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Posted by pbohun 3/29/2025

Convert Linux to Windows(philipbohun.com)
371 points | 452 commentspage 9
ranger_danger 3/29/2025|
> NOTE: I am not against Apple or Microsoft. They have amazing engineers! I don't think they're being malicious. Rather, I think the incentives for these companies are improperly aligned.

Improperly aligned incentives? Who gets to say what that is?

Is it "improper" to maximize profit per their own board's guidelines?

I have a feeling OP has some predefined notion of nobility they expect people to somehow operate under.

hagbard_c 3/29/2025||
> Is it "improper" to maximize profit per their own board's guidelines?

From the standpoint of the end user the incentives are improperly aligned. If they had made hammers they would have included licence agreements for their use with specific types of nails and actively prevented users from using competitor's nails. They also would have made sure yesterday's hammer would not be sufficient to hammer in today's nail, they would have added camera's to observe what the user was doing so as to sell 'targeted' advertising - during which the hammer would not strike any nails but would sing like the singing sword in Who Framed Roger Rabbit - and they would have made sure that no matter how agile the user was with his hammer the thing would never be 100% reliable.

Of course hammers are far less complex than computers and operating systems. Maybe this is because they're made by tool manufacturers and not by tech companies, maybe it is because they're old tech. A modern hammer is what Ford would have produced if he had listened to his customers who asked him for a faster horse so maybe there is a whole world of construction efficiency waiting for the Henry Ford of Hammersmiths. Or, maybe - probably - sometimes it is better to get that faster horse, that titanium hammer or that free software operating system which works for you and nobody else.

cratermoon 3/30/2025||
Worth reading: Unauthorized Bread. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...
CRConrad 4/6/2025||
> Worth reading

Anything by Cory Doctorow usually is.

voidspark 3/29/2025|||
Yes it's a value judgement by the author. Maximizing profit by any means necessary is pathological. Many here would agree with that.
CRConrad 4/6/2025||
> Improperly aligned incentives? Who gets to say what that is?

Anyone worth calling human.

> Is it "improper" to maximize profit per their own board's guidelines?

If to the exclusion of all else, then yes, wildly so.

> I have a feeling OP has some predefined notion of nobility they expect people to somehow operate under.

Having a set of values is what separates Man from (most of) the other animals.

HTH!

pdonis 3/30/2025||
To the extent binary distribution is "unstable" on Linux, it's because users aren't expected to just download random binaries from wherever, as is normal on Windows (and Mac, for that matter). Users are expected to either obtain binaries from their distro, or compile them from source. In either case, all of the issues about binary distribution being "unstable" are invisible to users. Which is the point. People who want the broken Windows software model can just..run Windows. The last thing any sane Linux user wants is to make Linux into Windows. I run Linux to avoid Windows.
scheeseman486 3/30/2025||
There are a lot of reasons to avoid Windows outside of package/software management.

Linux has appimage, it's already capable of running "loose" native executables like Windows does. Flatpak, Snap and Docker all break the "distro repository or compile from source" model. The primary method of playing video games is installing Steam and running Windows software inside a container. This purist vision you have of Linux doesn't exist.

pdonis 3/30/2025||
> This purist vision you have of Linux doesn't exist.

It does on my computer, and I suspect on a lot of Linux users' computers.

scheeseman486 3/30/2025||
Linux users? That is, people who use a device that runs Linux? Like Android?

Or you mean desktop Linux users, though there aren't "a lot" of those. There's the business/corpo/science deployments but I don't think we're talking about that, but rather specifically home use. So we're talking mostly enthusiasts. I'd imagine many of those and perhaps even most at least lightly game and Steam is effectively the default place to purchase games on Linux. Do you run anything in an emulator? Impure! Purge with fire!

The software repository+compile from source paradigm isn't "Linux", it's not even "desktop Linux". Linux can execute software in a myriad of different ways, what makes Linux Linux is that it's infinitely flexible.

CRConrad 4/6/2025|||
> > > > Users are expected to either obtain binaries from their distro, or compile them from source.

> > > This purist vision you have of Linux doesn't exist.

> > It does on my computer, and I suspect on a lot of Linux users' computers.

> Linux users? That is, people who use a device that runs Linux? Like Android?

I'm fairly sure the overwhelming majority of Android users only use binaries from "their distro", i.e. from the Play Store.

> The software repository+compile from source paradigm isn't "Linux", it's not even "desktop Linux".

Hey, you were the first to drag Android into this. By your own measure, the overwhelming majority of "Linux" users follow exactly "the software repository+compile from source paradigm" (albeit the "+compile from source" term equals zero in their equation).

pdonis 3/30/2025|||
> you mean desktop Linux users

Obviously, since that's what the article and this discussion is about.

