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Posted by lhoff 10/27/2024

Open Source on its own is no alternative to Big Tech(berthub.eu)
166 points | 192 commentspage 2
larodi 10/27/2024|
Been ranting about this for years, did a keynote about it, actually did two notes at several venues, including an open culture festival, and all I got was a silent dis.

every now and then open source is suggested as superior, because being free. Zero comment on code quality, who wrote it, why it came to be in the first place.

Even the argument that a host running open source makes delivery more trustworthy is super biased - major cognitive dissonance is that services based on open tech are very often not open, neither auditable.

There’s a lot of open source being controlled by same large corporations and the part that is not, does not constitute a service on its own.

Then we must admit it takes a lot of care taking care of services nobody else cares about (by means of support).

While open source is important for academia, I think open results are more important for government. Like I don’t care what somebody used to cater to this geospatial data, or that image. I care about the data that went in and went out. Open data is much more important in the era of open weights and closed sources training sets.

The general public is often misled to equate open source to free beer. Well that is also not entirely correct given plethora of not so free licenses. Asp not correct as costs are greater when you put the personnel running that service in the equation. I can see how this argument does not fly well with socialist ideologies, but that’s problem of ideology, not of costs or technology.

Even if we consider only those open projects which are also free - these come with less guaranties than a pair of second hand shoes bought from random store.

Don’t get me wrong - open source is great and we use it daily, but comparing means of distribution with quality of service is really like comparing ябълки и круши (apples and pears in Bulgarian). So it’s indeed time to stop blindly waving the open source flag, but actually try to understand the benefits and challenges it comes with.

2-3-7-43-1807 10/27/2024||
> Experimenting is useful, but know that Open Source is the underdog, and there are many people waiting for an opportunity to enthusiastically declare that it has failed.

almost the entire world and industry is literally running on open source.

Guthur 10/27/2024||
Countries have run nationalise infrastructure before, and successfully. The problem is if they did not view it as nationalised infrastructure and instead viewed it as some sort of mana that would fall from open source heaven.

Open source software is the building blocks used by large rent (service fee) seeking corporations. They will extract large profits from any of these contracts and that is a demonstrable fact, they are also nearly all from the USA and so those profits will flow in one particular direction. It is also a historical fact that governments have run successful large scale infrastructure. Make your choice.

JimDabell 10/27/2024||
The point of going to big businesses for software services and support is that most customers don’t have needs that are large enough to justify the full-time staff needed for top-notch support. So companies that provide services amortise this over many customers and can employ n dozen full-time staff for a particular subsystem when the average customer might only need them a few times a year. So the tradeoff makes sense – even with a big profit margin, the customers still save money compared with DIY.

This logic doesn’t really hold when it comes to large governments. Their needs are large enough that they can justify employing specialists. At that point, the profit margin the service business is capturing is just inefficiency. Internal services should be more common in large governments.

Qwertious 10/27/2024|||
Theoretically the advantage of outsourcing to a business instead of running it inhouse is that you can put it out to tender, picking the most competent of the entire industry, whereas your inhouse team is what it is.

In practice, Microsoft isn't going anywhere. You're just paying for an external inhouse.

jcgrillo 10/27/2024||
If you're a government you absolutely have the ability to compete with big tech, it's "just" a matter of political will. If you decide that it's important enough you can hire competitively from the same talent pool. Strategically it makes little sense to depend on another nation's companies to run your critical infrastructure. You have to own your dependencies.
iforgotpassword 10/27/2024|||
It depends? Sometimes it is the feature set, but for example with future VMware pricing we'd be cheaper off hiring two full-time staff and running proxmox, which is currently being evaluated.
JimDabell 10/27/2024||
This depends on the level of support you need. Two members of staff might be fine for non-critical systems but it’s not enough to support anything that needs to be up 24/7. There’s not enough coverage and less than zero slack. If my alternative is to hire two people, I would rather spend the money with a company that is large enough to employ more people, in different timezones. But if most support can be handled by a larger body of existing staff and you only need specialists occasionally, then it might make sense.
6510 10/27/2024||
But it does run it in a particular way that isn't necessarily as profitable which in this example is a good thing.

imho the question should be if the country continues to function if the project goes bankrupt. If it is so essential that it needs to be saved by the government (even in theory) then it lives outside the domain of capitalism.

