It’s in my nature to desire being productive.

So asking “why must you always be productive” on a site full of startup enthusiasts … well, you’re going to get a lot of the same answers

luffy_t 10/27/2024|||

Because it feels like you are building something but you are not. The problem solving in factorio is just tedious like doing manual calculations and you spend a lot of time doing this. It satisfies the problem solving itch for people who haven't faced any challenging problems in their work. Once you start solving these problems in real life factorio just seems pointless. Dont get me wrong i like paying pointless games that require very little to zero thinking (Muscle memory based) that I find satisfying. Factorio is just tedious.

hiAndrewQuinn 10/27/2024|||

Well, because being more productive makes more money, of course. Even if I only capture a small portion of the overall value of it.

Scratch that - I'm using "money" as a proxy for "value". Let's talk value directly. All things being equal, if I can enjoy Activity A totally in isolation, and Activity B equally much, but B leaves something behind which other people can use and get their own value out of, then B is clearly a better or more noble use of my time. Being productive just makes you a better person on net.

Now... I do not choose the "max productivity" strat with each and every second of my being, far from it. I'll probably buy and play Factorio sometime in the next few months, and it will be Steam game #3 added to my library after FTL and Slay the Spire. But I'm not going to sit here and pretend it is somehow better for the world outside of myself to play Factorio rather than e.g. improve the FOSS software I maintain that helps people learn Finnish. Let alone something like contribute to the Linux kernel. This is a philosophical non-question to me.

sureglymop 10/27/2024|||

I think it's perfectionism and impostor syndrome.

When I play games, I never play competitive or intense games, I see it as a therapeutic activity.

I play relaxing single player games like Stardew Valley or Tiny Glade. Cultivate some crops, feed my chicken, pat my cat. No real end goal other than to just relax. I urge anyone to try, especially in co-op with with a friend or partner. It really is therapeutic.

cedws 10/27/2024||

I’d love to do that, but I have a different kind of syndrome where I can’t motivate myself to play something unless I’m playing with other people. Being an adult, I don’t have anyone who can just jump on a game with me on a regular schedule.

I’ve wanted to play Valheim for ages. I even bought the Factorio DLC on launch day and barely played it because nobody wanted to play.

gchamonlive 10/27/2024|||

Maybe because it sometimes feels like work. So if it's kinda like work, why not do something that is also not productive but would either not feel as though it's work or if it's like work, that you can actually enjoy.

For some the latter is facotrio. I tried it myself, didn't get past the demo. I think if I'm doing something not productive in terms of not using my time towards something that actively makes me money, I would feel better doing something like learning another programming language, do some quick projects to automate parts of my life, try to write myself a game or a piece of toy software that challenges me and is also fun to implement.

I think I'd rather do those than play facotrio.

KopyWasTaken 10/30/2024|||

Feeling productive probably makes them feel good. To me, people generally just want to have a good time, and some would like to be remembered. If "being productive" accomplishes that on a day-to-day basis and gives them hope that they'll be remembered for it, then best of luck and have at it. To me it seems like a narrow and boring way to live but to each their own.

theshackleford 10/27/2024|||

I faced my mortality and went the other way. I’ve already achieved more from an extremely difficult background than I ever could have imagined and it turns out when faced with my mortality, that was enough for me.

Everyone has different ways of unwinding and finding meaning, and productivity doesn’t need to be the sole measure of time well spent, at least for me anymore.

Xeronate 10/27/2024|||

Being productive doesn’t consume my entire life but if i’m going to do two things that feel the same I may as well do the one that has other substantial benefits to myself and others. I spend enough time developing that side of myself at work. My free time should go to making myself more well rounded.

grensley 10/27/2024|||

The KPIs of these people's own lives have failed to grow quarter-over-quarter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYvhC_RdIwQ

dartharva 10/27/2024|||

Because this is HN and everyone wants to LARP as their projection of a typical HN denizen. Sometimes this place brings out the LinkedIn in people.

Dig1t 10/27/2024|||

Because we'll all be dead soon and I want to have achieved something great with the short time I was given on this planet.

VonTum 10/27/2024||

If you don't somehow make something useful, or built a thing people actually use, then what was the point of it all? To have fun and then be forgotten?

