Posted by Fred34 1 day ago
ThinkPads are durable but every day they get older, slower and more difficult to source parts for as collectors entrench themselves and the requirements of operating systems (and the "modern web") worsen
Framework laptops are wonderful, modern and (arguably?) cheaper to own in the long-term thanks to being able to replace components, particularly the entire mainboard as time progresses.
*But* they're a tiny boutique manufacturer. Their barrier to entry is that of a pretty hefty modern laptop, versus buying a T420 for practically pennies and performing all kinds of aftermarket "mods" to it. 51nb's "FrankenPads" especially breathe incredible new life into old IBM and Lenovo stock.
Combine this with the fact that being the "defacto business laptop" for nearly three decades (along with perhaps Dell) means there's enough Thinkpads on Earth to probably stretch end-to-end around the moon and back
LD, average distance between Earth and Moon = 384,399,000 m [1]
C = circumference of moon = 10,917,000 m
R := approximate round trip distance = 2LD + 0.5*C = 774,256,500 m
n = total number of thinkpads on earth <= total number of thinkpads ever manufactured = 250 million [2][2a][2b]
W = width of thinkpad = 0.3366 m [3]
T = total thinkpad distance = n * W <= 84,150,000 m
This is with the optimistic assumption that the total number of thinkpads on earth equals the total number of thinkpads ever manufactured. A more conservative estimate might be something like n = total number of thinkpads manufactured each year * mean lifespan of a thinkpad = (12 million thinkpads / year) * (5 years lifespan) = 60 million thinkpads in good working order for a lunar round trip.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_distance
[2] IBM sold 25m thinkpads before selling product line to Lenovo. By 2022, Lenovo had sold 200m thinkpads. With linear extrapolation to 2024 that gives approx 250 million thinkpads manufactured.
[2a] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad
[2b] https://www.forbes.com/sites/timbajarin/2022/10/05/celebrating-thinkpads-30th-anniversaryan-insiders-perspective/
[3] assume every thinkpad is a T480. https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_T480/ThinkPad_T480_Spec.PDFBut yeah, it would not be a good thing, according to the movie at least.
The collective electromagnetic resonance of their legendary keyboards creates a subtle gravitational anomaly that could, over approx. 17.3 years, reduce the lunar orbit by up to 4% (!), according to my rigorous calculations and simulations.
My recent paper[1] on "Retrotech Gravitational Manipulation" was mysteriously rejected by mainstream journals, likely due to Big Space's vested interest in maintaining the status quo; the current Earth-Moon distances for profit reasons.
Have you came across my paper, considering you have heard about Olaf?
[1] https://arvix.org/abs/2108.05779v3 ("Retrotech Gravitational Manipulation: Theoretical Applications of Legacy Computing Hardware on Celestial Body Dynamics")
Edit: Ugh, the site seems to be down at this moment, typical HN hug of death. Sorry about that. Forgot to archive! My rookie mistake. :/
if opened and touching corner-to-corner (~0.574m), will add ~ 71% to effective area.
[0] https://www.lenovo.com/content/dam/lenovo/pcsd/north-america...
At ~10.9 lbs + 2.2 lbs for the charger, it was not terribly practical to travel with, so it ended up effectively as a desktop in the office.
It now sits in my closet, and periodically I turn it on. The dual screen was a bit too small to do much with, but it was great for notepad or a chat window. Being a 32 bit system limited to 4 GB of RAM, it's not terribly useful today.
I say this as somebody the regularly uses laptops as old as 2009 (like, I will spend most of today on one). A lot of real-world, everyday computing barely taxes modern hardware on a decent OS like Linux. Old hardware will let you do a lot more than people think.
I think it’s time for either Framework or a third party partner to sell a new chassis that’s compatible with the FW13’s mainboard, but focuses on a more sturdy, premium feel, even if that means doing away with the modular port cards. I suspect that mainboards housed in such a chassis will fare better over time than their original housing counterparts.
The Cortex A53 on the original MNT Reform is even worse.
Then again, if you're mostly just editing text and doing some light web surfing, I suppose it's fast enough.
I use one as my main laptop outside work and that's pretty much how I feel about it, yeah.
32 GB of RAM is nice too :)
Or laptops get so uncommon that manufacturers have to band together and agree on standards.
I made the mistake of packing my MacBook (at the time an M1 model), my Framework, and my iPad Pro 12.9 (with keyboard case) in a single laptop bag for a work trip a while back. The Framework got bent around the power button in a way that made the button get jammed; I bought a new input cover for ~$100 and replaced it in five minutes. My iPad's keyboard case now has keys that occasionally get stuck, so I'll probably replace that at some point. My MacBook seemed fine at the time, but it developed an intermittent trackpad button jam that could have been caused by that (or maybe a piece of dust).
I did have a Macbook trackpad fail in a similar way, where the "button" seemed to intermittently fail to click. It turned out my battery was swelling (see /r/spicypillows) and this impacted the trackpad operation.
On topic, I took the Macbook with swollen battery in to the Apple Store and they had to replace the entire keyboard+battery assembly as a unit because the battery was not replaceable.
The problem with this machine is that sooner or later I'll run out of reasonably priced keyboards (they wear and the mechanisms under the most used keys break), maybe no more support for the graphic card neither from Nvidia nor from the open source driver, and go forbids if some RAM burns. Perhaps RAM from that age it still available but historically the prices hike when only a few desperate people look for it and have to pay a premium.
