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Posted by rbanffy 10/26/2024

Ion engines could take us to the solar gravitational lens in less than 13 years(phys.org)
94 points | 79 commentspage 2
credit_guy 10/26/2024|
By far the most realistic engine for deep space travel is the Orion project [1]. You load a large rocket with lots of nukes, and detonate one at a time behind a pusher plate.

Of course, humanity being what it is, we'll never trust each other with the idea of building thousands of nuclear bombs with the "firm promise" that they'll only be used for space travel.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propuls...

jandrese 10/26/2024||
Nuclear explosions release mostly heat and radiation. Are you turning your pusher plate into high energy plasma with the explosion and using that to propel your spacecraft? My gut feeling is that your total ISP for this is disappointing compared to the amount of mass you add for the huge store of nuclear bombs.
credit_guy 10/27/2024|||
> Are you turning your pusher plate into high energy plasma with the explosion and using that to propel your spacecraft?

I think the idea was for the bomb to vaporize a certain amount of propellant. According to wikipedia, the propellant was supposed to be tungsten, but I imagine that any substance would do. For example ice. The vaporized propellant hits the pusher plate and is reflected, resulting in an exhaust jet of very high velocity. The ISP was initially calculated to be between 4000 and 6000 seconds (so 10 times higher than the Space Shuttle), but later when they did the calculations with fusion bombs they concluded that an ISP of 75000 seconds is possible.

vinnymac 10/27/2024|||
Not sure if this is the same idea as the one above, but the ones I’ve heard send the nukes up separately, so that the final launch craft is not impacted by the mass of the nukes. Instead as the craft passes by each nuke, they are detonated, and so it accelerates.
jandrese 10/27/2024||
This plan is somehow even more insane than the original one. Now you have to launch bombs into space many years before launching your craft, then somehow fly in absolute precision with them to pass close enough to get an even push but not so close as to collide.
bibanez 10/26/2024||
This famously appears in the plot of the Three Body Problem scifi series by Liu Cixin!
swasheck 10/26/2024||
didn’t work there, either
nullc 10/27/2024||
How much does scattering from dust between the planets hurt the contrast by making it hard to reject the sun's light?
golol 10/26/2024||
I have my fingers crossed for Starship. If it works as intended all these things will happen.
quink 10/26/2024|
You need vastly different design parameters for Earth orbit, interplanetary and interstellar craft and masses corresponding to each.

Starship is all about a lot of mass to Earth orbit. This is a little mass somewhere between interplanetary and interstellar design parameters. Yes, Starship could put it into Earth orbit, when expendable probably interplanetary, sure.

And it may well help launch it, but that’s where its relevance ends, it’s at the other end of the spectrum of what you would design for. For example, at this corner of the design space, chemical propellants aren’t a thing.

golol 10/27/2024||
>And it may well help launch it, but that’s where its relevance ends.

You can expand in parallel. If Starship works you can launch 100 spacecraft instead of 1, or in other words, you can expand your system by a factor of 100 "in parallel" and hence increase whatever you get from that small payload margin by a factor of 100.

Besides that there are other approaches like laser array + photon sail which more directly benefit from mass to LEO.

marcosdumay 10/26/2024||
Just had to do the calculation.

With 3.5% enriched uranium, about 1/8 of that mass on the power supply is fuel.

Yeah, it's not impossible. But nuclear reactors aren't usually anywhere near 7 times heavier than their fuel.

littlestymaar 10/27/2024||
> But nuclear reactors aren't usually anywhere near 7 times heavier than their fuel.

On not on earth, but Soviet spatial reactors[1] weren't too far from that:

> The fuel core of the reactor was 0.24 m in diameter, 0.67 m long and weighed, as an assembly, 53 kg,[1][2] and contained 35–50 kg of enriched uranium. The entire reactor, including the radiation shielding, weighed 385 kg.

The problem is yield, out of 100kW of thermal power it was only able to generate up to 3kW of electricity due to lack of efficient cooling in space.

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BES-5

Tuna-Fish 10/26/2024||
I would assume such a high-performance system uses bomb-grade material.
marcosdumay 10/26/2024|||
Hum... You can make things about 20 times better by enriching the uranium more.

But then you'll get into severe storage and control problems. And that thing has to work for 13 years, untouched. There's a maximum somewhere on the middle.

Anyway, I don't think reactors on earth are anywhere close to 140 times the mass of the fuel either. And they don't have to use radiative cooling.

jandrese 10/26/2024||
Nuclear plants on Earth are way more than 140 times the mass of the fuel, but that's mostly concrete for the radiation shielding. If you're only worrying about the core and cooling infrastructure it's not nearly as bad. But of course as everyone has mentioned cooling things in space is hard and you'll want to minimize the number of moving parts because maintenance is impossible and you can't use convection to move heat around which makes it even more difficult.

Remember that on Earth nuclear reactors create electricity by boiling water to turn turbines. Such a system will be far more difficult to design for space.

perihelions 10/26/2024|||
All space nuclear fission reactors use weapons-grade uranium—they'd be impractical otherwise.
littlestymaar 10/27/2024||
Is there anything like a "space nuclear fission reactor" in the first place? My understanding was that all the so called "nuclear reactors" in space where jus powered by radioactive decay of short-lived material, not by fission.
two_handfuls 10/27/2024|||
Oh yes there is. The soviets launched two 6 kilowatt fission nuclear reactors in space.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/US-A

littlestymaar 10/27/2024||
Ah, I wasn't aware of that, thanks!
philipkglass 10/27/2024||
Also one American reactor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNAP-10A
Iwan-Zotow 10/27/2024|||
Search for Topaz space reactor
greenavocado 10/27/2024||
How does this compare to Project Orion
k99x55 10/27/2024|
Would ion engines leave a trace in space signaling alien civilizations our location? We are risking being annihilated by a dark forest strike.

Ok, a bit sci-fi but I had to say it.

kadoban 10/27/2024|
No.