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Posted by ilikepi 3/31/2025

It’s not mold, it’s calcium lactate (2018)(www.thephcheese.com)
409 points | 224 comments
Tade0 3/31/2025|
I spent a couple of months in Switzerland for a project and supermarkets there often have this booth that me and my friends referred to as the "Kingdom of Cheese".

The Kingdom of Cheese is a climate-controlled enclave with just cheese - the person there is happy to help you decide because they know you'll be back eventually as indeed the products there have those crystals.

EA-3167 3/31/2025||
Back eventually? I'd personally set up a little tent in the foyer and live there year 'round, like an increasingly portly mouse.
throwaway889900 4/1/2025|||
At that point just call it Redwall Abbey!
Tade0 4/1/2025|||
I would do the same, but that is a particularly expensive diet.
derelicta 4/1/2025|||
Oh my! I do miss these kingdoms of cheese myself! No offence to the British but they don't know what good cheese is :p
ndsipa_pomu 4/1/2025||
That's fighting talk round my way!

I submit to you that you've not tried the good British cheeses such as a Baron Bigod (Norfolk Brie), a nettle covered Cornish Yarg, the well-named Stinking Bishop, the rolled-in-ashes Kidderton Ash, Yoredale, Yarlington, Stilton, Beauvale, Gorwydd Caerphilly, Driftwood, Pevensey Blue, Witheridge in Hay, Ailsa Craig ...

neuroticnews25 4/1/2025|||
This comment reminds me of Monty Python cheese shop sketch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz1JWzyvv8A

a_c 4/1/2025|||
I'm saving this comment just so I know what cheese to try next time
helpfulContrib 4/1/2025||
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WillPostForFood 3/31/2025||
I’ve always loved the crunch in a good Gouda, and it’s really fun to read some details about tyrosine crystals that cause it.
jinushaun 3/31/2025|
Like adding acid to fake sourdough…
geetee 3/31/2025||
How long until cheese makers start adding the crunchy crystals to give the appearance of quality without the actual quality?
IneffablePigeon 3/31/2025||
This happens already, at least it does in the UK. Most cheaper brands of “extra mature” supermarket cheddar have added crystals. I don’t actually mind that much - I do think it is a genuinely slightly more enjoyable product with the crystals.
jb1991 3/31/2025|||
There are also fake ways of accelerating aging to create this effect, like the Old Amsterdam cheeses you’ll find in the Netherlands. That particular brand has a lot of fake qualities to it that creates these effects.
facile3232 3/31/2025||
Is "fake" really the right word here if people get the flavor, nutrition, and texture they want? I don't really give a damn if they figured out a way to bypass aging to achieve this.
SyzygyRhythm 3/31/2025|||
The article says that the crystals don't affect the taste or scent. The crystals are a signal that you have a good cheese, but not the cause of a good cheese. Adding them to a bad cheese won't make it a good cheese, so in that sense I'd call it a fake.

There is some gray area in that they affect the texture, which is a part of the whole experience. But that's again mostly signaling--we like the crunch because we associate it with good cheeses, not because there's anything inherently better about it.

There are some interesting philosophical questions here. If you put a fake label on some wine, and people perceive it as higher quality than it is, is it really fake? On one hand, obviously yes. And yet there was a real effect on the perceived quality.

facile3232 3/31/2025||
> The article says that the crystals don't affect the taste or scent.

That seems hard to believe, frankly.

zidad 3/31/2025||||
Fake as in, they're not allowed to call it "old cheese" because it's a protected term for cheese of a minimum age. But it might even be preferred by some because the texture is still a bit softer. I like it, but as with a good single malt, I wouldn't pay the same price if it's artificially aged.
Doxin 4/1/2025|||
You can taste the difference between "naturally" aged cheese and "synthetically" aged cheese. In general the natural stuff has a more complex flavor the older it gets, where the synthetic stuff mostly just tastes more salty the "older" it gets.