BoredPositron 10/27/2024||
The problem is that docker compose starts 20 containers and the fans go full bore just because you wanted to try a new wiki or notes app. The complexity of relatively simple software is getting insane.
Pooge 10/27/2024||
I am one of the 10 users[1] in the world that uses Docker Swarm (container orchestrator like Kubernetes or Nomad), and I disagree with that statement. I have over 25 containers running (including Jellyfin, Nextcloud, Gitea, TeamSpeak, ...) and it barely uses 10GB of RAM (Jellyfin is eating up more than half of this).

Most of my Compose files contain 2 services (1 for app + 1 for database), but some contain 3 and some contain 1. It's incredibly easy to install new software and incredibly easy to shut it down temporarily if you don't need to use it all day.

I'd even argue that some companies would benefit more from using Swarm than Kubernetes. There is a lot of things to take into account when using Kubernetes (let alone setting it up for GitOps), but Docker Swarm can be managed by 1 person.

[1]: A joke, obviously, but it really isn't popular at all

globular-toast 10/27/2024|||
I think k8s can be managed by one person too, if you are only using it like docker swarm. Especially if you use something like k3s with SQL database.

I found setting up gitops via flux quite easy, apart from order of operations, like installing controllers and custom resource definitions before resources that need those CRDs etc.

What were you thinking of things to take into account for k8s over swarm?

The main difference for me is k8s needs a hell of a lot more boilerplate yaml for doing basically anything.

Pooge 10/27/2024||
> Especially if you use something like k3s with SQL database

I'll admit I've never used K8s outside of work very much, so I can't really argue on that!

> What were you thinking of things to take into account for k8s over swarm? The main difference for me is k8s needs a hell of a lot more boilerplate yaml for doing basically anything.

I think that's a big one, yes. Stateful services (i.e. volumes) are also much easier to setup and understand with Docker Swarm - which is the same as Compose. The routing mesh[1] is also lovely. I didn't use the Kubernetes routing mesh at work because the infrastructure department didn't allow us to, why is one a reason I was arguing against it; we used a very powerful and complex system without profiting from one of its most powerful feature.

[1]: https://docs.docker.com/engine/swarm/ingress/

BoredPositron 10/27/2024|||
We are talking about normal users.
Pooge 10/27/2024||
Starting one wiki/note-taking software is not going to make your fans go crazy more than running your favorite JetBrains IDE. I had a non-Arm MacBook Pro and sometimes the fans would go crazy for no reasons, so all my Arm-based colleagues who had an M1 were laughing.
globular-toast 10/27/2024||
I do agree we are exposing way too many low level details to users these days. Probably because we expect an expert to be setting up these network services. The dream would be to have some low power appliance people can just plug in to provide a data persistence service for applications. Then applications just use that (discovered via zeroconf/avahi) for their "sharing" needs. Everything else should be bundled into the app and invisible to users just like it used to be.
sunshine-o 10/27/2024||
I was sincerely wondering what the EU institutions use as a productivity suite but it seems they are on Microsoft 365 ! [0]

I would be very curious to know if the data are stored on their own data center or Microsoft's.

- [0] https://www.edps.europa.eu/press-publications/press-news/pre...

teddyh 10/27/2024||
“Open Source” is an alternative to Big Tech in the same way that “open standards” is a preferable alternative to proprietary technology. In fact, it is largely the same issue.
kkfx 10/27/2024||
Let's simplify: FLOSS domain is the internet domain, where anyone own a desktop, a homeserver, a company machine room etc. The big tech model is the old mainframe model, or the modern web where only few own anything.

Try to mimicking them is a waste of time and can't work, pushing the society toward ownership and freedom might work, because in a way or another we will end up there being technically the sole solution.

eesmith 10/27/2024|
FLOSS is the personal computer model, where you own the computer and have final say on what data is processed on your machine. If you can't try to make your software or computer lie in on your behalf, it is not FOSS.

The big tech model where trust is in the company, not the person. Business love the big tech model because it's easier to let a few credit card companies deal with the trust issue than establish a trust relationship with everyone directly (or deal with cash), because surveillance capitalism is more profitable, and because it's more profitable to rent than to sell.

The big tech model can profit first on that cost difference, and later on switching costs which would otherwise inhibit abuse.