So eventually I'll have to buy a new laptop because of maintenance: hardware parts and software updates. I'm betting on another 2 or 3 years. There is nothing I particularly like on the market now but this laptop was a compromise too. Serviceability and 3 buttons on the touchpad vs a useless number pad that shifts the center of the keyboard to the left of the screen.
Maybe they should think about a FrameTough line.
Not clear to me if you mean always or that it changed. Do suggest to check the thermal paste, plus clear out dust in fans and heatsink fins.
The 4th gen almost never kicked its fans on, especially in Linux. The new one gets far hotter, even at idle. Lenovo removed the traditional sleep mode in favor of modern sleep, which causes it to die with the lid closed in a couple days compared to over a week with the 4th gen.
Larger port module plates that bolt into the sides of the chassis with a few screws would be just as good from a longevity standpoint, would enable better rigidity, and would allow the FW13 to host a considerably higher number of ports.
A screw or two definitely wouldn't have impeded the handful of times I've moved my 16's parts around, not even in the slightest, it's just not that frequent. And I don't usually carry other kinds of ports + wouldn't be able to have the screwdriver too, it's usually "I have them all" or "I have none" and then all I can realistically do is swap sides. I'd have zero complaints with some standard screws.
... but tool-less lowers the barrier to literally zero, which is pretty big when you need it. It's a very different mental-space: absolutely zero concern.
... and if they were smaller, they'd be incompatible, and it'd be harder to build custom ones due to even less internal space.
i bought maybe 5 differnet thinkpads over the years and never had an issue with the old charging port. with the last usb-c thinkpad i got i had to buy 2 new chargers and both of those i repaired a few times as well. the connector just wiggles around too much and the cables are also too rigid so when it gets snagged on something the connector ends up bending in the port before the cable bends.
in the end i just got rid of it before the actual port on the motherboard got completely damaged
Also on that I think they should do away with the modular port things anyway. They're a suboptimial use of space and limit the total number of ports you can have. The real problem is that the ports on most laptops are soldered directly to the motherboard which results in extreme expense if you kill one. Just give us some replaceable ones like the current MacBook line. They're on an easy to remove daughterboard and purchaseable online.
Rigidity is only for the main body, not the screen part.
For context, that's what I'm talking about with the kind of patterns when it happens: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254769961?sortBy=rank
> packing it in tightly with books
Which is basically equivalent to "putting it in a backpack" to me. I brought my last one in a lot of places, putting it with an iPad in the laptop compartment, the iPad was fine, the MacBook screen wasn't. For comparison I have an Asus X13 now, same use case (the iPad became a Surface Pro) for the same one year+ period now, and the screen is still perfect.
It's akin to asking if you prefer to lose your right or left arm.
Apple would get out of that issue altogether if they gave up on the ultrathin screen. Again, the iPad doesn't have this issue for instance.
Does anyone have experience if the issue been resolved in more recent designs, or is this something Apple users are now expected to live with?
Personally I moved away from macs, so choosing a laptop with a touch screen was the best option: screens are tough enough, won't scratch under most circumstances, and can be wiped with anything short of diamond dust.
Otherwise they'd better lay off the drugs that generated that thinness fetish and make sturdy devices again.
(Note that i don't see any button traces on my m3 mbpro yet. it's close to a year old. And I'm not the kind that keeps the tv remote in the plastic bag that it was delivered in, probably the opposite.)
Reminds me of that iPhone model where they issued guidance on how to hold it because people lost signal during calls.
I have a few Thinkpad X260s which can be got on eBay for $100US. Drop in a fresh SSD and stick of 16gb memory for another $100US and you have a very capable little machine for common, daily use that suits all my needs more than adequately. If one gets damaged, I am not out too much money. I've been using two for about 4 years now, one as my daily driver at home and one that goes on the road with me. I have not needed to further upgrade either one beyond what I did initially when buying* them. So, with that in mind, I think use-case has a lot to do with whether or not someone can get away with running the more disposable cheap-but-good Thinkpad like I do.
But >$800US for a Framework 13 that bends like a reed in the wind is not a smart choice for me. I really like their ethos of modularity, too, but there's just no way I'm hitting that cost anytime soon.
*Note on buying Thinkpad from eBay: yes, collectors have ruined the price of some models, but not all. Lots of the X Series models are still very cheap, but please do not support sellers who are offering cheap laptops without a battery and power cable. Be patient and dig, you'll find the ones who are selling you a complete, useable machine for cheap. Unfortunately, eBay is flooded with a lot of vulture tech resellers that part perfectly good batteries from devices so they can make more money selling you both separately.
People talking about old Lenovos being good quality are often talking about in the pre-IBM days which is far more likely to be nostalgia at this point.
Meanwhile my T420 still runs like on day one (which was already 5 years old when I got it, and travelled 1+ years with me in a backpack), the screen works in direct sunlight and it's not even the best of its series, hardware still perfect. Fat SSD + 32GB Ram and you can barely tell how old it is.
Meanwhile, my T410 works great as a workbench computer.
I’ve wanted to get a T480 for a while now (mainly to do a T25 frankenpad [1] – seems like a nice project), but if it really has those issues with the USB-C ports, I think I’ll pass :-(
https://www.pcworld.com/article/2307079/dont-buy-these-dange...
In this case I was referring to post-T480 ThinkPads which have soldered memory, and no longer have hot-swappable batteries or on-board Ethernet.
They're still pretty easy to find replacements for when they go bad.
I still have and regularly use a fully functional X200, somewhere in the box I have a fully functional T42 and an R31 whose only defect is a small screen blemish caused by me closing the lid with something on the keyboard.
