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Posted by baxtr 10/27/2024

Writes and Write-Nots(paulgraham.com)
194 points | 153 commentspage 2
bsenftner 10/27/2024|
He doesn't get it. It is not "those that can write", it will be those that can communicate, really communicate versus those that cannot. It's amazing now how few people can explain themselves, without thinking that act of explaining themselves is somehow a punishment or a lead up to a punishment. Beyond that, how few developers can explain what they do without the use of empty acronyms and a host of gobbledygook that they probably only know as a pile of gobbledygook because they don't work in that stuff, they just use it, tangentially.

But the real issue is people that are not already engaged and knowledgeable about what one another are doing, the key moment when a non-tech needs to discuss a tech need with someone from the tech developer sphere: can they even communicate, and I'm not talking through a salesperson, but actually discuss what one needs and what one provides without resorting to empty jargon? Real communications needs no jargon and does not use jargon, it modifies itself to be understood by the audience, using the audience's terms.

This is critical in the coming decades: learn to communicate, professionally communicate, and I'm not talking about being a media talking head, I'm talking about learning how to speak to anyone anywhere from any stature. It's a critical skill and it is damn well needed now as well as tenfold in our fast approaching future.

randomNumber7 10/27/2024||
I think this is a bit too simple. Some people might be good at thinking (e.g. in math) but bad at writing. AI can just help them to do their job better.

I am for example very good at math and reasoning etc. But when I write something I tend to construct long complicated sentences (probably because I think that way^^) and the result whould often be considered badly written.

Now of course you can feel superiour, for your better writing style. If it makes you happy ;)

voltaireodactyl 10/27/2024|
For what it’s worth, I don’t think “reasoning” and “conveying that reasoning via writing” are quite as siloed as you suggest. Many people write long and complicated sentences in a first draft, but it is the subsequent drafts where that initial block of mental marble is carved and honed into a compelling argument. I believe it is in fact that very act of redrafting — seeing one’s work through the eyes of others — that leads to one’s own greater understanding. Skipping that step with AI limits that potential to whatever ended up in the first draft, and Hemingway’s words apply to far more than fiction.
randomNumber7 10/27/2024|||
But I can also achieve the same (act of redrafting) by refactoring my source code, working on a math formula or you know just sit there and think in my mind.

All of those are related to language, because our thinking (and also math and logic) is based on language.

But just because we think in language, does not imply that writing is the only form of reasoning. It is ok when it is your preference and certainly has a value - like other thinks.

watwut 10/27/2024|||
Imo, they just don't lead to more actually clarity inside my brain. They are just a lot of work on top of it.
lowbloodsugar 10/27/2024||
I write software that solves hard problems and makes money. I am very good at it. Computers do what I tell them, and people are happy.

The biggest obstacle to my job is when I need to convince other people of a course of action. People do not do what I ask of them, because people need a nice narrative. Indeed the reaction of others to my writing is so negative I can get into disciplinary proceedings just for writing facts. Yet, when the shit hits the fan, and people need a leader and a plan, suddenly people do what I ask and are successful, presumably looking past my communication issues because of the imminent and larger threat.

I am Autistic. I look forward to the day when my email and slack client, my JIRA client, automatically take my statements of fact and turn them into something neurotypical people won’t have a social signaling reaction to and respond to as a threat.

Also, thinking can also be doing.

And while I’m here, there’s plenty of people who can write and not think. And more who cannot think critically. Electrolytes: it’s got what plants crave.

wrs 10/27/2024||
My imminent concern is that it seems like increasing numbers of people can’t read anything more complicated than a tweet. Do we end up with a tiny group of people who can seriously read and write, just communicating with each other? I think we had something like that several centuries ago? Is this whole “universal literacy” concept just doomed?
lukev 10/27/2024||
Lots of comments in this thread are reacting against the idea that writing is required for clear thinking. I think this is true, but a little more nuanced.

Writing and clear thinking are are related in at least two ways:

1. Both good writing and good thinking require structured thought, which is the ability to organize and categorize ideas in relation to eachother.

2. Both good writing and good thinking require meeting other minds: expressing your ideas in such a way that they are also comprehensible to someone who doesn't share our own brain. This is important because it's entirely possible to _think_ you have a good thought without actually having a good thought. The ability to articulate a thought is an effective discriminator between the two scenarios.

It's probably possible to think clearly without writing, if these two elements are still present. But writing well is an effective forcing function, which is why they're so closely related.

karpathy 10/27/2024||
Can this be put in analogy to arithmetic and calculators? People had to be a lot better at mental math and calculator removed the pressure. You could imagine making similar arguments that losing the ability would be disastrous. The reasons it wasn’t was 1) people still learn and get tested in school without calculator 2) they still need to do enough mental math in day to day life without a calculator at hand so the ability hasn’t just gone to zero. Net result is people are mostly fine and there is a net improvement in arithmetic correctness across economy. Other similar aids: spellcheck, google translate, …. I feel some hesitation that these concerns are time invariant. The argument is probably that writing is different.
nabla9 10/27/2024||
Yes. The argument is that writing is different and I don't think the analogy holds. Calculators are not tools for mathematical thinking or communication. Writing is a form of processing thoughts and communication.

The "people are mostly fine" is true. People were mostly fine at the time when only the elites could write, but the society will not be the same. We are moving towards those old times.

Maybe you deal with intellectual elite from the best schools and haven't noticed[1], but adult literacy even among college educated has been on a downward trend for some time and we can see some results. Normal interactions in the corporate world are more difficult. People in middle-level management can't explain and articulate things as well as they used to. There is more communication, but it's not as efficient. One well-written report in every two weeks used to be enough. You need to be on a Zoom call 2-3 hours weekly for the same thing.

