Posted by vaishnav92 1 day ago
One very common struggle I see is when they take internet advice that tells them it’s okay to offload their own struggles on to other people. Unfortunately this blog gives similar advice:
> Focus on managing how your limitations affect others rather than trying to eliminate those limitations. This means: > Being explicitly upfront about your administrative weaknesses early in relationships > Giving trusted contacts alternative ways to reach you when truly urgent > Building a reputation for being aware of your limitations rather than in denial about them
This commonly translates to them adopting ADHD as part of their public persona within the company, which they believe will grant them some degree of protection from consequences.
From what I’ve observed: More often than not this provides a false sense of security. They don’t intend for it to become a free pass, but after “coming out” as ADHD they get the wrong impression that the pressure is now off.
I think they intend to continue working on becoming better at managing their struggles, but it’s really easy to let the opposite happen: Once they think their diagnosis can be used as an excuse, they relax and let their behavior slip even further.
So be careful about getting the wrong idea from this line of thinking. It is good to acknowledge your difficulties and do things like ask other people to follow up if you don’t reply in a timely manner. It is important that you own up when you’ve dropped the ball. However, none of these things should be interpreted as a free pass or a loophole that shields you from consequences. That line of thinking, in my experience, is where people get themselves in trouble.
* Don't you think we would be on time if we could? * It's not a matter of trying harder.
Yes we still have to do our core job functions the same as anyone else, but it's not fair to measure us on a quality the disability affects.
We don't get to ask a partially blind person to just look harder. We give them accommodations that let them do their job without relying on seeing.
It's called accommodation, not shielding from consequences.
I get to be late because I am not able to be always punctual. So my job has to accommodate me to help me do my job without relying on being on time. Just because I can sometimes try hard and be on time doesn't mean it's not a disability.
If I’ve got a major customer complaining about a critical issue and has scheduled a call with various stakeholders (including us) to discuss/resolve it, then we can’t miss that call. Nor can we reschedule without extremely good cause.
also I'm not sure if 'customer wants the person not to do something' is undue hardship. If the employer says my customer wants to work with someone who can see my face when I talk, does that mean that employer doesn't need to accommodate blind people?
Like maybe the accommodation in your example could be to have another person on the team join meetings with you to provide a few minutes of coverage if you're late. If the job role really needs only one person to be exactly punctual all the time (does it really though?) then the eeoc advises to place the person in a different role with similar functions that aren't affected by the disability. read the guidance at eeoc.gov
Most of the time there are reasonable accommodations. It varies by person and the accommodations are specific to the role and person.
My point is that asking someone to just try harder is not the answer, and kind of ablist as it denies the reality of disability. Especially when you frame it as an accusation of laziness or an excuse to slack off.
The ADA covers mental disabilities like ADHD so anyone who actually needs accommodations can receive them if they follow the proper channels and get a legitimate doctor specializing in ADHD to diagnose them. In a career spanning nearly two decades I’ve only ever met one other person who followed the proper ADA accommodation route with HR (as opposed to accommodations for blindness, deafness, or chronic pain which were legion).
Speaking for myself, even with a legit diagnosis it was little more than a cover and self justification for drug abuse (yay NP who prescribed both Vyvanse and Adderall).
That said, I’m extremely happy with where I work today. I’ve been here almost four years and am still going strong.
Are you suggesting that you think your diagnosis is invalid and that should be taken as a data point in our discussion?
I think the answer is for you to stop taking drugs, not that there aren't people woth ADHD who need accommodations to do their job well.
It's also not anyone else's job to diagnose you but your doctor.
It’s not my place to tell anyone whether they actually have a disability, especially one as pernicious as ADHD, but it’s also not anyone’s job to accommodate slackers who doesn’t follow the proper ADA process.
Next time someone uses their ADHD as an excuse to slack off, go talk to HR about what accommodations they requested and whether or not they’re reasonable. Forcing coworkers to pick up the slack for an existing assignment isn’t reasonable - ADHD accommodations are taken care of at the management and planning levels, not during standups. Stuff like flexible work schedules and office environments that minimize distractions are reasonable, but it’s not a get out of jail free card for one’s duties.