But my multiple X1 Gen1 and Gen2 all have various failures (screen, battery, webcam, or keyboard), my T450 has big battery issues, my T470s have screen/GPU and battery issues. T490 is fine for now, X1 Gen11 has crappy battery and is overheating from the get go. These are different generations, different lots and still affected by the same constant issues.
At least a lot of modern ThinkPads are still modular. Recently got a 5th gen T14 AMD. Memory, NVMe SSD, WWAN modem, battery, and a bunch of other components are really easy to replace. I think I prefer the keyboard over my MBP, it feels less harsh.
Also the Fn key is where the Ctrl key should be, which is endlessly annoying as a user of different laptop brands.
There's always been a bios option to swap them. It's on my x230, and probably exists on older PCs as well.
> The Fn key first debuted on the monochrome display ThinkPad 300 in October of 1992. Yes there was a ThinkPad with a monochrome display. The Fn key circa 1992 was placed exactly as it is today. Interestingly enough, Apple uses the same positions for their Fn and Ctrl keys as ThinkPad. Every other notebook personal computer manufacturer that I know of has the Fn and Ctrl key positions swapped. Some would say backwards.
https://web.archive.org/web/20110130203223/https://www.lenov...
By contrast, I know someone who got a T480 second hand and it lasted six months. My guess is the 2012 era was when the change happened
Among a few: The keyboard switch from the old 7-row (whose pinnacle was at the x220/T420 era with double-height esc and del) to the new 6-row (with later ever decreasing key travel) to the current x9 (which is basically just a yoga keyboard with no trackpoint, no key grouping, and the loss of pgup/pgdn). Things like the modular battery options vanished. The case got flimsier over time with e.g. the magnesium rollcage first vanishing from the display, then from the base. (And no - from enterprise experience - the carbon fiber composite isn't generally "as good or better", esp. for failure modes like punctual force on the display. Or...grabbing the laptop by the display and using it to fan your BBQ, which doesn't faze my old X41 :) ).
I think xx30-series has such a good reputation because you could use a T420 keyboard (with a tiny modification to better fit the chassis and not short out the backlight pin).
With that said, I do wish the keyboard on my Framework 13 were better. It would be a wonderful to have a ThinkPad-quality keyboard, I have a ThinkPad T430 and its keyboard is one of the best chiclet-style keyboards I’ve ever used. I also like the keyboard on my old aluminum PowerBook G4, as well as the keyboard on my work-issued M3 MacBook Pro. What would be a dream, though, would be if there’s some way to fit a mechanical keyboard into a laptop.
Exactly this. I've given up hope to expect an old-school TP keyboard with its ridged concave keys providing perfect tactile feedback even when not depressing a key, but there's basically no standard laptop layout out there anymore optimized for efficient touch typing, with existing consistently grouped and offset(!) off-center key groups (4-group f-keys, pgup/pgdn/home/end cluster, arrow keys). And some key travel to go with tactile scissor keys to reduce bottoming-out would be nice.
(Oh, and why I find the "tactile feedback" so important, see the wonderful "Pictures Under Glass" rant.
https://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDes...
Not directly related to keyboards, but the premise remains the same. Hands feel things. :) )
I will say, it has weirded me out that they have been so cagey about the pricing in particular, which AFAICT, is the only thing not public about the laptop before the pre order date
I hate Framework laptops' design. They went to the extreme of repairability but only as a marketing tool, while the products are still e-waste trash.
I looked at Framework 13 laptop as a replacement for my X60 Tablet. Let me do a comparison between them:
- FW13 battery swap needs dissasembly. Can't do it while on a train/bus/airplane.
- X60 battery is removed by 2 spring latches on the back
- FW13 has 2 internal expansion ports (M.2, I think), both permanently occupied by storage and wifi
- X60 has 2 internal expansion ports (miniPCIe): one is occupied by wifi, one is for WWAN (optional). Storage is in a separate SATA bay.
- FW13 has no external expansion slots, except if you count USB as expansion
- X60 has 1 external expansion (PCMCIA/Cardbus type 2) - far more robust than USB-C, and the metal case provides cooling
- FW13 has 4 USB-C ports, one is permanently occupied by the power cable
- X60 has 3 USB-A ports (far more robust than USB-C), while charging is a separate barrel plug (also far more robust than USB-C)
- FW13 has no video output, except as a USB adapter
- X60 has VGA-out directly from the GPU
- FW13 has no audio outputs, except as USB sound card
- X60 has preamplified headphone-out and mic-in (also has internal microphone)
- FW13 has video camera
- X60 does not
- FW13 has stereo speakers
- X60 has a single mono speaker
- FW13 has no ethernet, except as a USB adapter
- X60 has gigabit ethernet
Other things X60T has, but FW13 doesn't:
- Touchscreen with pen, some models work with finger too, some don't
- great keyboard and also some extra hardware buttons such as volume, instead of key combinations
- Fingerprint reader
- SD card slot
- Firewire
- IR port, fax/modem (not much use these days)
- An attachable dock (not wired like current USB docks) that can house a CD/DVD drive, or another HDD/SDD, or extra battery and has another 2 USB ports, RS232 and parallel port.
- There's also an external battery module that directly connects to the docking port.
So, yes, framework laptops are repaireable, but they're so crippled, there isn't much left in them to repair.
Yep on battery - I rarely use mine while traveling (and rarely travel) and set max charge to 60% so it should last a good long time, but it can be replaced when I need too. I replaced 2 in my black Macbook and once in my iPhone 3G (but I got 8 years out of the phone). When my work MB Pro had a battery bulge, the whole machine was replaced and presumably recycled since it was not repairable.
Internal, yep, but nvme > SATA any day.