The synthetically aged stuff is still plenty delicious but when naturally aged cheese isn't really more expensive (just harder to find) I fail to see the point.

geetee 3/31/2025|||
Is this something they disclose on the packaging? I'm curious how to identify this in the cheese I buy.
borski 3/31/2025||
Aside from cheddar (or similar), the crystals are always inside the cheese, so the appearance is nearly the same as those without the crystals.
geetee 3/31/2025||
Sure, replace "appearance" with "impression" for a more accurate representation of my intent.
borski 3/31/2025||
Fair enough! I just meant they’d have to stick it on the label or something, since you wouldn’t be to able to obviously tell the difference just by looking at it, that’s all.
borski 3/31/2025||
Visited Gouda in the Netherlands and learned this. Best cheese I’ve ever had.
jajko 3/31/2025||
Old aged gouda is the best cheese I ever laid on my tongue. We live in Switzerland next to French border, so there is no end to universe of fine aged original Gruyeres, Beaufort or even Cheddar (but that one probably worse than what one can get in UK), plus all AOC Italian ones. Simply hard cheeses with grain, there are hundreds to choose from.

I love them all, but that gouda taste is something else to me and my wife. French shops just around the border luckily import some of it, I never saw it in Switzerland shops.

One way to upmark any cheese for us to put ie black truffles or wild black garlic in it.

Talking about gouda, gotta get me some slices before kids munch it all again.

clmul 3/31/2025|||
People in the Netherlands are usually not at all proud of their cuisine, but the cheese is definitely a nice aspect (as someone who eats the >1 year ripened stuff almost daily)

Although for me some of the French cheeses are the best. Just what you're used to I guess :D

twic 4/1/2025||||
Have you tried Mimolette? It has a similar character to those very old Goudas.
decimalenough 4/1/2025||
But the crunchy bits on the outside are cheese mites, not crystals. (Seriously.)
goosejuice 3/31/2025||||
L'amuse will blow the mind. One of the best cheeses out there and I've had hundreds.

Chällerhocker is another great one in your neck of the woods.

genewitch 3/31/2025|||
I've had most Dutch cheeses, and my personal favorite is smeerkaas, in the little gold cups.
goosejuice 4/1/2025|||
Meant to say specifically Wilde Weide. L'amuse sells good cheese in general though.

https://boerderijdeeenzaamheid.nl/

borski 3/31/2025|||
Same, tbh. I love cheese. But that aged Gouda is absolutely memorable. I can literally taste it now haha
dfxm12 3/31/2025|||
I think when someone thinks of the Platonic ideal orange cheese, they taste aged gouda on their tongue.
kirtakat 3/31/2025||
It's funny how as soon as I read to Netherlands, my brain back-tracked to correct me on the pronunciation.

If anyone else is ever in the Netherlands and has a chance, due the tour in Gouda, it's delightful and you get to try a bunch of gouda cheese!

borski 4/1/2025|||
I hate that I can’t say the word without saying it right, but that means that everyone else thinks I’m saying it wrong. Haha

Agreed btw, the tour in Gouda is wonderful. Show up for the morning when they have the cheese market; it’s a really fun time.

dkdbejwi383 4/1/2025||
one of my pet peeves is "Gouda" puns that rely on it being pronounced like "good-er"
dledesma 4/1/2025||
It's a shame more people aren't taught gouda pronounce it.
emmelaich 4/1/2025|||
It's Ghowda right? The gh like in argh and the ow in brown.
vanviegen 4/1/2025|||
Yes somewhat, but try to keep the 'h' to a minimum and extend the 'g' like you're gargling. :-)
lionkor 4/1/2025||||
Yes!
wussboy 4/1/2025|||
Say it. Say "chowda"
dekhn 3/31/2025||
Cheese crystals are umami. Many of them are glutamate crystals. I am curious if the other amino crystals have a similar flavor profile.
jsbg 3/31/2025||
In the sense that they contribute to umami taste, yes. But most commonly the nucleotides inosinate (from meat and fish) and guanylate (from dried mushrooms) are the other molecules that provide umami flavors.
facile3232 3/31/2025||
Also MSG, obviously.
sophacles 3/31/2025||
The G in MSG is glutamate, so not an "also"... as its been covered by OP.
facile3232 3/31/2025|||
Ah, I found the phrasing quite confusing.
dekhn 3/31/2025||
I'm pretty sure the MSG disassociates into the sodium ion and the glutamate, since it's soluble in water. I only use the term MSG to refer to the additive when it's in the salt form in a dry jar.