But here's the kicker: our "what we can do" will never be enough to be neurotypical.
We'll need help, even when we're using all our coping mechanisms. And if we don't get that help, the outcome is simple: we're going to fail.
I have worked with some severely disabled people. (Probably more than you have, given one of my past jobs.) Most of them worked their ass off to make things work out and for that they have my eternal respect, my cooperation, and the benefit of the doubt.
I have also worked with some people who just throw their hands up and say "but I'm disabled" whenever they are asked to do anything they don't want to do. I do not respect those people.
More specifically, how do you know whether they could or couldn't do the things you were asking them to do, especially if it was an invisible disability?
Doing it before isn't a good indicator.
Other people with the same disability doing it isn't a good indicator.
Not visibly trying isn't a good indicator.
Having a blowout (or not) isn't a good indicator.
Being too tired (or too wired) isn't a good indicator.
Everyone has finite shits to give.
If everything is going fine, other people will often be willing to pick up slack or adjust. If other people are exhausted, overworked, or have no more shits to give - they won’t. Or more precisely, at some point they can’t. Or suffer negative outcomes themselves.
Disabilities are called that because they make things harder, for the people who have them, and for those around them. Same with disorders.
Agreed. I think the point I'm trying to make is simple, to abuse your examples here: Your not giving a shit is neither my fault nor my problem.
And to generalize it, "Your problem with my personal trait is neither my fault nor my problem." Be that trait a disability, skin color, sexuality, gender, or nationality.
Because unfortunately disabilities are just targeted as all those other ones when people want a scapegoat.
I might be getting a bit philosophical, but that's what this feels like it boils down to. Person A is vocal about their dislike of something about Person B.
The issue is that, like you note, it’s easy to ‘other’ people with disabilities and attack them, especially visible disabilities.
So then other people’s perceptions become a real problem for them, yes?
No, it's not. According to doctors, scientists, and the ADA.
That factual inaccuracy aside, would you consider someone with chronic back pain to not have a disability since they can take heavy painkillers every day for the rest of their lives? Or someone who is legally blind but who can put on glasses?
It's pretty unreasonable to compare one relatively minor disability to an extreme physical one that inhibits basic things like brushing your teeth or going to the bathroom.
ADHD doesn't stop you from doing those basic things does it?
For many people with ADHD it doesn't make things impossible, just much more difficult.
I think the point that the person you're trying to make is that too many people with an ADHD diagnosis think that being public with that diagnosis gives them a free pass to not over come the difficulties they face.
Ironic that you picked those two - it absolutely does.
ADHD (and autism) have trouble forming habits - remembering to brush your teeth is something that's a real problem for most folks who have ADHD. Not to mention showering, deodorant, etc.
As for the bathroom, most ADHD people will hyperfocus to the point where they either don't notice they have to use the bathroom, sometimes for an entire work day at a time. Constipation and minor incontinence are not as uncommon as we wish.
> For many people with ADHD it doesn't make things impossible, just much more difficult.
Imagine you have a set of spoons with which to do work. For a NT, doing something like brushing your teeth is a habit, so it doesn't take a spoon. For a ND, the habit fails to form, so they have to exert mental energy to do it. Two spoons.
Keep this up for an entire day, and by the time you have to cook dinner, ND just don't eat because they've been out of spoons since mid-day. The NT cooks dinner and has a few spoons left over to work on their hobby.
Difficult might as well be impossible when you're out of energy. Or spoons.
EDIT: Wow. This blew up. I wouldn't mind chatting more about it.
E.g. someone is able to focus on things that actually make a change while being in a messy room.
It can be exhausting if I really need to (and want to) work on something, but my mind is constantly switching its focus onto something else. It's like being interrupted by a coworker every few minutes, except it's your own mind doing it and you can't make it stop.
While I'm not also a quadrapeligic I feel confident that ADHD in general and quadrapelgia are not comparable.