Though, with AI looming to take this last shred of human dignity too, maybe having a bit of fun along the way isn't such a bad idea.

ivanjermakov 10/27/2024|||

Oh yes, without getting too political, that's just what capitalism is about.

Ironically, Factorio is all about productivity. Mine more resources, produce more items, expand more land and build more factory.

nprateem 10/27/2024|||

I think it's just getting older. Some play is rehearsal for real life. Now I can run a real company, make real money and become a real millionaire instead of a pretend one (or at least try to).

Plus I'm going to die unlike when I was an immortal teenager, so I want to retire ASAP.

If I'm going to game it'll be an FPS or similar when I'm too brain dead to play when-will-i-be-a-millionaire.

barbarr 10/27/2024||

Internalized capitalism

derektank 10/27/2024||

I'm not sure if there's any economic system that could survive long term without people being productive. Just because the farm is collectivized doesn't mean you aren't working from the crack of dawn to sunset

herval 10/27/2024||

Being productive doesn’t require you to be productive non-stop. It’s not good for you and will likely make you far less productive in the long run

Trivia on farming: Medieval peasants worked far less than modern employees (at most 150 days a year). It was obviously harder physical work than sitting in an office all day, but they had plenty of downtime

wiseowise 10/27/2024||

Medieval peasants also had life expectancy of 30 years, what’s your point?

tokai 10/27/2024|||

That is not true. You are passing on an ill informed myth.

herval 10/27/2024|||

How’s that in any way related to the topic?

mft_ 10/27/2024||

I've started and re-started Factorio several times, and always enjoy it... up the point where an automated train network is necessary. Here, I always run into problems, and no amount of researching or fettling of the setup seems to guarantee that my trains work. Sometimes they do... often, I have to drive them manually.

Anyway, if you like Factorio, you might also enjoy Mindustry: simmilar-ish, less constructional depth, more tower-defence and fighting.

hermannj314 10/27/2024||

My train network ran about as good as any multi-threaded code I can write. Perfectly smooth and then a massive deadlock because my mutex locks (rail signals) have a bug.

herpdyderp 10/27/2024|||

The train logistics system in 2.0 has been vastly improved. I was just able to make a “set and forget” train automation system. All I need to do is add more stations and, when necessary, more trains. Before this updated you needed mods for this.

stacktraceyo 10/27/2024|||

Or Dyson sphere program

Hikikomori 10/27/2024||

Satisfactory is also good.

perihelions 10/26/2024||

The primary source is

https://www.ft.com/content/b9e419c6-acf1-420b-8ae6-908feb52c... ("How ‘Factorio’ seduced Silicon Valley — and me")

(Cool fourth-wall breaking moment seeing an HN'er featured in the FT!)

dang 10/26/2024|

(We moved this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41954555)

Three HNers (at least!)

https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=xal

https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=patio11

https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=kentonv

kentonv 10/26/2024||

And the author of the article contacted me because of this old HN comment:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26593117

(Also, I am typing this while alt-tabbed out of Factorio...)

dang 10/27/2024||

Highlighted. Thanks!

https://news.ycombinator.com/highlights

(Unfortunately one would have to scroll back through 3 years' worth of other things to run across it, but it's on my list to fix that and it's squirreled away there for the future)

chasd00 10/26/2024||

I get a real kick out of playing builder games with my son. We played Jurassic park evolution a lot, I would direct contracts and what to build and then we’d discuss and he would build it. Heh it was like being team lead without the pressure and anxiety.

KaoruAoiShiho 10/26/2024||

Is there a better graphics version of factorio? And no I don't mean Satisfactory or Dyson Sphere Program though those are good games in their own rights, I mean something with the same level of depth and camera as factorio.

ekidd 10/26/2024||

I guess it depends on what you mean by "better graphics"? They're upgraded their graphics several times over the years. I'm playing on a 4K monitor and they're using most of those pixels. I can see a small amount of interpolation at full zoom at 4K.

If you zoom in, the graphics are high-res 2D sprites, rendered from 3D models. And the level of detail can be ridiculous. From this week's Factorio 2.0 update (and Space Age add-on), here's an example of the zoomed-in detail: https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-396 See the foundry animations? Those videos are actually slightly more blurred than the in-game version. And the sound effects are synced to specific animation frames.

