Top
Best
New

Posted by chmaynard 10/27/2024

Crossing the USA by Train(blinry.org)
355 points | 427 commentspage 2
chaps 10/28/2024|
I've taken this trip a couple times! It's a genuinely wonderful experience. Every Amtrak trip I take has some memorable experience I hope to never forget.

Tip: get the sleeping car and eat every meal they offer, especially if you travel by yourself. You'll be sat with random folk who almost always have interesting stories to share.

kccqzy 10/28/2024||
I've done that a couple of times and completely agreed. One time I sat in the dining car right next to a retired realtor who told me a whole lot about real estate in Los Angeles. (Unfortunately I forgot most of it because at that time I was a renter and haven't bought any properties yet.) Another time I was sitting next to a frail-looking grandma assisted by her granddaughter. The grandma was very talkative and told me a lot of memories from the AIDS epidemic in the 1980s.
burkaman 10/28/2024||
Agreed, and the food is surprisingly good in my experience. It's not like the stuff you get from the cafe car on a normal Amtrak ride.
wscott 10/27/2024||
I was pleased to read such positive contagious excitement and someone who can still see the wonder of the American west. And excitement of trying new experiences.
exabrial 10/28/2024||
Why though? The USA is huge! Even on a 250mph train, theoretical transit times through the Midwest are still going to take a long time!

I love rail travel when I’m in the EU, but it simply doesn’t make sense for the US and its geography.

Here’s my wild opinion so feel free to disagree and point out the shortcomings… Air travel could be a lot nicer, like the days of TWA and on plane lounges; and before you got tased for getting out of your seat to walk around.

wpm 10/28/2024||
Transcontinental train travel across the US? No, it probably doesn’t make sense to design a system for that alone.

But just like European trains don’t only run from Lisbon to Moscow, US trains could very easily set up popular routes from small, medium, and large cities that are around 100-500miles from each other. The new Borealis route, which is nothing more than an additional short run of the Empire Builder, from Chicago to Minneapolis started turning a profit a few days after it started running.

What do you get when you add up all the obvious city-pair routes in all regions? You get a transcontinental system that while likely not most people’s first choice for a NYC-LA trip, is possible without being painful. Not unlike the system that existed before the subsidized highways destroyed the private passenger rail system in the US. We know it’s possible here because it already existed.

seadan83 10/28/2024|||
Why? IMHO the best travel is not about how fast you can get there. Seeing the land from the ground is an immense experience. More so than a car since interstates are dug out, the land trains cross is amazing. Wild horses in the southwest, mountains in the west. And - you can walk around, observation car, dining car (nothing quite like making bar friends on a train), with close to zero risk of getting tased!
cowmix 10/28/2024|||
The best family trip my wife and I did with my kids (8 and 12) was Amtrak from AZ -> DC -> NYC. It was relaxing, fun and different. We even did it in coach (so no private room) and it was still amazing.

We flew home -- and even though the flight time was about 5.5 hours - it was stressful and a let down. Your family's milage may vary.

Klonoar 10/28/2024|||
It can make sense in the USA; not every trip is coast to coast. The northeast corridor is a good example of where trains work well (ish) and could be ramped up further.
BobaFloutist 10/29/2024|||
I want a US train route that functions like a cruise ship: You travel at night, sleep on board, and then the train stops for a few days at points of interest and you get out and wander around.
kaliqt 10/28/2024||
It actually does make sense. America has more amazing landmarks in one country than any country on earth.

If trains were more prevalent, each would become more of a hub and cities would grow around them.

There are no airports situated on top of said landmarks.

brandonmenc 10/27/2024||
I finally took an overnight train from Chicago to Pennsylvania to try it out.

Got an Amtrak Roomette. It cost a fortune (relative to flying.) Could not fall asleep at all due to the jerky motion.

Do not recommend.