Mediocre or low quality writing is mentally taxing to read. If what you read is grammatically correct AI-slob it really kills all interest in reading and communicating in writing.

[1] Only about 10% of adults have PIAAC adult literacy level 4 or 5.

ryandv 10/27/2024|||
The difference is that with arithmetic and calculators I am simply playing the rules of a formal game without regard to the semantics of those numerical symbols. I don't care so much what the numbers mean as much as I care that I have executed the rules correctly and arrive at the "right number."

With language however we are attempting to refer to some kind of underlying meaning or reality, and an LLM will not give you the understanding of the things being referred to - only the outward representations themselves. If you are indeed interested in meaningless exchange of symbols a la Searle's Chinese Room then perhaps there is some utility in this; otherwise it's the act of digesting and comprehending meaning, and the internal cognitive processes that go into the production of the written artifact that matter, not just the written artifact itself.

inglor_cz 10/27/2024|||
Calculators don't really help you think. You need to have a concept of the calculation beforehand and you only run the technical steps on the calculator.

Writing is different. It is more akin to the left leg, when the right leg is your thinking. I am a weird combination of an author and a mathematician-turned-programmer, and both these skills are very useful in either activity; I wouldn't be able to program half as well if I didn't dump my messy ideas to a doc first, especially when the model is far from straightforward.

Writing things down is a huge feedback loop for thinking. Plenty of edge cases stick their head out of the doc once you write everything down.

sixhobbits 10/27/2024|||
I think this is a good comparison.

I wonder if some people would argue that it _was_ disastrous though?

We seem to struggle with things like putting people on the moon and not making airplanes fail compared to 50 years ago.

Maybe there was some critical mass of mental maths skills that engineers had in the 60s that we've lost now? Are we still inventing things at the same rate as before?

rcarmo 10/27/2024||
Arithmetic tends to be a one-shot thing to perform a step in a daily activity. Writing tends to be about planning or communicating more complex things.

Not that, say, doing long division in your head isn't a valuable skill, mind.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 10/27/2024||
This would be better differentiated by one’s ability to express rather than to write. Of course, a person who knows how to read as well as how to express an idea will do fine with writing as a means of expression but one can also express an idea orally and use that oration to refine their idea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging

As a person who frequently uses writing to focus my thoughts, I don’t see why one would see writing as the only way to focus their thoughts.

ji_zai 10/27/2024||
> So a world divided into writes and write-nots is more dangerous than it sounds. It will be a world of thinks and think-nots. I know which half I want to be in, and I bet you do too.

I'd disagree with "half" here because I can't imagine it being anywhere close to 50/50. I expect a power law distribution: most won't be able to write well. The ones who do will have a massive advantage, in the same way that those who can concentrate in our age of distractions have a significant advantage over those who can't.

bsenftner 10/27/2024|
Look at the situation now: I don't think 25% of the population can write a single paragraph on some non-banter non-gossip topic that does not appear as if it were written by a 4th grader. Look at the business communications actual people write, it's jargon and very simple directives like "did x happen?" Look at the logical flow of the sentences in technical white papers and wish the authors had more basic writing, basic communications practice, because their sentences do not flow.

We're already in a poverty of quality communicators. All that nonsense with Bitcoin was fast talking nonsense that sounded plausible. This is what happens when real communications breaks down: fraudulent technical products surrounded by a word salad of abused language and people afraid of looking stupid so they never ask for clarifications of the gobbledygook.

vajdagabor 10/27/2024||
I agree with Paul. Our creative and intellectual abilities are so powerful, yet there’s a real danger in handing them over to AI. That said, I think AI is still extremely useful for writing, if it complements one’s skills.

I recently published a [major philosophical work][1] that is the result of decades of thinking and three months of writing. I’m not a native English speaker, and although I know what I want to say, I often don’t know how to write it. I may not know or can’t find the right terms or phrasing, or I might make grammar mistakes. Sometimes, I can describe my ideas in a clumsy way, and I need help refining my sentences.

So, I use AI. I think, write my thoughts in my own way, and then work with AI to bring them closer to what I want. It’s hard work. Although AI can be an amazingly good writing partner, it often alters my text in ways that change the meaning completely. Even replacing a single word word with a synonym or adding a comma can turn a sentence into something totally unintended. It can be a lot of back-and-forth work to find the right paragraphs. Still, AI is a tremendous help, and my work would have been more immature and unpolished without it, even if it sometimes feels a little artificial.

Of course, it’s much more ideal to master English fully and to practice writing until it feels natural. But AI helps with that, too.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41954302

qntmfred 10/27/2024|
writing offers relatively high information density in a low bandwidth medium. but video offers high information density in a high bandwidth medium. the challenge in both cases is coming up with something to say that requires a high information density. for those who do manage to find something to say that requires a high information density format, speaking will be more effective (newspapers/books were replaced with radio which was replaced with tv). https://x.com/kenwarner/status/1840060518461010225

the infrastructure of the internet has matured enough now that we don't have to talk to each other in ASCII characters any longer. being online increasingly will mean using your voice and face (or suitable synthetic alternatives) to talk to the rest of humanity. not like TikTok though with its algorithmically driven mental corruption. and not like YouTube with its copyright oriented business model. More like early days twitter. Just everyday people talking to each other. But video. And realtime.

handfuloflight 10/28/2024|
> Just everyday people talking to each other. But video. And realtime.

Does video add not a dimension of friction over sending text? For one, you can't scan a video the same way you can scan text.

qntmfred 10/28/2024||
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