So the world of Factorio is oftentimes brown and grim and covered in grime, but that's a conscious artistic choice. (Not all of the new planets are brown. Gleba is green and irridescent and frankly creepy.) Similarly, Factorio's 2D nature has allowed the developers to focus on gameplay and quality-of-life more than many newer games in the genre. If you want to build big, intricate factories with complex train networks, for example, Factorio really shines.

If anyone would like a game with 3D graphics, or a different graphics style, try:

- Satisfactory: The 3D world is gorgeous, and Satisfactory shines at "walk around inside your factory and tinker with it." Gameplay-wise, it has only recently gained blueprinting tools that allow working at a medium level of abstraction.

- Shapez 2.0: This is pretty and colorful and full of great little puzzles. It occupies a different part of the game-design space and is just a joy to play.

(Dyson Sphere Project and Captain of Industry also have great gameplay, but I don't know if their graphics are likely to grab people who find Factorio graphically underwhelming.)

solardev 10/26/2024|||

What kinda depth are you missing from DSP and Satisfactory? And what do you mean by "camera"?

There's also Shapez 1 and 2, which is like the essence of Factorio abstracted into shapes and colors. Shapez 2 has more mining and trains and multiple levels.

aithrowawaycomm 10/27/2024|||

Speaking for myself, I love Factorio and can't stand Satisfactory. Even on peaceful mode Factorio has you solving real problems, whereas Satisfactory feels like playing Minecraft on creative mode.

Satisfactory's main issue is that it lets you build in three dimensions without doing any physics to check if that build is mechanically plausible. It's of course not reasonable to expect them to do that physics. But it means that sophisticated logistics/organization problems in Factorio almost always have the same solution in Satisfactory: build more, but upwards. There's no reason to think long-term in Satisfactory unless you have a specific aesthetic vision for a base. Of course, a giant factory-skyscraper with tons of conveyor belts sticking out looks really cool! And Satisfactory being easier makes it more of a chill sandbox game than a tense strategy game like Factorio, so I get why aesthetics-minded people like it. Different strokes.

jcranmer 10/27/2024||||

Not OP, but my guess for what they meant by "camera" is the fact that Factorio is largely a 2D top-down view with relatively little impedance to jumping to another part of the factory to work on it (especially with the QoL stuff added in 2.0). In Satisfactory or DSP, fixing a remote part of the factory--even trying to diagnose problems remotely--is a chore, and there's precious little you can do to actually speed the travel process up.

dpkirchner 10/27/2024||

For DSP I made a rule for myself: if I have to travel to another planet, I have to bring enough material to increase (ideally double) the production of a resource. That made traveling feel more useful.

Course that means I often had oversupply.

mdaniel 10/27/2024|||

Shapez 2 is just stellar. I mean, Shapez 1 was good, but 2 is just awesome (IMHO, of course)

ducttapecrown 10/27/2024|||

The trees move in the wind when you zoom in. Factorio takes sprite graphics to the next level! I felt the same as you, I've always wanted a brighter reskin of Factorio but I've realized it's way tooooo much work for anyone to do for free...

MarkMarine 10/26/2024|||

I haven’t found one, and really as you get later in the game the retro graphics are a blessing. I play on my work Mac (most powerful thing in the house) and I end up having to bail early because I just can’t have a megabase over a certain size, everything grinds to a halt.

dcre 10/26/2024|||

Better in what sense?

philsnow 10/26/2024||

I love Factorio but the graphics look a bit like 1996 SVGA 256-color sprites (edit: by which I mean, I feel like there is noticeable dithering). I haven't played the new "Factorio in space" bits, maybe it gets out of the browns-and-beige color palette a bit more?

marcosdumay 10/26/2024|||

You don't like the design aesthetic?

Because your phrased your question like people that complain about the level of detail. Yes, factorio is ugly (although some trees are beautiful). And yes, that's a design decision.

There are some mods that reskin it. Personally, I don't think any of them are beautiful.

btmiller 10/26/2024||||

I love the art for two reasons:

1. It’s simple, charming, and nostalgic.

2. I view it as a defense mechanism against the onslaught of modern gaming that’s locked in a race to the lowest common denominator (i.e. “Stay away! This game isn’t for you!” ;) )

kzrdude 10/27/2024||||

For Factorio 2.0, there's a lot of graphics that have gotten higher resolution upgrades. Earendel has blogged about working on this. (The Space Exploration mod author, who also works for Wube).