I acknowledge that there are varying levels of severity of ADHD but very few of the instances of ADHD are comparable to such a profound disability as quadrapelgia.
You don't think that there are objective and measurable differences in disabilities?
Let's take plegia for example -- all other things being equal which is worse being monoplegic, paraplegic, triplegic, or quadriplegic?
Not recognizing objective differences in quality of life associated with varying disabilities does a disservice to those people with extreme disabilities and minimizes and marginalizes their struggles.
Answer this: what’s the end goal of comparing disabilities? I’d argue it’s simply to minimize the “easier” ones. Every struggle is hard for the disabled, bar none. There is no logical reason to compare other than to minimize someone’s struggle, so just avoid doing that. Instead, try and figure out how you can help those around you who struggle, disabled or not.
If someone does not recognize that the hardship of losing a pinky finger is not nearly the same as losing an arm, or as the experience of a quadriplegic, they are not making valid assessments of reality and they are not able to provide any help to those people.
I say this as a person who has ADHD and have worked with profoundly disabled people many times in my life.
Yea, and my point was: imagine telling a quadriplegic they should just try harder to walk, or alternatively that they should try to keep it secret. It’s a stupid idea.
You’re clearly uninformed about this topic, and should research it better.
“Research shows that adults with ADHD are 5 times more likely to attempt suicide. 1 in 4 women with ADHD have made attempts on their life, while men are more likely to end their life. Accidental death is also common.”
http://www.berkshirehealthcare.nhs.uk/media/109514702/suicid...
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/child-development-ce...
It’s about being a decent human being who can think critically.
Absolutely, categorically wrong. There's plenty of literature on the subject, should you wish to correct your assumptions.
For those with serious symptoms, medication can help make it possible to use coping strategies. It doesn't make it easier, just possible.
To put it another way we'll never be neurotypical (normal), and if that's your expectation for someone with ADHD, that's not our problem.
Or to put it another way, a broken toe and a broken femur are both categorized as broken bones, but one is much more serious and has complications the other does not.
Without claiming any disability, I say what I’m good at and offer to do it. I am respected for what I contribute and forgiven for what I don’t.
I married someone who does planning, she married someone who makes money on his ideas. She runs my business, I talk to clients and teach my classes and (slowly) write books.
This obviously isn't core to the point OP is making, but I find it hard to believe that someone of "average" intelligence can't learn about advanced machine learning.
Recently, I've been in the position where I'm the only one taking ownership of new work and initiatives, sometimes to my own detriment. For example, I took on a feature that required an entire validation system be put in place. Though I succeeded in successfully completing the system, the feature was not fully complete. The validation system was not visible. Though if leverage, it would lighten everyones load, it largely went unnoticed and what was observed was that I pushed out a buggy feature. Though I resolved the bugs within a sprint, my reputation was damaged to the point where I took on a new feature and promised it would be done in a sprint. I succeeded but wasn't able to complete it due to the api team only finishing 2-3 of 8 apis. This sort of test I made for myself also had low visibility so even though it was an impressive feat by my team's efforts, it also largely went unnoticed.
Though the author is wrong to equate work-throughput with IQ, he's right to find a way to inform trusted management with this work ethic and he's right to make sure when high value tasks are taken on, that it be made clear to product so credit can be given.
I have team members that are doing the bare minimum but cross lots of t's and dot many i's and that gets them equal recognition as me who often misses deadlines but does lots of heavy lifting.
With machine learning, the concept or layman level explanation to support the application of the tech is definitely doable for the average person. But the average person won’t be able to get the math.
Folks I know with ADHD generally adapt well, with systems or coaching that they get from professionals or folks supporting them. Everyone is different, of course, and folks struggle with different things.
He’s right with the other stuff too imo. People who deliver get grace from non-core failures.
So while you could teach anyone, with enough effort, they would not actually enjoy the experience.
There's a difference between grokking an ELI5 explanation and being able to build, modify, or review an existing ML model
Maybe - but very possibly not.
I would say this gets possible at 120 and only easy at 140 at a guess.