Side note: it's really funny if you think about it, umami is basically just the taste of amino acids and nucleic acids, which presumably makes sense since the body uses them so much (beyond just making protein and DNA/RNA).

rbrownmh 3/31/2025||
The umami flavor of cheese, especially hard cheeses, is incredibly under appreciated. And I'll never understand the popularity of pre-shredded cheese...
dekhn 3/31/2025|||
Umami is a lot more present that people recognize. I've built up an intuition for this over the years, and also sort of trained my tongue.

What we call umami is a subjective experience that has an underlying molecular cause, but it's complicated: more than one molecule contributes to the sensation, different foods have different molecules, many people can't recognize it on its own, etc.

The most easily recognized umami tastes seem to come from hydrolyzed soy protein and yeast extracts- both are added to tons of food. The canonical example is Doritos, which are a masterpiece of modern food industrial optimization. Doritos are mostly corn, but they also add whey (cheese derived umami), MSG (molecular, isolated glutamate in salt form), buttermilk (multiple flavors including umami), romano cheese (more umami!), tomato powder (umami), inositate (umami). It's basically an umami bomb.

From what I can tell, the best umami flavors come from a combination of several different molecules combined with some salt. the combination seems to potentiate the flavor significantly. You can also saturate out your receptors- if you drink a highly concentrated broth, you'll see there's some upper limit to the amount of umami you can taste and after that, additional aminos are just wasted.

Cthulhu_ 3/31/2025||||
> I'll never understand the popularity of pre-shredded cheese...

If spending too much time in eve online taught me anything, it's that convenience is worth money. People are inherently lazy, and there's plenty of ways to exploit that.

The next level of pre-grated cheese is frozen pizza, for example.

Lutger 4/1/2025||
Its not laziness, its just a matter of priority. Like playing eve online, or doing nothing.

But really, there is what feels like an ever increasing list of 'stuff to do, things to attend', and preparing food (and sleep) are obvious time sinks to reduce, and of course people are willing and increasingly able to pay.

A recent survey (forget the link, sorry), listed time spend on food preparation / cooking nowadays as averaging out on just 28 minutes daily. Around 1980, this was still around 2.5 hours. I believe context is UK.

I easily spend 3 hours daily, because especially with a little kid I just think it is important to do, but I do also feel the weight of it.

frereubu 3/31/2025|||
Me either, but a relative who worked in processed foods told me the reason it exists isn't just lazy consumers, it's made from the oddly-shaped (by supermarket standards) offcuts that they can't sell otherwise.
7speter 3/31/2025||
Was proud I planned out buying a couple of pounds of cheddar from the supermarket and keeping it in our spare fridge for a year and had aged cheddar for Thanksgiving baked mac and cheese last November.
floren 3/31/2025||
If you're ever in Pullman, Washington, stop in at the WSU dairy store and get a few cans of Cougar Gold cheddar. Cheese in a can sounds weird, but it's delicious, made by the students, and it ages really well -- I've got some cans in my fridge which are coming up on a decade old now. It's kind of a waste to use an aged can for mac and cheese, but I used part of a younger can for mac & cheese and it came out beautifully.
psunavy03 3/31/2025||
As a Penn State grad I feel like WSU and PSU need to have a creamery-off for charity or something.
globular-toast 4/1/2025||
Whenever I keep mild or medium cheddar too long it goes "mature" before long, but it doesn't taste good. French cheese, on the other hand, matures (affines) quite nicely at home.
shrubble 3/31/2025||
Costco sells the Coastal cheddar which has a lot of this kind of crystals.
stevenwoo 3/31/2025|
The Kirkland blocks of sharp cheddar can also have these on the outside.
NikkiA 4/1/2025||
This thread makes me realise I must be the only person on earth that detests the taste of the crystals.
crossroadsguy 4/1/2025|
And that I am the person who discards it trying not to hold with bare fingers whenever anything starts growing on any food item including cheese (which is a rare usage thing for me anyway; or maybe in my region; we use different kinds of cheese though, mostly consumed fresh).
niemandhier 3/31/2025||
Obligatory reference to the excellent book: The Science of Cheese by Michael H. Tunick.

