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Posted by nabla9 10/27/2024

Character amnesia in China(globalchinapulse.net)
483 points | 528 commentspage 3
dj_gitmo 10/28/2024|
I wanted to write in cursive a few years ago and realized I had completely forgotten. It didn’t take long to remember with the help of a cursive alphabet, but I was still completely unable to get started without it.
cbhl 10/28/2024|
Apparently Gen Z didn't learn to write in cursive at all, since it had been removed from the curriculum. Some US states have since started adding it back.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32884213 (2022)

QuadmasterXLII 10/27/2024||
We have this too! It’s not just treble clefs and ampersands- while everyone can read both forms of g, what fraction of people can draw both forms of g? Of course it doesn’t have the cultural baggage in the US.
ilamont 10/28/2024||
OTOH, the pinyin-based typing systems on computers and phones has been a godsend to students of Chinese.

I started to learn Chinese in the 80s at my high school and then in the 90s in Taiwan and was laughably bad at writing. Literally, people would laugh at my characters not only because they looked terrible, but also because I was using the wrong stroke order.

Now, it is possible for me to get away with not knowing how to write characters or the stroke order. Using pinyin and recognizing the characters (or certain radicals) is enough to take me very far in social media, texting, etc.

For instance, for one of the phrases in the article ti2bi3wang4zi4 knowing the last character (zi, 字) and kind of remembering wang is enough to recognize the entire colloquialism when I type in the pinyin tibiwangzi: 提筆忘字

In Taiwan they have a TV game show featuring college students, basically like a crossword featuring 4-character colloquialisms and other phrases that have obscure characters. It's quite fun for the audience to watch, almost everyone is writing characters in the air in front of them as they try to remember the hard characters.

tho2342343434 10/28/2024||
In Japan, they call them "wapuro-baka" (idiot who's forgotten how to write stuff because he's only using WADO-PUROCESSA).
DeathArrow 10/28/2024||
Chinese writing system is a language in itself. You can translate Mandarin, Cantonese and even English to that language. To learn that language is harder because it has to support more than one spoken language.

Using an alphabet would make things far more easier, but then how would people from different parts of China understand each other?

GranularRecipe 10/28/2024||
It's not a language. It's a writing system used to write Classical Chinese for 3000 years and Mandarin for 150 years. When I was in Hong Kong, I was surprised that the written language is Mandarin (in traditional form).
DeathArrow 10/29/2024||
It's a language in the same sense math notation is a language. It's understood by both a Chinese and an American mathematician.
GranularRecipe 10/29/2024||
Math notation consists of symbols and syntax (order of symbols). How to arrange the Chinese characters (syntax) is very different between different languages.
umanwizard 10/28/2024||
I suppose advocates of alphabetic writing imagine everyone in China (outside Hong Kong and Macau) will be speaking standard Mandarin in a few generations anyway due to standardized public education.
GranularRecipe 10/28/2024||
I would argue that alphabetisation would increase the use of regional languages because it would be possible to write down your speech, instead of relying on Mandarin or phonetical transcription with Chinese characters.
cynicalpeace 10/28/2024||
This is actually one of the main reasons I don't think China will become a global hegemon. English, with all its flaws, is far easier to speak, read, and write.

Languages are the walls between cultures.

jampekka 10/28/2024||
I don't think English is particularly easy to speak, read nor write. The pronounciation is highly irregular and the writing system is very non-phonetic. E.g. "spelling bees" don't make any sense in most languages.

Chinese also seems to be moving to the very phonetic and regular Pinyin that (for Mandarin) doesn't suffer from character amnesia.

I do agree that languages are walls between peoples and should be taken down with a global language. Maybe in few decades the kids speak some kind of Chinglish.

cynicalpeace 10/28/2024||
"Easier" I didn't say easy. It's a relative comparison. Spanish and ASL are easy languages, but they won't help Peru or the Deaf community become hegemons for their own reasons.

We already have the global language. It's called English lol

jampekka 10/28/2024||
> We already have the global language. It's called English lol

Around 82% of people don't speak English. Mandarin at around 86% isn't that far off.

Lingua francas come and go, and it's a lot more about weapons than about linguistics.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/266808/the-most-spoken-l...

cynicalpeace 10/28/2024||
Most of those English speakers learned it as a 2nd language.

Most of those Chinese speakers learned it as a native speaker.

No language worldwide is even close to English in terms of learning demand. Chinese doesn't even rank in the top 3.

famouswaffles 10/28/2024|||
Language difficulty is not absolute. Most Japanese natives have a much easier time learning Korean than they do English.

What makes a 2nd Language easier or not to speak is how closely related it is to your native language.

English is not any easier to speak than Chinese if your native language is far removed from both.

It is definitely harder to write though. Writing systems can be absolute in difficulty.

cynicalpeace 10/28/2024||
> Language difficulty is not absolute

> Writing systems can be absolute in difficulty

These things contradict each other.

famouswaffles 10/28/2024||
Writing is a relatively recent add-on in human history so I was making a point distinguishing the difficulty of the two. There isn't really anything contradictory there. I did this because some people have the idea that the language itself is easier rather than just the writing system.

You are thinking of writing as part of Language difficulty which is fair(I mean it is in a practical sense and I don't disagree) but it doesn't make as much of a dent as you might think compared to difficulty of everything else.

According to the FSI who tracks the number of class hours it takes their diplomats to reach sufficient mastery, Korean and Arabic are still Category IV Languages for native English speakers (along with Japanese, Chinese) despite having a much easier writing system than those two.

ak_111 10/28/2024||
Could argue this works in exactly the opposite way.

This "wall" makes the west an open book to china, while for the west it is hard to crack the Chinese. For one thing, think of the implications on recruiting people to spy or interpret intercepted messages from china or on espionage in general.

Also the impact of this "problem" on running a well-functioning highly-productive and scientific powerhouse society is highly exaggerated and easily refuted by empirical facts.

Just think of what Japan and China managed to accomplish in engineering and scientific accomplishment in the last 50 years and they both use character-based languages.

cynicalpeace 10/28/2024||
This is true. I learned Chinese and then hitchhiked China in 2018 for exactly this reason. Everyone was yapping about how important China had become, but China was a black box to me.

After months of hitchhiking I came back home unconcerned.

I think the fact that it's a black box makes us overhype China.

prng2021 10/28/2024||
China should make another attempt at simplifying their written language. Yes it’s a monumental task, but Korea managed to mostly transition off of Chinese characters.
numpad0 10/27/2024||
I think this is not as complicated as it sounds; it's same as how NN classifiers aren't always built to do label to image, only image to label. Being able to do former through a parallel pipeline helps(that's like GAN), but that ability isn't required in training or in inference.

Your OCR engine in the brain might generate "𰻞" for 'zh_hant_適' if reversed, doesn't mean it can't recognize the latter.

markus_zhang 10/27/2024||
It's simply people stop writing stuffs on paper. Nothing too surprising. I myself cannot spell some English words because I rely too much on auto-correction.
MisterTea 10/28/2024|
I wonder is the increase in external input from a growing world that is full of distraction competes with storage for these kinds of things. Such an intricate writing system might have been easier to contain in the mind before it was bombarded with limitless electronic entertainment and communication. How many people actually sit down and put a pencil to paper these days?
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