Edit: i am serious
If by "ML concepts" you mean "how to implement ML" - do you really think that people who got to a job that required learning this, represent the population IQ distribution?
Most college students I took it with, probably average a standard deviation higher, did pretty middling in the class.
Accepting the framing that ADHD does exist, it feels like brain damage. Every year growing up, in any group of kids I was among the most immature, the most off-task, the most distracted, and the most forgetful. I am plenty smart, move very quickly, and have accomplished plenty, but my entire life has been defined by being more bored, forgetful, and immature than nearly every single person I've been close to. My wife (performs very well on relevant metrics) says it's extremely noticeable and unusual from the outside. Over time I've learned to heavily lean on coping mechanisms (my phone rings about 35 times per day with timers I snooze tactically, I leave my keys in my bag any time I go places so I can't leave without the bag, etc.) No amount of character development schemes, punishments, shaming, positive skill practicing etc. has changed my natural proclivities in the slightest, although many days of good sleep and diet can sometimes produce a bit of a sustained flow state. Sometimes I wonder if I just lack some kind of ion in my blood.
My coworkers sometimes tell me they feel like they have ADHD. Then I watch them listen to someone talk about a subject they find boring for 5 minutes without drifting off or fidgeting, and then remember off the top of their heads to respond to outstanding emails. Come on guys, if we're going to make up conditions we should at least reserve the label for people that it describes accurately.
Congratulations on getting your Doctorate of Psychiatry. Glad you've single handedly debunked a century of study with your belief.
On a more serious note, I'm glad your symptoms are addressable with coping mechanisms. A lot of folks can't. And your "40%" is actually closer to 5%, based on scientists who research and give talks on this mental disorder.
Imagine there were a pill that could boost your IQ score by 25% but in order to receive a prescription you need to have an IQ in the lowest quartile. Such a pill could also help already smart people simply become smarter.
Thats the main contention: there are two groups: (a) people who actually experience debilitating symptoms that significantly impact their life requiring medication, and (b) people who are simply looking for an edge by using medication, perhaps even convinced to do so by ads on TikTok or Instagram under the guise if ADHD.
Edit: The IQ score medication analogy is only meant to be illustrative. I don’t mean to imply that IQ and ADHD are somehow connected.
Respectfully, disorder already has a meaning. And it's a meaning enshrined in medicine and law (ADA). "Redefining" disorder does nothing but hurt people who have a disorder.
And ADHD has no correlation with IQ (which I think you know, but it' not just a focus sliding scale either). It's a disorder that encompasses the symptoms of time blindness, a lack of ability to control focus, emotional disregulation, rejection sensitivity dysphoria, reduced working memory, an inability to form habits, and executive dysfunction.
It's also associated with a physical change in the brain.
“Redefining” could have instead said “Reinterpreting”.
The reality is the diagnosis for these disorders are completely subjective. The same logic could be applied to depression and SSRIs. It’s not like a blood test that tells me I have high cholesterol. It takes dozens of hours with a qualified medical professional to seriously diagnose someone with high confidence.
Also agree there are studies correlating it with physical changes in the brain. But those studies aren’t fully fleshed out and not useful for diagnosis. There isn’t a brain scan that can detect ADHD.
I think it's important to note that even if there were, it wouldn't change the inherently arbitrary nature of ADHD diagnoses (as opposed to the more objective presence of a bacterial infection or an ACL tear). Such a brain scan would legitimize the careers of thousands of people and be deeply celebrated by insurers and physicians alike, as it would dramatically simplify the diagnostic procedure, but the scan would still just be "identifying brains that fall into several of these metrics 1-N we wrote down in the DSM". It would be possible to change the DSM such that the brain scan would have to be adjusted as well, which is very difficult to do with other conditions that are more obviously "real".