This book is an in depth scientific introduction to, exactly, cheese. A great read, you can feel the passion the man has for his work!

stevenwoo 3/31/2025|
I'm now kind of upset at myself that I have thrown out perfectly good Cheddar in the past due to white spots.
coldpie 3/31/2025||
For firm & hard cheeses, the bad molds very rarely penetrate the surface. If you get some questionable looking mold on the outer surface, you can cut off the outer couple of mm and enjoy the remainder just fine. For rustic/home made cheeses, handling the "bad" mold on the outer surface is a normal part of the aging process before it makes it to the customer anyway. https://cheesemaking.com/blogs/learn/how-to-bandaging-chedda...
zahlman 4/1/2025||
The USDA says to cut off at least an inch and be careful not to cut through mold: https://www.fsis.usda.gov/food-safety/safe-food-handling-and...
ahartmetz 3/31/2025|||
Also, if you get bright white(!) spots on cheese like Brie (which is made with white fungus), it's usually just the cheese "reactivating". You - theoretically - don't even need to cut off anything.
GuB-42 3/31/2025|||
I remember having a brie-like cheese cut in half and left forgotten in the fridge for more than a month. The mold had reformed completely, as if it they were made like this in the first place.

It tasted fine, no one got sick. Kind of underwhelming to be honest, but it wasn't particularly tasty to begin with: industrial cheese, pasteurized milk. It fact, that it still had some life in it surprised me.

ahartmetz 3/31/2025||
Fun! I've never let it come that far. Was it somehow fuzzy or really like the firm, white skin that it has when you buy it?
kjkjadksj 3/31/2025|||
I’ve eaten brie weeks after sell by date. It just turns into a firmer cheese by then no striking difference in taste really.
ahartmetz 3/31/2025|||
Yeah, not much seems to happen to Brie - it stays fairly mild. Unlike Camembert, which gets significantly stronger and runnier over time.
Agingcoder 3/31/2025||
It depends on the Brie - pasteurized or not, from Meaux/Melun/etc. I find Unpasteurized Brie de Melun to be very strong.
thaumasiotes 4/1/2025|||
> It just turns into a firmer cheese by then

Really? I thought it was the other way around, starting relatively firm and liquefying as it rots.

kjkjadksj 4/3/2025||
Maybe by the end. It turned into more of a gouda texture; more effort to cut vs how soft brie starts off. Maybe it was drying out.
tacitusarc 3/31/2025|||
No, that is most likely mold. Not all white spots are positive, especially if they are on old cheese in the fridge (as per the article).
stevenwoo 3/31/2025|||
It does give a method of testing at home at the end, though, with hard being crystal and soft being mold.
GuB-42 3/31/2025|||
Even if it is mold, just remove it off the surface. It doesn't penetrate far on hard cheeses like Gouda.

Also the reason why I don't buy pre-grated cheese, it doesn't age well. It also tends to be lower quality to begin with.

sphars 3/31/2025||
I actually did this yesterday to a block of cheese and now I regret it
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