> there aren't "a lot" of those

Depends on what you consider "a lot", I guess. The article that this discussion is talking about apparently thinks there are enough to make its proposal for "converting Linux to Windows" worth an effort.

scheeseman486 3/31/2025||
> Obviously, since that's what the article and this discussion is about.

I was just making the point that Linux isn't any one thing, it's everything. You want an OS handles things the way you want? Well, you do, and others should be given the same privilege. It's silly to stamp your feet about certain implementations or features existing within the Linux ecosystem, the whole point of FOSS is that they can all exist.

> The article that this discussion is talking about apparently thinks there are enough to make its proposal for "converting Linux to Windows" worth an effort.

From the article: "Imagine we made a new Linux distro. This distro would provide a desktop environment that looks close enough to Windows that a Windows user could use it without training."

It isn't proposed as a distro for people who use Linux, but for people who use Windows but may want to move to Linux. I was one of those people, I switched my gaming PC from Windows to EndevourOS last year, though I've been using various distros for the past 20 years on other devices. I switched because Windows is becoming a shit show. I know my way around Linux, I use Blender, Krita, Gimp, Inkscape and Reaper, all native apps, but sometimes I just want to install a Windows application since the functionality I require makes it's simply necessary. Dual booting is a massive hassle, VMs fuck up productivity workflows and while I can sometimes get it working with Wine it's a hassle. I might not use the proposed OS, but the components that would allow for seamless installation of Windows software? I'd love for those to exist.

dartharva 3/30/2025|||
Speak for yourself. I have been using Linux for a decade and would want nothing more if standalone application setups like those in Windows became the norm of software distribution.

Centralized package management is a curse. Apps should be responsible for their own updates, not the OS.

HappMacDonald 3/30/2025|||
OTOH I view application installation as a separate skill from $THING_THIS_APP_DOES.

So I would rather the app authors just focus on perfecting their apps, while said apps can then be packaged and distributed in bulk by different sets of people trained to handle those challenges.

What I very certainly do NOT want is:

* Apps automatically checking for updates on startup — since they can't check while they are off — leading to needlessly leaked data crossing the network about exactly when I'm starting up exactly which apps (since they dial home to predictable locations regardless of TLS usage)

* Apps constantly filling systray with their own bespoke updaters (and "accelerators" which just means the app is running 24/7 but minimized to tray ;P )

* App launches updater, updater window says "can't update because app is running". Close app, wait for update, now I have to go hunt down the document I had originally opened the app with. Next time an app launches an updater, I leave it on its splash screen and go to close the app.. naturally that also closes the updater since this time around the one is a sub-process of the other. (I recall earlier versions of Wireshark causing me much grief on these fronts, for example)

* More diverse attack surface area for hackers to infect my PC: instead of trying to juke a distro who has at least some experience and vested interest in defending against poisoning, just juke any single software author less specialized in distribution security and take over their distribution channel instead.

ndiddy 3/30/2025||||
Great news, there's a distro called Slackware that eschews centralized package management (besides optionally delivering updates for preinstalled packages). It's been around for ~20 years before you started using Linux. If you'd like to rid yourself of the curse of centralized package management in favor of running "./configure && make && sudo make install" like a real man, you should give it a try.
dartharva 3/30/2025||
Standalone app installers ≠ compiling from source
pdonis 3/30/2025||||
> Apps should be responsible for their own updates, not the OS.

Distros are not quite "the OS". You don't need a distro to run Linux.

The role distros play as far as Linux applications are concerned is more like an app store in the Windows (or Mac) world. Of course Apple has locked down their smartphones that way basically since their inception, and their desktop OS has been becoming more and more like that. So has Windows.

dartharva 3/30/2025||
> Of course Apple has locked down their smartphones that way... So has Windows.

Is that where we want desktop Linux to go?

pdonis 3/30/2025||
If you mean, do we want desktop Linux to have distros, that ship sailed several decades ago. Yes, you don't need a distro to run Linux (as I said before), but most people who run Linux use one.

However, Linux distros, while they play an app store-like role, are still very different from the Windows or Mac app stores. First, they don't restrict what else you can install on the system; you don't have to jailbreak your Linux computer to install something that the distro doesn't package. Second, they don't insist that you set up an account and hand over your personal information, or nag you constantly if you don't do that.

graemep 3/30/2025|||
Given that every OS is heading towards centralised application updates. Windows Store does that AFAIK. I am guessing MacOS's store does too. The major mobile OSes and its the only way almost all users install anything.
int_19h 3/30/2025||
The big difference on those other OSes is that packaging is done by the original author, and they don't have to worry about things like distro release cycles (and package freezes etc).