My two cents, although I admit I've put more like six cents into this thread in total, is that 95% of the suffering that those "with ADHD" experience come from poorly-designed schools and businesses, which keep them captured, tracked, and timed for deeply questionable societal benefits. I'm not about to say you can operate a space station or manufacture semiconductors or supply the US cold stowage network without a good amount of capturing, tracking, and timing, but I am going to say that much of the psychological torment ADHD-havers endure is because they're failing to live up to stupid, useless goals set by people with misguided ideas about why the goals exist.
(I don’t normally reply just to say that, but it felt relevant given the thread)
Did you know that 90% of cases of ALS aren't "based on any genetic marker"? Does that mean ALS is "arbitrarily defined"? What does that even mean? Are you saying it isn't real?
Neither is depression, PTSD, autism, chronic pain, schizophrenia, narcissism, MPD, and so forth. But they all exist. And they can all be debilitating to the point of becoming a disorder. They all have treatments according to their classification.
Being invisible doesn't make it not be a disorder.
That's not how ADHD is defined, though.
> Imagine there were a pill that could boost your IQ score by 25% but in order to receive a prescription you need to have an IQ in the lowest quartile. Such a pill could also help already smart people simply become smarter.
Yeah, that's a nice hypothetical but that's not how ADHD meds work; boosting dopamine out of the normal range does not continue to have beneficial impacts to executive function, instead it leads to anxiety, insomnia, aggression, and hallucinations. That's one of the reasons dosing for ADHD meds tends to start on the low end and be carefully titrated up to what works for the individual.
How is it defined?
> that's not how ADHD meds work
Are you saying no one without ADHD takes prescribed medication?
When I was in college people with prescriptions would sell their pills for $5-10 each (10+ years ago in Boston). That’s $300 for a month supply purchased by fellow students who weren’t diagnosed, but used it to cram for exams and studying and concentrating during exams.
If what you say is true, then the free market (black market) for adderall wouldn’t be so lucrative.
Perhaps you haven’t been exposed to the plethora of Instagram ads convincing kids they have ADD based on a 5 question survey and prescribed without any other criteria besides “is trouble concentrating impacting your work or personal life?” - these days it’s literally that simple, quick telegealth appointment, say concentrating impacts your work life, and there you have it, you officially have ADD.
This thread is going on a ton of tangents. My original point was simply that diagnosis is subjective and relative to the people around you. Second point is the meds will help anyone who takes it with improving concentration and making it possible to increase productivity substantially not just for short bursts but for extended periods of time (months/years). I think both points still stand
(And none of what I’m saying invalidates the seriousness of the disorder for people who “really have it”. I fully believe there are people who find the condition truly debilitating. But there are also loads of people who are diagnosed through instagram or TikTok ads because “concentrating is hard” and “motivation is difficult” and other obvious statements that resonate with a majority of college kids, for example)
No, I'm saying that the cognitive effect on function of someone without ADHD taking ADHD medicine isn't the same directionally as that of someone with ADHD taking it, the way the upthread proposed analogy of "a drug that increases IQ score by 25%" but which is only prescribed to those with IQ in the lowest quintile framed the situation. Excess dopamine impairs function in a different way that dopamine deficit, it doesn't increase it beyond what is seen with normal dopamine.
> If what you say is true, then the free market (black market) for adderall wouldn’t be so lucrative.
It is true, but the black market for adderall isn't mostly taking it for the same effect as people with ADHD are (some are, because there are still biases and access issues which prevent or delay diagnoses for people with ADHD, as well as deliberate, government-created supply shortages in the legal market.) But largely are taking it for wakefulness (an effect of dopamine surplus), and because dopamine surplus is part of the brain's reward system such that things which have been experienced which produce it are actively sought out. Again, this is why therapeutic dosages for ADHD are titrated to avoid going overboard.
I fully agree with your comment, and good take!
Everywhere, all the time, at all age brackets. It's absolutely terrible, having suffered a terrible amphetamine addiction in my past.
Sufferers of real ADHD need to understand that when people critique the guidelines, they're critiquing the fact that this is possible, and its leading to serious problems getting on with life.
You're also taking that initial statement way too serious, the rest of the comment kinda contextualized it and essentially admitted that it does exist, but that it's more of a range then a binary. And that's in line with the medical science.