I have no idea why anyone would prefer this to flying.

lucb1e 10/28/2024|
Similar experience in Germany, felt like I did not sleep a wink. I did get a lot of audiobook done during that time though! (And I felt surprisingly okay during the next day, so perhaps my brain did get some amount/form of downtime)

Had expected the train to do like 60 km/h or so because there is no rush, everyone's sleeping, saves costs (wear and energy), easier scheduling by having the same speed as freight, and if the trains normally handle more-than-double speeds then this would be butter smooth. Nah, not a chance. From start to finish it felt like it was springing from station to station, with pretty old equipment so it was loud, plus every station of every tiny village was bright because no curtains, and the shaking and squeaking around curves and especially points/switches were madness.

Asked the passenger from my cabin who got off at the same stop in the morning: he slept great!

Maybe when the novelty wears off and you get used to it, it gets better? I can report back when I do this next time, but for now I'm also left wondering if it's a personal thing. (I'm sufficiently concerned about the rate of climate warming that I'll definitely try this again, it's only a matter of when I'd travel to a sufficiently far destination)

ghaff 10/28/2024||
Those few times I've taken a sleeper, both private (Europe) and shared (China) rooms, I haven't slept as if I were in my own bed but I got a decent enough amount of sleep to call it a a "night's rest." But, then, it's also not unusual that, jet-lag or not, I'll have trouble getting to sleep in a hotel especially first night or so of a trip. So I guess I sleep well enough on trains (and on lie-flat seats in planes).
rubyfan 10/27/2024||
When I was 7 my family moved from the West Coast to the East. We didn’t have much money and my mom was deathly afraid of flying so we took a train. Seeing the U.S. this way is a treat and I highly recommend. Like TFA you meet interesting people, see and experience new things that you just don’t get to see traveling other ways.
trash_cat 10/27/2024||
I did the California Zephyr and it was the most amazing any type of ride I have ever done. It was surreal. Do recommend.
itomato 10/27/2024||
Ditto. Roomette is highly recommended.
mosaic360 10/27/2024||
tell us more :)
trash_cat 10/27/2024||
As a European everything felt like being in a movie. Especially going through desert it felt like I travelled back in time. Literally Wild West. I got see forests, mountains, canyons, and desert all in the same ride. That's definately not possible where I come from.
dpb001 10/27/2024||
Years ago I decided to take the Lake Shore Limited from Albany to Chicago for a business trip just to have a different experience. Two things I didn’t expect: 1. It was very difficult to get pre-approved for the expense because my employer’s process had to make sure I wasn’t costing them extra money. Somehow this was not an issue with plane tickets. 2. Overnight stops interrupted my sleep (in seat) as boarders banged luggage around and discussed seat selection when groups were involved.

Interesting, but would book a room if traveling this way next time.

db48x 10/27/2024||
It really is a nice way to travel. I did SF → Orlando and back a handful of times.
enews01 10/27/2024||
I always try to travel by train if I can when im travelling Intercity. Its always so enjoyable and quite cheap.
zbshqoa 10/27/2024|
Don't get me wrong, but there are third world countries that have better train infrastructures
dagw 10/27/2024||
The US has actually pretty good train infrastructure, it's just almost entirely dedicated to freight. The US moves far more goods by rail, farther and cheaper than just about any other country in the world.
ta1243 10/27/2024|||
> just about any other country in the world.

Well the US is the 3rd largest country in the world, with the 3rd largest population, and in terms of rail tonne-km is also 3rd.

I.e. it sits where you'd expect, per sq km and per capita.

Passenger wise though it's 10th.

zbshqoa 10/27/2024||||
The question is why they don't develop it for people as well. Instead of just "let's add another lane" for cars
saalweachter 10/27/2024|||
We did, and then when airplanes came around, it turned out that people/other interests found air travel better than train travel for most intercity travel.

Even on the East Coast, there used to be way more rail lines that took passengers -- if this were a hundred years ago, I could have walked a mile or two to a spur which would take me to one of the mid-sized cities connected to The Big City by commuter rail; now they're mostly rail trails.

xenadu02 10/28/2024||
That is not correct.

The railroads deliberately killed the passenger business because it has worse operating ratios and needs more capex. Investors and execs believed (and still believe) railroads are in long-term managed decline so capex and labor costs must be avoided wherever possible.

