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Posted by Gaishan 10/28/2024

Could you pass this 8th grade test from 1912?(onepercentrule.substack.com)
69 points | 142 commentspage 3
EncomLab 10/28/2024|
I saw a quote the other day - "We used to teach Latin and Greek in High School, now we teach remedial English in College." - seems pretty much on point. Massachusetts, a state renowned for it's commitment to education, is voting next month to eliminate it's High School exit exam - which if passed would leave only 7 states with any form of statewide graduation requirement. Feels pretty regressive - the soft-bigotry of low expectations coming to the forefront.
m000 10/28/2024||
It feels that these educational regressions are quite intentional and pave the way to a more authoritarian society.

It is hard to apply an agenda on an educated and internet-connected populace. Internet connectivity is still useful as a control/propaganda mechanism, as the available content can be centrally influenced (think RT News ban, "community guidelines" moderation, etc.). So it is chosen to gradually erode education over time using a variety of pretexts, so that the population will gradually regress from self-thinking citizens to obedient subjects.

xattt 10/28/2024|||
Ontario schools haven’t had a formal exit exam for as long as I can remember. Final exams of individual classes was what defined your exit grade (usually 20-30%).

If you are referring to the exit exam in the link, you also have to remember that grade 8 in 1912 was available to a privileged few. This filtered out people with learning difficulties whose families didn’t feel like spending money on school was a worthwhile investment.

Those that had the means to attend school in the 1900s also had time to dedicate to study.

ForHackernews 10/28/2024|||
There used to be jobs that would hire without a high school diploma. Now it's harder and harder to find one that will take people without a college degree.

What's 21st century capitalism's plan for people who aren't any good at Latin and Greek?

EncomLab 10/28/2024|||
It's not a direct analogy - it's a commentary on the expectations of students. Learning Latin was a fundamental part of a science or medical education, Greek was a fundamental part of what we would call a humanities education - they were the keys to communicating across boundaries in an era when English had not yet become the "global language". If anything this makes the fact that there are entire school districts in the US wherein not a single student can read to grade level even more troubling - how can someone possibly succeed at anything other than being a TikTok star without the ability clearly communicate?
watwut 10/28/2024||
Greek is not useful to anything today.

Also, you are comparing expectations on top students in one case and expectations on overall population including the lowest ranking students. Likewise, reading at "grade level" is fairly high standard that massive amount of Kentucky 1912 kids would not clear ... because no one taught them to our current grade level standard.

Americans colleges teach biology, physics, chemistry to a pretty high level. Entrance to the top universities is also massively more competitive then it used to be.

EncomLab 10/28/2024||
That competition would seem to make it even more important that we are better educating students today - especially when they are not just competing against kids from Kentucky.
watwut 10/28/2024||
Educating in Greek or Latin? Probably not.
the_third_wave 10/28/2024||||
> What's 21st century capitalism's plan for people who aren't any good at Latin and Greek?

The answer depends on who you ask. It you ask this to what you probably would call 'capitalists' the answer would be "school choice, school vouchers, home schooling and more vocational schooling instead of useless college 'degrees' in lesbian dance theory and the like". Ask those who consider themselves to be the "defenders of the oppressed" and the answer would be "more money for teachers (unions), get rid of standardised tests because they are 'racist', get rid of those 'books written by dead white men' and replace them with books by 'diverse' authors, get rid of school choice, close top education schools because they attract mostly asian and white pupils, lower admission demands for 'diverse' people, cancel student debt, etc.".

I think the former approach is more likely to lead to a return to sanity while the latter will just lead to more dismal [1] results, what do you think?

[1] interestingly enough my phone autocorrected that word to 'Disney' which somehow seems fitting

watwut 10/28/2024||
The former are not capitalist response. They are the response of conservative right that has zero to do with capitalism and a lot to do with wish for social control and forced social hierarchy. Homeschooling movement project is and was all about forcing ideological and religious conformity.

And the latter one are to large extend strawman.

FirmwareBurner 10/28/2024|||
>What's 21st century capitalism's plan for people who aren't any good at Latin and Greek?

Let them become homeless and addicted to fentanyl and slowly wither away and die or have to resort to crime to survive then lock them up and tax the people who are good at Latin and Greek to pay for their upkeep or UBI so they don't get robbed or murdered on the street by the people who aren't good at Latin or Greek and have nothing left to loose.

highcountess 10/28/2024||
[flagged]
readthenotes1 10/28/2024||
Not a chance

I can't even read it on my small phone screen and I'll be d*mned if I have to zoom in

GoblinSlayer 10/28/2024|
Use a magnifying glass.
cocok 10/28/2024||
The teachers misspelled Serbia and Romania, but expect little American kids to know where these are.
userbinator 10/28/2024||
Those appear to be the historically correct spellings:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Roumania

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Servia

jcranmer 10/28/2024|||
The Balkans of 112 years ago did not look like the Balkans of today (for starters, Serbia no longer borders Turkey), and countries' spelling changes over time. For example, Turkey now desires that English-speaking people use Türkiye instead.