It has essentially nothing to do with the internet, as mainframes were networked long before personal computers. Even back in the 1980s, POS terminals used dial-up to verify credit card transactions.

kkfx 10/27/2024||
I mean the "mainframe model" of a single large system and many dumb terminals, now dumb terminals are named enpoints and the mainframe is someone else computer across the world.

The trust problem is easy to solve, with an open society: as long as payments got processed with open APIs and the government takes care of the frauds there is no trust problem. I do not need to trust a third party with eCash, I only need to trust my State protections.

The idea is already tempted, see not only the historic eCash, witch are the modern GNU Taler chosen (it seems) by the EU for the digital Euro https://www.ngi.eu/ngi-projects/ngi-taler/ and https://social.network.europa.eu/@EC_NGI/111499172838284606 but also https://openfisca.org and https://github.com/CatalaLang/catala or few others alike.

That's still embrional but in FLOSS terms we have already more than enough, we just miss the law enforcing it and the schools teaching it to the masses.

eesmith 10/27/2024||
I'm pretty sure I know where you are coming from, but I disagree with your interpretation.

The centralized trust model does not require mainframes connected-to by dumb terminals. We need only look at how Visa in its first few decades used carbon copy devices and signatures, along with eventual consistency across a network of mainframes, to gain market power.

"The trust problem is easy to solve" is laughable, as you well understand by the need for "the law enforcing it and the schools teaching it to the masses."

kkfx 10/27/2024||
Well, easy to solve, means the solution is simple, not that reaching/implementing the solution is simple. Laws enforcing and school teaching are very complex, but the solution is damn simple. It's the road to it the complex part.
eesmith 10/27/2024||
So like how single-payer universal healthcare in the US is also a simple solution.
kkfx 10/28/2024||
For health care the solution is making it totally public: all other the world the more health business exists the worst results and the higher cost you get.

There are aspects of a State to function that MUST be ONLY fully public. Again it's simple, in conceptual terms, hard to get applied in reality.

paulnpace 10/27/2024||
A sales position I was working in 2017 was the first time I'd used Windows 10. I had a very urgent issue with a customer who needed our small business to confirm a change they were requesting. I needed to go through the technical details of the customer's request by reviewing their documents over the phone on my computer.

As I was on the phone and going through their documents, Windows 10 decided to install updates. I'd experienced this before and had done everything I could to try and configure Windows 10 to require my permission to run updates, but it doesn't work that way at least when you are a small business without an I.T. team.

After a few minutes I told the customer I would call them back when my computer completed its updates. The update ended up taking over 40 minutes to complete. What really bothered me the most is that Microsoft is setting the priorities of our organization - software update instead of resolving a critical customer issue.

I've never had a Linux update require so much time and definitely I've never been spontaneously and without requesting my permission locked out of my computer so Linux could run an update.

"Big Tech", as discussed in the article, appears to me to be no longer concerned with small customers and operating in such a way as to assume we are all just their guaranteed customers so they are free to do with us as they please.

ThrowawayR2 10/27/2024|
If you did have a proper IT department, they would have forced you to keep your computer up to date with security and other patches anyway. All that posts like this do is document people's irresponsibility in keeping their business-owned computer secured.
jcgrillo 10/27/2024|||
Isn't this post describing exactly the situation of a forced update interrupting work, though? Doesn't matter who does it, the effect is the same. The difference is if your IT department controls the software you at least have the option to make it less intrusive.
paulnpace 10/27/2024|||
This rates among the most arrogant pompous asshole responses I've ever encountered on HN. I ran updates exery single morning to avoid exactly this problem.
ThrowawayR2 10/27/2024||
You "ran updates every single morning" but somehow did not see the popups Windows puts up warning about required patching and did not take the "pause updates for up to 7 days" option that Windows provides? Sorry but that doesn't sound very believable.
paulnpace 10/30/2024||
IDGAF about anything from someone as arrogant as yourself.
dtquad 10/27/2024||
80% of Linux code contributions come from US big tech.
jazz9k 10/27/2024|
If you look at well maintained OSS projects (apache, php, etc). It's the same. Companies with the cash to hire developers are the reason they are successful.
jcgrillo 10/27/2024||
So this means the system is working pretty ok, tech companies are sharing the common burden of things that affect them but don't confer competitive advantage? It seems more active participation by governments (if they can figure out how to do it) would only make things better?
apples_oranges 10/27/2024|
Big tech relies on open source and, often enough, vice versa
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