To give an example: Caltrain used to run all the way to LA. It was a profitable line the day Southern Pacific killed it. They used shills to buy up all the tickets for phantom riders then used the low passenger boarding numbers to justify to the US Railroad Commission that they should be allowed to close the route.

This strategy or variations of it were used all across the USA to deliberately kill profitable passenger service because it made the company financials look better: no need to buy or refurbish passenger cars nor pay stewards and conductors. Operating ratio looks better? Mission accomplished! Making less money doesn't make sense but profit is almost irrelevant if you think the whole business is in long-term decline. Better to kill anything that might require future capex or labor and instead optimize to get the most juice with the least squeeze of existing fruits.

Much like the shutdown of public transit across the USA. Who Framed Roger Rabbit is a semi-documentary for which the real-life villain General Motors was convicted of monopoly action in federal court! But the judge only fined them $1 because all the movers and shakers thought cars and airplanes were the future so who gives a crap about public transit, trains or the lot?

Passenger train service and public transit were systematically dismantled on purpose by elites who thought they knew better.

dagw 10/27/2024||||
Unlike in Europe, where rail maintenance is heavily subsidised by the government, in the US it is paid for by the private rail operators to a much greater extent. Thus the rail operators have much more say over how the rail is used and obviously priorities the more profitable traffic, which in the US is cargo.

So if the US government would wanted to build out cross country passenger rail they would either have to build new tracks, or use eminent domain to take back control of the existing tracks. Both options would be very expensive and wildly unpopular.

zbshqoa 10/27/2024|||
Which Europe are you talking about? Europe is a collection of independent counties and what you just mention is all wrong.

Most of the European railway companies have been privatized and there are companies that run the rail network and companies that run the train. Subsidies are not a thing in many of the European countries

bpye 10/27/2024||
If you look at the UK for example, the physical network is publicly owned and maintained by National Rail, whilst the ToCs are (currently) mostly private. That said the ToCs are also going to switch to publicly owned over the next few years.
Symbiote 10/27/2024|||
They could also adjust the regulations for cargo trains to make mixing freight and passenger trains better.

For example, by limiting the maximum length of a freight train.

Then relatively minor subsidies (e.g. additional passing loops) could be used to improve reliability.

pfdietz 10/27/2024||
Or, they could let the market decide. The current system seems to work for most people.
Lammy 10/27/2024||||
It was, but then all the Class-Ⅰ rail carriers merged until we were left with a west-coast duopoly (UP and BNSF) and an east-coast duopoly (CSX and NS) and they closed all the “redundant” lines they could.

See Abandoned & Out-Of-Service Rail Lines map: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=10akDabya8L6nWIJi-4...

trinix912 10/27/2024||||
Probably because most cities are so spaced out you'd still need a car to get from home to the train station and from the train station to your office when taking the train to work, for example. So it's easier to just drive there.
throw0101d 10/27/2024|||
> Probably because most cities are so spaced out […]

The US population is fairly concentrated around the 'edges'. About 40% of the population lives in a coastal county:

* https://ecowatch.noaa.gov/thematic/coastal-population

And two-thirds of the population with-in 100 miles (160 km) of the border:

* https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/border-zone

shiroiushi 10/28/2024||
You're ignoring how non-dense everything actually is in those places. Americans no longer live in walkable cities and towns like in the early 20th century before cars became popular. After WWII, with the rise of the automobile, the inner cities emptied out and everyone who could afford to moved out to the suburbs. So now, even in a "city" in America (unless it's Manhattan), you absolutely need a car to get anywhere, because nothing is walkable.

It's not like 1905 when you could just walk from your home in Smalltown USA to the local train station, buy a ticket, and get a ride to the nearest city, and get out and walk from that station to interesting places.

Any train trip, even if you look only at the eastern states, is likely to require a car ride on one or both ends to get to/from your source/destination to/from the station. If you have to drive an hour just to get to a train station, and another hour to get from the destination station to your final station, it's probably faster and easier and much cheaper to just drive the whole way. Don't forget dealing with parking, car rental, etc.; you'd probably have to take taxis, and those are quite expensive.