They are usb-c yes, but the ports are adjustable (can mix usb-c, usb-a, display-port, hdmi, network, storage, etc) so it's not as restrictive as you seem to be implying.
On video, I am not sure if you think it's some kind of DisplayLink thing but it's alt-dp over usb, directly connected to the GPU.
My 13" has a headphone jack (and passable speakers) and a built in Mic (and both the camera and mic have switches to disable them).
2.5GB Ethernet is available as an expansion module.
I find the keyboard and touch pad okay! I don't really need a touchscreen.
On ports: I don't use the finger print reader (but it has one). I don't need SD card slot all that often (but is available). I don't have any FW devices (and 400Mbs vs 5-10Gbps). Don't need a modem or an IR Port
I don't use a dock (I do at work for my MB Pro - but it's mostly a permanent desktop configuration so I don't mind that it's connected via usb-c). The one I got IS compatible with my Framework 13 though.
I had a t61 for work and I loved it... in 2009 . I should have bought it from the company when I left but bought a black Macbook instead
- FW13 has no video output, except as a USB adapter
- FW13 has no audio outputs, except as USB sound card
Other things X60T has, but FW13 doesn't:
- Fingerprint reader
- SD card slot
Also, unless something has changed or I am misinterpreting what they are saying, the fw13 does have an audio output that is not an expansion card.
Community forum posts from 2021 suggest they sort of forgot to include this information initially.
It so happens that the audio jack in my previous laptop started getting loose after four years, which was a first, as usually it was the USB ports which would go, so having it as an expansion card was a major selling point for me.
This really is a device for people who tend to break things despite relatively light usage. I for one damaged the screen in every single laptop that I had.
So, does it really have a headphones jack or not?
My X60T headphones jack only recently started to cause troubles after many many years of use, but it was an easy fix: drill 3 tiny holes in the connector casing and push a needle through each one to bend the contacts tighter.
Anyway, I'd rather just disassemble the expansion card and solder in a new port should this ever come to pass, as it's just a question of undoing two screws:
https://community.frame.work/t/whats-inside-the-audio-expans...
My mistake.
> That was a conscious design decision, as you're supposed to use swappable expansion cards.
> - SD card slot
Like I said. The laptop itself is very basic (crippleware by Lenovo standards). You have to use USB ports for everything, there are only 3 usable, and also mechanically very weak, not to mention performance, heat inside a closed plastic case, cost, etc.
I keep telling myself I should try an X230T and Linux --- if there was a Framework device which supported Wacom EMR, I wouldn't have to. That said, my next major tech purchase is an rPi 5 and a Wacom Movink 13.
> X60 battery is removed by 2 spring latches on the back
Yeah but the FW13 battery also lasts several times more than the battery life you get out of swapping two or three X60 batteries on the train.
Also, VGA out is useless in this day and age and USB-C is not only robust but also way faster and more capable.
Also iirc there are projects that make Motherboard that fit in old thinkpad chassis. It has very impressive spec: 8 core Zen3 AMD cpu and 32gb ram. Some M2 slot etc.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad_25th_anniversary_edit...
Still trucking after 7 years though. But I can’t upgrade it to Win 11 lol
> But I can’t upgrade it to Win 11 lol
Nothing of value has been lost :^) (But if you really need Win 11, there are workarounds)
Had to use Scroll Lock just yesterday. Which, well, I can't on my x13 :-(
I’m really rooting for Framework over the next decade to really establish themselves and hopefully affect some change in laptop repairability. And hell, even if they don’t, hopefully they’ll be around so I can continue to be a customer.
I've been trying to rationalise why that's the case for years - whether it's the keyboard, the trackpoint, its ability to survive my casual brutality, some nostalgic emotional/romantic aspect, etc., but recently I've kinda Stopped Worrying and just unapologetically embraced it. I've been wandering around kubecon with it for the last couple of days and getting 9-10 hours per battery and it hasn't skipped a beat.
For anyone interested, there's a new project in town, the X210Ai [1]. I can't vouch for anything yet as I've not pulled the trigger myself, but I've been in touch with the vendor via whatsapp for the last couple of months, and they're legit enthusiasts.
[0]: https://postimg.cc/Ty7PyKRx [1]: https://www.tpart.net/about-x210ai/
Are you listening, Nirav?
(Yes, I know it would make the laptop slightly thicker and heavier. But I just said I'm using a W520, and happy with it...)
Still, it's not a complete nonstarter for me, because the 16 does have that optional keypad. I could actually start using the numlock key again.
All those off-center keys have been grouped, offset and/or specially shaped since ages for a reason - to immediately and unambiguously settle your fingers there with minimal error when you have to move you hand away from the homerow anyway.
And thus, I have everything from a 14 year old t420s to my trusty t25 anniversary edition, and then a few workhorses with 8th gen Intels (x13 yoga, x1 carbon, t580) as personal and family laptops.
I suppose I could see a secondhand market for used mainboards and other parts.
Also, at least among the people I work with and talk to, many are dropping their MacBooks for a ThinkPad, because they are migrating from macOS to Linux as Apple becomes increasingly restrictive and running Linux is just becoming the easier option.
Framework is approaching the point where there is now a choice, Framework or ThinkPads. It's just that I can still get a really good used ThinkPad for like half or a third of the price.
Something that I find particularly annoying are persistent issues with noisy cooling systems. Some models are great, but others have poorly thought fans and overly aggressive firmware. Software fixes can only remedy part of the problem. I wish they stayed closer to their original ethos of high-quality utilitarian computers.