But maybe it's too much to ask of modern Americans to understand that spellings of proper nouns can and do change over time.

fallingknife 10/28/2024|||
So did you. The correct spelling of "Serbia" is Србија, or Srbija. Anything else is arbitrary.
drewcoo 10/28/2024||
They were in sorta different places then . . .

Remember that big hot war in the 90s?

And there was that thing in the 40s, too . . .

cocok 10/28/2024||
> Remember that big hot war in the 90s?

Ah, when the Servians shot down the invisible airplane, because they didn't see it. I remember :-)

userbinator 10/28/2024|
"eneeavor" "kalsomining" "dodr" "Decline I."

Is this AI-generated? It certainly has all the signs of being so.

I've read real books from the late 19th and early 20th century, and while occasional typos do appear, their density here is suspicious.

Thus my conclusion is that I don't think this is a real 8th grade test.

Jtsummers 10/28/2024||
Real or fake, it's not AI generated. It's been around for over a decade (this same one, with those typos).

https://www.bullittcountyhistory.com/bchistory/schoolexam191... - on the answers page they also acknowledge the typo on "eneeavor".

https://headsup.scoutlife.org/would-you-pass-this-test/ - 2013

userbinator 10/28/2024||
Thank you for finding the truth. Books from that era would likely have been subjected to far more careful proofreading, which explains the typo density (or lack thereof) compared to this.
amgreg 10/28/2024|||
“Decline I” is an instruction for the student to provide the first person pronoun in all cases: I (nominative), me (accusative/dative/ablative), my (genitive), mine (genitive substantive). (I have borrowed the case names from Latin, with which I am more familiar. I think the English cases are nominative, objective, possessive.)

I believe the misspellings in the spelling section are intentional so that the student will identify them—I am guessing that’s the point.

edflsafoiewq 10/28/2024||
"eneeavor" is I think the only misspelling in the spelling section, so I don't think it is intentional. Perhaps the test was read aloud.
edflsafoiewq 10/28/2024|||
"Kalsomining" is the -ing form of "kalsomine", ie. whitewash.

"Decline I" is a request to decline the pronoun "I".

userbinator 10/28/2024||
I'll accept these as being legitimate, but that doesn't explain "dodr" nor "eneeavor".

Edit: there's also "secrate" and "Pres dent"

edflsafoiewq 10/28/2024||
They do appear to be simple typos.

edit: The test seems to come from this page from the county's museum: https://www.bullittcountyhistory.com/bchistory/schoolexam191.... The WayBack machine records the first snapshot in 2012, so AI seems unlikely.

They note the spelling errors

> Note that there are several typesetting mistakes on the test including a mistake in the spelling list. The word "eneeavor" should be "endeavor." This version of the exam was probably a master version given out to the schools (note that the spelling words wouldn’t be written on a test.) The museum has been told that the exam was handed out in a scroll form (that is why the paper is long.) The typos would have been corrected simply by contacting the teachers and telling them to mark their copies accordingly, much like would be done today. And there might not be quite as many typos as you think; "Serbia" for example was indeed spelled "Servia" back then.

llm_trw 10/28/2024|||
>Is this AI-generated? It certainly has all the signs of being so.

Current generation LLMs does not make smelling mistakes, only humans do.

throwaway313373 10/28/2024|||
I think that the person was talking about image generation models.

Even the best of existing image generation models often spell words hilariously wrong when asked to generate an image containing text.

raverbashing 10/28/2024||||
Correct, they ddon't'

But sometimes their messassage gets mangled in intersting ways

juahan 10/28/2024|||
At least in Finnish I’ve seen some, not often but they are there.
wiml 10/28/2024|||
What is "Decline I" a typo of? I interpret is as a request to decline (that is, give the inflected forms of) the pronoun "I".
wazoox 10/28/2024||
Could also be "Decline one", in any case, not a typo. "I" can be declined as subjective I, objective me, reflexive myself, possessive my, independent possessive mine.
fallingsquirrel 10/28/2024|||
I've never seen an LLM typo a word in normal usage. Who knows if it's fake, but I highly doubt it's AI-generated.
Sophira 10/28/2024|||
It's true that LLMs are very good at reproducing correctly spelled text - but we're looking at an image here, and image-generating AIs aren't so good at generating text in most cases. They've gotten a lot better recently, but they're still not quite there yet.

(To be clear, I don't believe this is actually generated by AI, but in this case, but since we're looking at an image, I can see why some people might be concerned that it might be AI given the misspellings.)

fallingsquirrel 10/28/2024||
If it were a generated image there would be giveaway malformed/deformed letters, but these letterforms are immaculate.

But yes in general it's a reasonable concern to have.

userbinator 10/28/2024|||
Generative AI tends to produce this sort of output.

https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/fcell...