The fundamental problem here is density. America doesn't have it any more.

zbshqoa 10/27/2024|||
So it's easier to drive to San Francisco from Seattle instead of parking your car at the train station in Seattle, take a train and then do your business on downtown SF, come back to Seattle and take your car back home?

(It's a figurative example I'm not sure there's a train from Seattle to SF)

trinix912 10/27/2024||
Of course not, but even with state of art train technology (let's say 250mph), that would still be an over 3 hour commute each way (just the railway part!). If it's just for a business trip every now in a while, it's faster to just fly there.

I'm just saying, this is such a rare use case that it's not as high of a priority as expanding the roads that 80% or more of the residents in a city use daily. Whereas for freight it makes a ton of sense.

(fun fact, there actually is a train route there!)

dagw 10/27/2024|||
it's faster to just fly there.

As some who used to travel for meetings quite a lot to a city 3 hours away by high speed rail, it really isn't. Once you take into account that you can show up for your train 5 mins before it leaves, plus the fact that the train station is almost always much closer to where you want to be, the difference in time between trains and planes pretty much disappears for shorter trips.

Plus the train is just so much nicer and more comfortable. It's quieter. Your seats are much bigger and have more legroom than even the nicest business class seats. You can get up and walk around if you want. You often have a restaurant car where you can sit and grab a drink or something to eat. Train travel is just so much more relaxing compared to flying.

rsynnott 10/27/2024||||
> that would still be an over 3 hour commute each way (just the railway part!). If it's just for a business trip every now in a while, it's faster to just fly there.

Even for flights which take 45 minutes in the air, I’d never expect to get to the airport, through security, through all the boarding and unboarding nonsense, and from the destination airport to where I was actually going, in 3 hours.

IIRC last time I was in Seattle airport, after I got off the plane (which was late, of course), I spent half an hour just walking through airport and to the rather inconveniently located light rail. Everything involving flying takes forever.

mitthrowaway2 10/27/2024|||
3 hours is about Osaka to Tokyo, a route that sees a massive volume of business travel on the bullet train in Japan, arguably far more than flying. SF to Seattle would be about 1300 km which is more like Hiroshima to Morioka, around 6.5 hours by train including a connection; I think at that point there'd be a split in favour of flying, but around a third of travellers would probably still opt for the train due to its comfort and convenience.
shiroiushi 10/28/2024||
There's huge differences between the US and Japan. When I travel from my home in Tokyo to Osaka or any other city by shinkansen, I take public transit (Tokyo Metro specifically) to get from my home to Tokyo station or Shinagawa, and then transfer to the shinkansen. At the destination city, I just get off and either walk to wherever I'm going, or transfer to another local rail or subway line.

You just can't do that in the US, outside some very select situations (like going from somewhere inside DC to Manhattan NYC). From SF to Seattle, how do you get to the station in SF? In Seattle, how do you get from the station to your destination? What do you do to get around in Seattle? Generally, you need a car, which means renting a car, which is really expensive. The US is set up to handle this at airports pretty well: you get off your plane and go to the Hertz counter and pick up a car (and then after your trip is over and you've returned the car, get arrested for auto theft when Hertz reports your car as stolen--don't use Hertz). I haven't tried trains on the west coast, but on the east coast, I've never seen train stations set up with rental car counters.

refurb 10/27/2024|||
Because Americans prefer to fly?
dagw 10/27/2024|||
Relative to the current situation or in absolute terms? If there was a Shinkansen style trains between LA and SF with the same quality and timetable as the Shinkansen between Tokyo and Osaka, do you not think Americans would flock to it?
refurb 10/27/2024||
Some might, not many. Most Americans go for the shortest travel time.

The CA high speed rail is targeting a 2h40min travel time between SF and LA.

The flight saved you more than an hour.

Maybe if it was far cheaper than flying there might be more demand.

Klonoar 10/28/2024|||
A train might make that hour up by not needing to get in and out of SFO/LAX/etc.