Something like the 25th and 30th Anniversary Editions should be in their main stock product line, i.e. stop messing with keyboards please. The original was fine.
Me, as a 250ish lb giant, have stepped on one multiple times without so much as a creak. Granted, it was on accident each time and I'm sure perfect heel placement could have done the job if I tried.
Even so, can Framework do the same? Can anyone else making laptops today?
Indeed, old thinkpads were designed to survive a coffee spill on the keyboard and they did, and various drops (with spinning rust as storage and cfl backed screens)
And when you achieve to break some part, it can be easily swapped. Oh and the documentation for that is available and very detailed.
Framework isn't the top choice for business.
IBM HMMs, or creatively named Hardware Maintenance Manuals, were written so that if all steps in the document were performed from start to end as written, the laptop would be a pile of FRUs or Field Replacement Units, so that those FRUs can be inspected, discarded, ordered, and replaced, and then the process can be done in reverse to produce a working unit.
Why - I mean I think I know why - they likely don't have enough control and/or influence over parts suppliers to be able to publicly expose those data unlike the Big Blue - but why...
0: https://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/...
Also, you don't change its motherboard, you change the mainboard (for my laptop, it's the CPU/integrated GPU + memory sockets); this is unlike changing the entire computer. Then, you can reuse the replaced mainboard as a server if you wish to.
This pales with my experience using a Macbook Air whose motherboard failed. I did have to replace the entire computer.
That is entirely false. Replacing the mainboard itself costs the same amount of money as a new laptop (an entire device). Their component prices are on their website under "Shop Parts", so you can verify that for yourself. I can buy a brand new Ryzen 7000 series laptop for the price of replacing a Ryzen 7000 series mainboard for a Framework laptop. Their laptops are also a lot more expensive than same spec branded ones from Asus, Lenovo and Dell that have better build quality and design.
I don't know where does this myth come from. The cost of replacing individual component is more expensive than replacing an entire device which people do not do because it needs repairing or often even upgrading, but because they're sick of the sight of it. You can't replace one component and extend the life of your PC another full cycle because you'll soon have to replace other components too. So when it comes to upgrading you have to consider the price of upgrading all available components to get the true cost as opposed to buying a new device.
Eventually, sooner rather than later, both RAM and SSD will come soldered on, so the only thing you will be able to replace is the battery and the screen. Both which 99% users never have to replace.
I am a Thinkpad user myself, have had them for both work and pleasure. Recently upgraded my old T14 for an X13 after reading and watching a lot of Framework reviews. It's just simply a gimmick, with a lot of quality issues, being sustained by having LTT name behind it.
I haven't been able to confirm this (I found laptop prices running at about twice the cost of the mainboard), but I wonder if you're comparing an EOL runout model from a place that can afford heavy discounts against a standard price from a smaller company. If you just need a laptop and you're not too fussy, that's definitely a fair choice. But if you're buying a laptop for ten years, you probably aren't going to settle for the unsold 16GB 512GB.
> Their laptops are also a lot more expensive than same spec branded ones from Asus, Lenovo and Dell that have better build quality and design.
I guess a Framework isn't for someone who wants a same spec Asus, Lenovo or Dell.
> Eventually, sooner rather than later, both RAM and SSD will come soldered on, so the only thing you will be able to replace is the battery and the screen.
This is 173% fud. If it happens, it's because Framework is dead and there's some different company that bought their branding and just wants to use it for market segmentation. I definitely have to rate the chances that Framework has died as one of the risks of buying them, whereas I wouldn't concern myself with the risk of System76 dying, because a typical laptop lasts well past its warranty, but the point of Framework is indeed what happens in that post-warranty period.
I'm not a huge fan of Frameworks. I left a critical review on another comment. I'm not sure at all if they fit my needs, and having recently discovered the wonder of tailscale I'm now debating if my next computer will be a Framework vs a headless desktop + a dumb laptop. So even if a Framework doesn't fit my needs, they're still the only laptop that seems to. But your criticisms don't at all seem grounded enough.
Take a look at the Framework desktop, it comes with soldered on RAM. Not because of any active decisions made by Framework, but simply because that's how that CPU ships. It literally didn't support RAM slots. I can only see this trend continuing. I don't doubt that Framework will be the last hold out in the fight against soldered on RAM and SSDs, but sooner or later if they want to keep shipping the latest CPUs, they probably won't have too much of a choice in the matter.
I would be in the market for the MB only but I think I can build a 9950 based system cheaper, but I am not running AI models locally.
But I do agree that the trend of soldered SoC-like will grow, seeing that less than 1 in 10 consumers ever upgrade a computer. Apple silicon has been out for four years and I don't really come across a lot of grumbling about their integrated components which gives me hope that it's a tenable option and we're worried about nothing.
That’s not true, you must be comparing unlike boards and machines.
a 7640 mainboard is $380 (https://frame.work/products/mainboard-amd-ryzen-7040-series?...) and a 7640 chassis (with no memory, ssd, or expansion bays) is $750 (https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-13-gen-amd/configurat...)
Another example, the ai 7 350 mainboard is $700, and a bare chassis is $1,230.
Ryzen 7840U replacement Framework mainboard £699 (currently discounted): https://frame.work/gb/en/products/mainboard-amd-ryzen-7040-s...
Thinkbook 14" Gen 7, 7735HS/16G/512G £730 - https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/configurator/cto/index.html?bun...
Ideapad Slim 3 Gen 10 14", 8840HS/24G/512G £730 - https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/configurator/cto/index.html?bun...