Terrain looks better, trees look better, too, I think it's a pretty big change.

duskwuff 10/26/2024|||

> by which I mean, I feel like there is noticeable dithering

Any chance you have the game set to use 16-bit color?

xsmasher 10/31/2024|||

Factory Town is great, but looks more like a Warcraft 2 era sprite game.

vanjajaja1 10/27/2024|||

i also hated the graphics, but once you play it for a bit the graphics melt away and you can see the beauty in the details they have

bloqs 10/27/2024||

Mindustry

joshstrange 10/28/2024||

Factorio isn’t like work as much as it tickles the same spots on my brain that my favorite parts of work do as well. After putting in 2K+ hours to the game I have the follow suggestions/advice for new/experienced players:

* Play your first game without mods (or very limited QoL mods)

* Don’t use blueprints from others online (at least in your first play through), you can watch videos if you are truly stuck but copy/pasting what others have done can ruin the fun

* Don’t always try to min/max. If that’s what you like then more power to you but I often guess at things or over-provision because it lets me keep playing and not get bogged down

* Before you look for blueprints online use something like Helmod or Factory Planner, blueprints can really ruin the game for me at least. The one exception is belt balancers, those are fine to copy. You can share your own blueprints between games but taking blueprints from online feels too much like cheating. Study them and reproduce them if you need to but I promise it will be more satisfying to do it yourself rather than just plopping down what someone else did.

* Don’t try to build the best or “final” version of something at first. As in, build what you need now and re-evaluate later when it’s not enough. I’ve ruined the “fun” before because I was too hung up on making a production line too complicated/large/etc too early. Don’t make your first smelting operation at a scale you’d use in late game, you’ll build a new smelting setup later and that’s fine.

* Go into the game blind, don’t research “the best way to do X”, your first (few) play throughs will be more fun if explore and learn on your own.

mikewarot 10/27/2024||

Is there a similar game that lets you place logic gates and do computing?

Bonus points if it's open source.

fragmede 10/27/2024||

Nandgame and nand2tetris both take you on a journey from discreet transistors to a computer, in the form of a game. There's also Zachatronics games' TIS-100, and Shenzhen I/O.

vessenes 10/27/2024|||

I'll offer some unsolicited rankings here for these:

Level of fun/addictiveness: Factorio<<<----, Shenzhen I/O, TIS-100, Nandgame, nand2tetris

Best story: Tossup for Shenzhen I/O and TIS-100, Factorio, nand2tetris, nandgame

Best order if you've never coded and want to get tricked into becoming an engineer: Factorio (but hard limit yourself here to no more than 2000 hours), then TIS-100, then Shenzhen I/O, then the Nands. I think Nand2tetris is more accessible as a learning tool.

Upshot - I highly recommend this list. :) Space Age (the Factorio DLC) has me wanting to do nand2tetris in Factorio now. Resisting..

fsmv 10/27/2024|||

nand2tetris is a book/course not a game lol I loved it though

edent 10/27/2024|||

Mindustry. It is open source and allows your to build logic gates.

Works on mobile, desktop, Linux, etc.

ornornor 10/27/2024||

And according to this article [0] (from the mindustry article on Wikipedia), it was a hit on prison-issued android tablets until they banned it.

[0]: https://prisonjournalismproject.org/2024/03/31/popular-video...

blashyrk 10/27/2024|||

A game called Turing Complete. Not open source, though AFAIK

baegi 10/27/2024||

Pretty different to Factorio, but Human Resource Machine is somewhat relevant and very enjoyable

cartoonfoxes 10/27/2024||

Every time I start playing Factorio it's always a matter of time before I'm trying to figure out how to solve factories with VHDL and how to interface Magic VLSI with the game's blueprints. From there it's another day or so before I'm reviewing EE graduate programs and working out how much math I would need to grind.

I had this experience with Eve Online back in the day. The optimization limit horseshoes back into the real world.

Case in point: just reading this thread started me learning about discrete event simulation. Damn you Factorio.

Havoc 10/27/2024|

Personally prefer Dyson sphere but to each their own

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