Windows Store is most similar to Flathub in that regard.

johnea 3/30/2025|||
Thank you very much! I was about to post almost the same thing, so I'll reply to your post instead (and upvote):

It's pretty funny to read a critisism of linux s/w distribution along the lines of the dificulty of distributing binaries.

This is one of the biggest security vulnerabilities of windows. 3rd parties distributing binary executables.

At least in a typical linux distro the binary is built by the distributing org, with some review of where the source comes from.

Downloading a windows app from the internet one has no idea what source is included in that binary.

I'm also not a fan of non-distro based systems such as flatpack. Again, I would prefer my binaries built by the distribution, or if need be, locally.

dartharva 3/30/2025|||
> At least in a typical linux distro the binary is built by the distributing org, with some review of where the source comes from.

This "feature" falls apart for nonfree software, which most commercial apps are. You can use Spotify and Steam's PPA but will similarly have no idea what source was included in them.

nice_byte 3/30/2025||||
explain to me why the HELL should i be limited to only running binaries that my distro vendor has deigned to provide, or jump through endless hoops to obtain and build source code (which by the way might not even be obtainable OR buildable). if i have a binary from 5, 10, 15 years ago i should just be able to fucking run it on my fucking computer.
johnea 4/3/2025||
Then run your "fuzzy kitty plays on your desktop" binary executable, downloaded from we-swear-we-wont-hack-you.com, and live with the consequences.

In fact this is the way 3rd party windoze executables are typically distributed.

Nobody's stopping you...

p.s. The above seems like a trolling reply, but I always play the straight man...

int_19h 3/30/2025|||
> At least in a typical linux distro the binary is built by the distributing org

... which often patches upstream code in ways that upstream neither approves of nor wants to support. And then, when things break, the user can't go upstream, and the distro package maintainers simply don't have enough time to deal with all the user reports.

vagab0nd 3/30/2025|||
Exactly this. In fact, what's a distro if not basically a well-maintained app directory?
DeathArrow 3/30/2025|||
>People who want the broken Windows software model can just..run Windows

That's what billions of people do. :)

trelane 3/30/2025||
There's also flatpak and friends
olddustytrail 3/29/2025||
> Thesis: We should create a distro of Linux that runs Windows binaries by default via Wine.

"We should"? Do you mean me? I have a ton of my own projects I'm busy with.

Why didn't you say "I should create..."? There's nothing stopping you implementing this if you think it's a good idea. Do the work yourself.

stevage 3/29/2025|
That is the weirdest thing to take exception to.
magackame 3/30/2025|
What's up with all this "My 20 year old software still works!!!". Who actually runs unmaintained abandonware? I would rather prefer OS devs not wasting time maintaining legacy cruft and evolve with the times.
flohofwoe 3/30/2025||
Sid Meier's Railroad Tycoon 2 is still the best railroad game and runs great on modern Windows versions, it's now nearly 30 years old:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/7620/Railroad_Tycoon_II_P...

I return to that game for a few quick sessions every couple of months.

timewizard 3/30/2025|||
> Who actually runs unmaintained abandonware?

Personal computers are for persons. They don't view their use of their own systems through the lens of an imputed purity test.

> I would rather prefer OS devs not wasting time maintaining legacy cruft and evolve with the times.

Then don't support those who do with your dollars. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if the market shows it disagrees with you.

p_ing 3/30/2025|||
I play Silent Hunter III which was released in 2005. Also Half-Life sometimes. Everything older is going to be console games.

Businesses run the old stuff.

zdragnar 3/30/2025|||
Is this sarcasm? Some of my favorite games are 20 years old. Windows is popular in a lot of manufacturing spaces because the equipment software doesn't get updated and only connects to old programs over 16 bit serial ports.

There's a whole world out there of legacy software that is happily churning along, and doesn't need to be updated.

tormeh 3/30/2025||
Okay, but then you could also keep it running on an old OS. Fork out the money for a RHEL license, and just never upgrade.
Dylan16807 3/30/2025||
But I don't want to run a separate machine with 15, 20, 25 year old hardware to keep that OS working.
tobinfekkes 3/30/2025|||
I still play Total Annihilation, from 1997.

Great game.

Saris 3/30/2025|||
Lots of embedded stuff will have control software that's very old.
tormeh 3/30/2025||
People object to this approach, but Apple does this, and they seem to be doing fine.