7840U and 8840HS are essentially the same CPU and the difference in performance between 7840U and 7735HS is minimal, few % at best. So these three are comparable. I'm sorry but for the price of a replacement mainboard I can buy a brand new whole laptop with memory, storage, screen, the everything that comes with it. Am I the only one who just doesn't get the hype behind a repairable laptop?
I have a 12th Gen 13 but I will probably wait one more generation and either get that or a discounted Strixpoint MB (since it'll be a generation back and presumably cheaper).
This is sarcasm, I hope, right? The two most consumable items in the laptop (specially for OLED screens), and you're suggesting users have no need to replace them?
Maybe standard screen definition is now good enough, RAM big enough, SSD more durable, shell more durable (although I have to say that's a disappointment with the fw) and hinges longer lasting, and maybe Framework is fighting the last war but that's the reason I went for one anyways.
This is a long run bet and if it doesn't pan out to be an amazing deal, it will still a better experience than the previous one.
It costed more than my previous laptop but no more or less what I have had to pay to maintain the previous one. If it had been a framework, it would still be my workhorse.
Future will tell
Just remind them if you see them. They'll eventually prioritize making it happen.
At every company I've worked for, tickets get promoted from the backlog if enough customers or would-be customers nag about it.
Or launch multiple lines.
Longevity is built one step at a time. Voting with dollars only helps it become an option enough and signal to other manufacturers to consider similar ways.
But I can get as many Thinkpads as I want.
They are also bulky and battery life is not great.
To upgrade it you have to buy a mainboard which is quite expensive.
I found that I am better by selling my old laptop and buying a new one.
But bulky? I have the Framework 13 and it's very well sized. Smaller and lighter than the 14" macbook pro and similar to my windows laptop.
Holy $ALL_DEITIES! I use mac laptops, but I've recently set up a WinAMDNvidia "gaming" laptop. I just closed the lid when I was done for the day, because that's what you do with macs.
In the morning there was a strong whooshing sound in my home office. Guess what, the sleeping laptop had turned its fan on. What kind of sleep mode is that that needs active cooling?
I wish someone would build a new laptop abound a ComExpress module and all the freely-open parts from a Framework laptop.
That's true for every computer. But people still buy old C64, Amiga, Atari, IBM or Apple computers.
Not in meaningful numbers.
That's biased though. As soon as a 51nb motherboard dies or has any hardware failure you're back to 2008-era level of performance.
No they're not. They have the sake kind of atrocious low-travel keyboards that almost-all (or all) other laptops these days have. And - for many of us - the most important piece of hardware in a laptop is the keyboard.
It is hard to build a legend around something like this.
MacBooks are produced in China too (as everything), but they have that "legacy" of being a cult product from U.S.A.
* USB3
* Up to 32 GB of RAM (vs max 8 GB for T400)
* M.2 slot (for SSD), 6 Gb/s SATA (vs 1.5 Gb/s on T400)
* x86-64-v3 (AVX2 etc) and OpenGL 4.6
* Dual-band AC wifi and BT4.0 (optional 4G LTE WWAN)
* DisplayPort with 4k@60Hz output
* Slightly larger screen estate (1600x900 vs 1440x900), with FHD 1080p display option
* Dramatically better battery life
* Backlit keyboard
Many of these are not merely nice to have but also ensure longevity by being compatible with lot of other modern stuff. On the other hand I do believe that T450 generation device might remain viable daily driver for a long while still. From the specs the biggest obvious shortcoming to me is the lack of USB-C, especially USB-C charging. But besides that, it seems pretty usable system.
For reference, I have old X240 that I still occasionally use.
T14 series are cheap enough used now to be considered cheap, but you lose some of the modding potential of the T480.
I swapped the barrel connector in my x220 for a third party USB-C charging port: https://www.tindie.com/products/mikepdiy/lenovo-charging-por...
That x280 is going to last me a long time. It's a perfectly capable home laptop with an i7 and 16gb of memory. I recently dropped in a new 1TB nvme drive so other than the integrated graphics, it's the best. I'm still able to play games on it, I recently got through Splinter Cell: Blacklist with the specs set at like medium. It's not going to play a modern AAA but anything at least 5 years older than the laptop runs fine enough.
The user being able to swap parts easily is _neat_ but it's just not an required feature, any more than the user of a car being able to easily hot-swap the engine. The right level of integration provides a tradeoff the maximizes reliability, cost, performance, and repair. A professional can still replace almost any component of a modern laptop, with a few thousand $ of specialized tools, and the battery, the only component with a fixed lifetime, can be easily replaced at home.
I really hope Framework can continue to develop hardware with documented repairability, without falling for the myth that tight integration and quality are mutually exclusive.
Right now, having devices which require both expertise and expensive machinery means that the cost of going to someone to repair it will increase over 10 folds, making a full replacement a financial and sound choice.
If my CPU doesn't last for 10 years but I can change it myself in minutes, I would rather that than throwing away everything else I still love and is still functional just for promised extended reliability (which is just a matter of statistics and profit margins at the end of the day).
You have to understand though that people like us are a tiny minority.
Increasingly I hate creating waste, especially e-waste, and so I'll tinker with things to get them working or upgrade them, but most people don't want the hassle.
I believe this change benefits 100% the companies imposing them, consumers always have a tech-enthusiast around to ask if needs be.
Anyone that can read and use their brain can strip a laptop down to components and reassemble it.
Armchair dipshits like to slag on Louis Rossmann, but did lead repair sessions where he would teach people how to do hot air pcb rework. Dude walks the talk and empowers people.
You are missing my point.
No one’s dismissing Rossmann or the value of empowerment. The problem is acting like isolated efforts equal systemic change. If this were as easy as you claim, the landscape would reflect that.