I've actually never heard anyone describe it as a binary, but maybe that's just my bubble.
Control over concentration is only one symptom of ADHD, and there are discernible differences that make ADHD brains look different in CT and MRI scans. So it's a bit closer to binary than "everyone in the world is somewhere on the ADHD spectrum".
Plus, the final word in the ADHD acronym is "Disorder" - so if it's not impairing your ability to live and participate in society, by definition you don't have ADHD.
Whatever negative label you've had applied to you as a result of ADHD, I likely have had the same applied to me. My choice to not use any stimulants is both indeed a privilege of my "symptoms" not reaching a point where I can't function in day-to-day life, but also an ideological choice, because I have hurt my own career, screwed up projects, and progressed much more slowly than I would have if I were on Adderall or Ritalin or whatever else they're prescribing now.
The reason that I persist with the claim that "ADHD doesn't exist" is exactly what you said here:
> If it's not impairing your ability to live and participate in society, by definition you don't have ADHD.
The problem is not my brain, the problem is the arbitrary demands of society. This is not an emotional attempt to preserve my self-esteem--I like myself just fine and always have--but a pragmatic observation that diagnosing "disorders" with acronyms and developing "treatments" legitimizes the framing that the society that I'm chafing with as a result of having some cognitive deficits relative to the rest of the population is somehow more "real" or "official" or "objective" than I am.
It's like if every day to get to work, you had to walk up huge stairs, and anyone under 5'6" had a tough time getting up the stairs, and then doctors came up with HDS (Height Deficiency Syndrome) and prescribed growth hormones and stilts. You get a bunch of people walking around on stilts telling each other they have HDS. Over time, you barely even need to be examined to get a stilt prescription, they just give you the HDS diagnosis soon as you look like you're not going to pass 5'6" by 18. Now you've got a society that is comfortable with the knowledge that short people have HDS and tall people don't, without thinking about the fact that whoever built the stairs could simply have made smaller stairs that other people could walk up more easily.
I would really prefer that people start wondering en masse if, in the age of incredible technological abundance we currently enjoy, it's really necessary that every industry, even ones that don't require highly time-sensitive detail-oriented work, function with the rigor and precision of a munitions factory.
Well, society isn't going to change to make 5% of the population with an invisible disorder better.
And I think even given that, the "it's society that's the problem" is still wrong. Because (from another thread), ADHD is more than just a concentration problem. It's a disorder that encompasses the symptoms of time blindness, a lack of ability to control focus, emotional disregulation, rejection sensitivity dysphoria, reduced working memory, an inability to form habits, and executive dysfunction. No number of "hunter gatherer" society norms would explain all of these.
I disagree strongly with the grandparent comment, but this is about as useful as commenting "Congratulations on getting your Doctorate of Sacred Theology. Glad you've single handedly debunked a millenium of study with your belief" would be when I comment that I'm an atheist.
Have a good one!
I reminded you that the guideline exists because it's good advice in this case, and had you edited your comment to get rid of the snark (as the guidelines suggest), you could have had a chance of persuading instead of alienating its audience. Too bad.
Tell a blind person to simple try harder in seeing, and that you don’t believe being blind is “a thing”.
The "paradoxical" effects of ADHD stimulant-type medications is the most direct indicator that this is indeed the case: taking a CNS stimulant normally causes more arousal, agitation, and activity in NT individuals.
But in ADHD individuals, CNS stimulants up-regulate frontal lobe activity, which manifests as a relaxant, since the frontal lobe is doing a better job of regulating and stabilizing the rest of the brain. Executive function also improves considerably.
So the most objectively measurable symptom of ADHD is whether this paradoxical behavioral alteration occurs from taking a CNS stimulant.
You can argue all you like about whether ADHD is within this or that percentile threshold -- but you can't argue with a proven, consistent, clinical result that points strongly to under-functioning of the frontal lobe in individuals with ADHD.