In Tokyo, they’re fast partly because you don’t need to trek to the airport (yes, even Haneda) and deal with security etc. You just… get on the train and bam are downtown in the next place.

alamortsubite 10/28/2024|||
Sadly, with commercial air travel the time a passenger spends on the plane between say SF and LA represents only a small portion of their total travel time. This is commonly overlooked or not understood by people unfamiliar with traveling by train.
refurb 10/28/2024||
I’ve flown it plenty of times. Get to the airport 60min before flight, and you’re out of LAX in less than 30 min.

How early do you need to get to the train station?

Not to mention if you miss your train how quickly can you jump on another train?

I’m not arguing it’s not a nice alternative, but there is a reason why flying is still highly in demand even with high quality rail systems like in Europe.

alamortsubite 10/28/2024||
You arrive at the station when the train is about to depart, not an hour or more before like you're forced to when flying. But even better, the station is in the center of town, rather than the middle of nowhere, reaching which again significantly lengthens your travel time.

You can jump on another flight faster than you can jump on another train? I rarely fly more than a couple times a month, but for me this is never true.

refurb 10/28/2024|||
Depends on the setup no?

When I took the trains in Europe I’d show up early, get tickets, find out what platform.

And stations in the middle of cities? Maybe, but unlikely building new infrastructure in existing cities.

And sure, if I want to go from SF to LA, there are 20+ flights per day. Are there going to be 20+ trains?

alamortsubite 10/28/2024||
> When I took the trains in Europe I’d show up early

Why would you do that? Were you worried the train would depart early? Boarding a train is immediate.

> And stations in the middle of cities? Maybe, but unlikely building new infrastructure in existing cities.

1) "Maybe?" 2) The post to which you responded asked about a hypothetical Shinkansen style train from SF to LA, not one connecting El Segundo and Millbrae.

> And sure, if I want to go from SF to LA, there are 20+ flights per day. Are there going to be 20+ trains?

Going from Tokyo to Osaka is like taking the subway in terms of train frequency, so a lot more than that. There also aren't sprawling terminals to traverse on either end, which you quite likely will be forced to do when changing flights.

Let's talk about punctuality. If you think you're content don't look at the numbers for Shinkansen. As for air travel, clearly if you favor flying narrowbodies between cities only a few hundred miles apart you're an extremely patient person, but did you realize your flights between SF and LA will be lucky to break 90% on-time reliability? As a lifelong non-rev I do everything I can to avoid short flights like that.

SoftTalker 10/28/2024|||
> But even better, the station is in the center of town

Only better if you live in the center of town.

saagarjha 10/28/2024||
That's why you have public transit to take you to the center of town.
SoftTalker 10/28/2024||
You can just as easily (and usually do) have public transit to take you to the airport.
saagarjha 10/29/2024||
Yes, but the airport is not in the center of town. What is usually the case is the public transit takes you to the center, and then you take a second trip to the airport. Meanwhile the train station is generally a lot closer. These aren't particularly good examples because they are from the US and also what I have experience with, but if you look at say San Jose the public transit converges on Diridon and from there you can take the light rail to a vaguely airport-ish location. In SF you can take city transit to the BART backbone down market, then you take BART to the actual airport way down near Millbrae. Meanwhile the actual station (again, we're stretching it because San Francisco doesn't actually have long-distance rail) for, say, Caltrain is well-connected and much closer.
mitthrowaway2 10/28/2024||||
When there's no bridge, it leaves the impression that people prefer to swim!
zbshqoa 10/27/2024|||
How do you know if they never had the option to use a train?
z3ncyberpunk 10/27/2024|||
We have derailments monthly due to poor track conditions... We have terrible pay and conditions for operators who are exploited by both the companies and then the government. We do not have pretty good infrastructure.
trinix912 10/27/2024|||
There are also first world countries that have shittier trains than the ones here. I'm saying this from first hand experience.
zbshqoa 10/27/2024||
I don't think you can compare the most advanced and rich country to other first world countries.

Someone can definitely do worst, that's out of discussion. We are looking at the upside potential.

The picture of this post show interstate trains that are old, slow and dirty. I'm sure standards can improve.

carapace 10/27/2024||
USA is an early adopter?
More comments...