So yes, you’re missing the point. Passion is fine, but without policy, infrastructure, and incentives, it goes nowhere.
So how do we start?
Same token, sounds like you're arguing, not doing.
(And for the failing RAM: open the hood, a LED tells you which strip is failing, swap it, close, go on… The build quality is quite amazing, BTW.)
None of my MacBook Pros ever had any issues, and I used my last MacBook for 9 years. I could keep using it with Linux instead of MacOS, but I think almost a decade of use is plenty of value for me.
There were recalls and scandals with the MacBook Pro over the years, but nothing that other vendors also didn't see, and that wouldn't have required the same exact parts being replaced. I'm thinking of the GPU issues with certain MacBooks. The difference is Apple is usually able to be held to task to fix issues, while almost any other vendor did not care to stand behind their product, including Lenovo.
I had a Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Carbon with the HiDPI screen that was absolutely awful, requiring replacement multiple times. Each time, the moron from Unisys that Lenovo sent to do the on-site repair would return me with a laptop that was poorly reassembled, and with new problems due to the tech's ineptitude. The same dude did service for Lenovo servers, and he once dropped a server that needed a fan replaced on the floor. Talk about fragile.
Thinkpads are great, and the oldest ones are still solid to use, but to say that MacBooks are fragile ignores that Thinkpads too are fragile.
Sorry, but this is a joke. "any other vendor did not care to stand behind their product"? Give me a break.
Apple has been time and again the champion of denying issues with their products until lawsuits forced their hand, often settling without admitting wrongdoing. Bendgate, Batterygate, MBP nVidia, MBP AMD, Butterfly keyboard, just off the top of my head. (Again: My criticism here is about how Apple handled them.)
"You're holding it wrong" is a meme for a reason (that didn't result in a lawsuit, though IIRC)
Butterfly keyboard
Yes, a bad design. But Apple launched a repair program that covered every affected MacBook for multiple years. I was affected by this, and had my keyboard replaced twice. Compare that to Lenovo’s ThinkPad coil whine and sleep bugs, which they never publicly acknowledged and never fixed. Users were told it was “within spec.”
Batterygate
Apple throttled devices to preserve battery life and didn’t communicate it well. After the backlash, they launched a battery replacement program and settled a class-action lawsuit. HP had massive issues with failing batteries and Nvidia GPUs no meaningful recall, just silence.
MBP GPU failures
Apple ran logic board replacement programs for both sets of failures. They repaired machines years out of warranty. Microsoft, on the other hand, ignored Surface Pro 4 screen flickering for over two years, then limited their replacement program to a narrow window, leaving many customers stuck.
Bendgate
Apple initially downplayed it, but the iPhone 6 Plus was later included in a touchscreen repair program. Compare that to Asus ROG Zephyrus early models that ran hot, warped, and suffered fan noise issues. Users got nothing but “working as intended” responses.
“You’re holding it wrong”
A tone-deaf response. But they gave out free bumper cases to all iPhone 4 customers, no strings attached. Dell’s XPS 15, meanwhile, had persistent audio latency and trackpad issues over multiple generations, and they never rolled out a formal fix or support campaign.
Apple has problems, yes. But they also have stores, trained techs, and formal programs that actually address the issues. The service experience isn’t perfect, but it exists. With most other vendors, you’re stuck mailing your device to a third-party contractor who might show up late and leave you worse off.
Apple doesn’t get a free pass. But pretending they’re worse than companies who ghost their customers when things go wrong doesn’t line up with reality.
Yeah, and I explicitly stated that this isn't what I was criticizing.
>The difference is that Apple, after enough pressure, actually fixes things. They create repair programs, offer recalls, and have the infrastructure to make things right. Most vendors don’t.
Which simply is bullshit.
I don't know why you feel the need for a play-by-play - I know, I was affected by several of them. And every single one of them was Apple reacting only after prolonged active denial and deflection culminating in lawsuits. There's nothing to defend here. That's shitty service.
Kinda sad that that you feel the need to bring random other issues into the mix (Coil Whine, really? LOL, remember the MBP "Moo"?) coupled with outright lies (of course HP issued recall programs - for both the NVidia GPUs and the batteries).
>The service experience isn’t perfect, but it exists. With most other vendors, you’re stuck mailing your device to a third-party contractor who might show up late and leave you worse off.
No, with serious vendors, you're not. It seems you've never experienced real business on-site service. (And yes, it was still cheaper than AppleCare.) Compare that to wondering with every visit at the service center whether your problem will even be acknowledged as such or you're gonna be gaslit. (And I'm speaking from experience.)
> But pretending they’re worse than companies who ghost their customers when things go wrong doesn’t line up with reality.
Neither does pretending that's all that exists (or even being close to the norm with high-end gear).
In my case, I had a ThinkPad X1 Carbon with a new, whiz-bang 4k screen that needed warranty service due to a faulty panel. Lenovo sent out a Unisys contractor who botched the repair—cracked the screen bezel, and somehow left the machine unable to boot. Lenovo sent the same guy back, and each visit made things worse. This happened multiple times, and the machine had to be fully replaced more than once because the repairs kept introducing new problems. This same tech also dropped a Lenovo server during a fan swap at a different site. So yeah, I’ve experienced “real” onsite business service, and it was an absolute mess more often than not.
Every vendor has issues. That’s not the point. The difference is that Apple actually rolls out repair programs and has the infrastructure to fix things in a relatively consistent way. You can take a broken machine to a store, talk to someone who can usually solve your problem, and almost always walk out with a solution. Pretending other vendors are more accountable just doesn’t match reality. They’re not immune to problems. They’re just a lot better at quietly ignoring them.