I've experienced this myself. My quality of life is profoundly different after taking Ritalin. I feel more relaxed; the buzzing and noise in my head is significantly reduced. I stop feeling the profound urge to get distracted like Doug the dog from the movie Up: ... "squirrel!"
My point is that, unlike people who have a fracture in their femur vs. people who don't, the "significant reduction" of dopamine processing metric, when codified, is a pretty consistent, smooth line across the population. There are a group of people who are seriously dopamine-processing-reduced, and then a huge grey area with people who kind of are and then kind of aren't, and then there's group of people whose dopamine-processing ability defines the "baseline" against which ADHD is constructed. ADHD is a four letter label that was only invented to help doctors help people deal with difficulties they have with executive functioning, given that modern society demands a baseline of executive function out of citizens if you want to receive food, shelter, salary, and promotions.
In recent years, the "ADHD boundary" has been expanding to capture more people in the grey area as doctors, psychiatrists, and insurers play looser with the definition of ADHD than they did when it was first invented. But at its core, the condition is literally "compared to this other group of people, you have a harder time at certain important tasks than they do". Is that a "real condition" in the same way that COVID-19 is a real condition? I say not; it's a methodological shorthand.
I am very aware that the brains of certain people work differently than others, and that in "ADHD brains" (a group which includes mine) it is possible to use a brain scan to observe differences relative to that "normal group of people". But if you took scans of the "least ADHD" group, you could find that their brains differ as well, and they have certain cognitive advantages compared to the new baseline of middle-ground brains. We could call that "Attention Surplus Normal-activity Advantage". But it would be stupid to label them with ASNA. Everyone would be aware that the four-letter acronym is just an arbitrary shorthand to describe a group of people that can be diagnostically clustered together relative to everyone else. The "advantage" would be exactly as real as the "disorder".
Its not, though, because while the dopamine/norepinephrine chain seems to be the main issue in ADHD, serotonin also seems to be implicated, as low serotonin levels are associated with it and serotonin-targeting interventions also seem to help.
But, yeah, your more general point is correct; ADHD is undeniably a real condition.
Accommodations can include things as simple as leeway for coming in late, or with deadlines. They can even go up to removing specific requirements from your role.
It's worth asking what's available at least.
I start to believe that we are overly self-critical, and that the actual workers are having better ways of hiding their incompetence :D
Similarly, AFAIU, time and energy spent in self-reflection also tends to positively correlate with neuroticism--e.g. feelings of guilt and inadequacy. If you're not high on self-reflection (there's a negative correlation with extroversion), you're less likely to experience negative self-esteem, at least in a conscious way.
I know ADHD correlates more strongly with some personality types than others, but by and large I believe people with ADHD (like everybody else) are spread across the spectrum along all these various axes, and it's only at some ends of certain axes that they're likely to seek assistance for themselves.
IMO this relates heavily to Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria and ND people's propensity to maximise negative self-perception and minimise positive.
At my new job I interviewed into a promotion and am a team lead. My focus is always on whatever is the most challenging technical tasks. Once we finish building a product, someone else takes over maintenance and we get a new project. It’s fantastic because I’m always at the edge of what I know and writing brand new stuff, which I exactly what I love. I find this deeply satisfying and it helps rebuff that feeling of being a fraud. I definitely prefer to be a medium sized fish in a small pond (where I’m a pretty smart guy at a place that doesn’t necessarily need world class engineers) vs being a medium sized fish in a large pond.
The more boring my work is the worse I do at my job, and I’m lucky that in my position at this point I basically only focus on the novelties and intricacies of the most challenging tech problems the company has to offer.
This is imposter syndrome[0]. Particularly feeling like a fraud, disassociation from compliments, and expecting people to find out you're a fraud. I think it's fairly common for some jobs/roles (software developers at Google, for example). I also think it's fairly common for people with ADHD.
You can still do more and do better (e.g. by better coping with your ADHD symptoms), that's normal and healthy to an extent. It's just that your self-perception is probably a bit too negatively biased. It's normal to have a negatively biased self-perception, but my guess is that your self-perception got warped a bit too much from decades of "sheer terror".
I can't really speak directly from experience with imposter syndrome, but what currently helps me deal with negative self-perception is acknowledgement and acceptance:
* cognitive reflection: Understand and acknowledge that many of my self-thoughts are negatively biased[1].
* meditative reflection[2]: Practice unconditional acceptance. Accept everything, accept my own performance, accept my negative thoughts of my own performance, accept my feelings of ineptitude.
... Unless "I'm only accomplishing a small fraction of what I could... I expect people to realize that any moment now" actually means that you expect people to find out that you're secretly really awesome and deep-down you're actually way better than all of them. That's probably not imposter syndrome.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion
[2] I don't really meditate per se regularly, I'm trying to illustrate that there are different ways to mentally reflect. Rational, logical, emotional, spiritual, whatever.
Even though it's not true. Sometimes no amount of mental effort can break past the barriers we face on a daily, hourly, even minute by minute basis.
Unrelated, but "spot the Australian"
~ This Is Serious Mum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/www.tism.wanker.com)
This sounds like a Good Thing, and I'm sure for some people it's a good idea, but in my experience, frontloading this sort of stuff tends to backfire. The problem is that most[0] people don't know how to deal with special needs[1]
If you focus on the facts and "your administrative weaknesses" a lot of people just hear excuses and think you're incompetent.
If you try to explain it as a medical thing first, you might get the "you don't look autistic" response -- they think you are putting yourself down -- but the response I've had even more often is "what does that mean?". Now you have to work to convince them that you are a liability.
A strange game. The only way to win is to not[2] play.
[0] "most": a population large enough that you can't safely ignore their existence. Source? what I reckon.
[1] I don't really like to use the phrase, but I mean the literal meaning of the words and also that's often how they see it.
[2] not the only way to order words
That doesn’t make me a dick, I just have a limited number of hours on the clock and energy to spare.
It kind of feels like I’m just a passenger and my subconscious is doing the driving in terms of my decisions if what to focus on.
Some are worthy of specific comment:
> These suggestions assume that the primary challenge is knowing what to do rather than the neurological capacity to consistently execute such systems.
YES YES YES YES YES. I am utterly sick of being told to make a to-do list (thanks, therapist, last Monday). I have a list. I have a half-dozen discarded lists. Lists are not the problem. Someday I will find the solution?
> Be exceptionally helpful when you can, so people are more forgiving when you drop administrative balls
It's kind of hilarious to see this written down, because usually when people seek me out for help (or I go to them to help)... it's something novel or at least a change of pace for me... so it automatically activates the novelty circuits in my brain and I get really into helping out anyway. Brains are weird.
> Being explicitly upfront about your administrative weaknesses early in relationships
This one caught some flak upthread but for me it is as simple as saying "hey, I'm not always great about responding to pings, if it's important just ping me twice and that usually works" (which, for me, it does). Saying that kind of little thing explicitly can go a long way.
> it's like trying to teach advanced machine learning to someone with an IQ of 100.
Everyone already agrees this is ridiculous, but I have to say it too: this is ridiculous.
I haven't, but I can say that it's not journals. Though they do make pretty stacks when you collect them.
It was been painful to watch, to be honest, because the impact on our team had been so acute, and it simply never got better after so much effort on the part of management, other engineers, etc.
Where I diverge with base assumptions however is that I suspect these particular people had been misdiagnosed with ADHD, were given medication, and it was the medication that led them to drop the ball. Why? Basic physiological needs were never being met, again and again. They were constantly reporting insomnia, missing meals, fatigue and all of the things you associate with stimulants being either misused or abused. Having _been there_, it was easy to spot. And I think this sort of thing is tragically common in our field, and is rarely confronted because of identity issues associated with medical labels.
Sure, people get misdiagnosed or purposely lie to get meds, but tons of people legitimately have the condition. Insomnia, poor basic self care, and fatigue (hello insomnia among others) are 100% symptoms of the condition. Taking medication doesn’t “fix” ADHD, it helps some people cope better in some ways.