This. It existed. The laptops still commanded enthusiasm, felt great, capable, and solid without being too heavy, and had swappable RAM and disk. Keyboard and battery swap were screwdriver set DIYs. Heck, the old Pismos had hot swappable battery and drive bays.
I'm still frequently using a MacBook Pro 11,3. Only lets you swap the drive but that by itself is a great point of flexibility.
The M series does amazing things which have their own merits, but the particular set of tradeoffs aren't inevitable.
The "sacrifices must be made" idea apparently sacrifices recall of other possibilities first.
Unless you're Samsung, almost all RAM is 3rd party. It's either Sammsung, SK Hynix, or Micron.
Even if a professional can fix it, that expertise to be able to use those tools worth "a few thousand dollars" costs a lot too, likely pushing the price high enough that its worth thinking about buying a new device instead.
While the battery might be the only thing with a fixed lifetime, other components often also break. I was unlucky and owned a ThinkPad with one soldered on RAM module and one socketed slot to be able to upgrade the RAM, but that didn't help the day that the soldered on RAM died on me.
Realistically I don't know anyone with my specific kind of problem who's used their services before, so I don't really know their reputation. It's not like walking into a supermarket, or even getting a car repaired where you have some sense of the likelihood it will take as long as they say, cost as much as they say and actually succeed. There's much greater information asymmetry.
Of course, given how unattractive it is to get something repaired, more people will be inclined to just buy something new, resulting in less demand for repairs, resulting in less supply, less attractive repair market, etc.
Repairability (at home, by relative morons) also means more repair shops, because less repairability means death of a repairs market.
This is generally a problem in taxation than the devices. Consider I want to have an electrician fix my broken wallsocket:
>Billed for 100€/hour
>Out of which expenses for moving using a workcar, calculating by officially recognized tax administration car wear value 0,59€/km for 5km both ways, so ~6€, 94€ remains
>VAT is 25,5%, leaving you with ~70€
>Paying for mandatory employer's portion of pension 17,5%, leaving us with ~57,75€
Now the employee gets 57,75€, out of which following are deducted:
>Income tax for average electrician: 26%, ~15€
>Employee's part of mandatory pension: 7,15%, ~ 4,1€
>Municipal taxes: ~8% depending on municipality ~ 4,6€
So 57,75€ - 23,7€ = ~34€
There are also various single or partial percent taxes that slightly affect the outcome, and companies often want some sort of profit instead of directly giving 100% to the single employee.
CUDIMM is changeable and fast.
> The user being able to swap parts easily is _neat_ but it's just not an required feature
Mostly because people seem to have forgotten that it was possible. Often laptops are slow to due either a too full disk and/or not enough memory. It used to be more common to upgrade those. But apparently that knowledge/skill is forgotten and it's now more custom to buy a new device.
Being able to change those saves money IMO.
I funded my early career years by doing IT for home users of all sorts of expertise and budget and I feel like I got a decent gauge at what the average user did during the replaceable hardware era.
The people in the middle class and below would end up with such a shit device out of the gate (those 400-600usd laptops at the time, lower outside of the us), that by the time they started complaining about slowness, the upgradeable things did not make a difference. 1 to 2gb ram with a shit Celeron? Hardly worth the money. Bottom shelf Core2duos, overheating, cracking hinges, etc.
Not to mention that even then not all laptops were very standard in the way they were built. Taking one apart could be very time consuming and they would pay by the hour for me to do it, so after labor it was above what the device was worth and it would only buy them a few months of time at most. You do that once and you realize next time you’ll get a desktop.
The richer people would just get MacBooks and only call me for software stuff.
Companies had thinkpads and once purchased would never go out the standarized build. Just swap them when out of warranty, or at the time most would actually work at a desk with a desktop and leave work at work.
The real reason however is that going up SoC SKUs at apple gives you more memory channels. Those bandwidth increases you see in specs are because of that, not because the memory is soldered.
I meant the following: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAMM_(memory_module)
That's a way to have the memory close, but still being able to change it (without e.g. hot air station or something).
not worth it
The whole setup (allegedly) fits inside original chassis, too, and disk speeds are about the same. So the only real tradeoffs for Apple are cost and the fact that user can swap in third party parts instead of paying obscene prices Apple charges for spec upgrades.
Would certainly be more "green."
I wish more people took direct control over their lives. But many are just happy to not think and put up with whatever they get.
In a lot of places that is highly illegal
Can't speak to every model, but it's not always like this. I just swapped the battery on my 2020 M1 Macbook Air, and it's much easier now. The battery is glued to a metal tray that unscrews and lifts out of the laptop. It is discarded with the old battery. The tray is also held down with pull-tab adhesive strips, but they are trivial to remove - similar to what "command hooks" have.
https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Air+13-Inch+Late+2020+B...
I've also done a battery swap on a 2015 Macbook Pro 15" - much harder. Each individual battery cell is glued directly to the chassis, and removing each one involves a lot of prying and praying it doesn't puncture or decide to detonate.
Back to the macbook air, I've also replaced the screen and USB-C ports. It's not that bad.
I've only ever swapped the battery on a late 2011 MacBook and it was kept in place by three tri-wing screws - really simple procedure and reportedly the device is still in use. I would not attempt the same on a 2015 or 2019 model due to the glue situation.
These "fragility" arguments always, as in the case of the OP, ignore the actual experience of owning and using the thing. People will adopt an ancient smartphone because they are locked into the idea that removable battery and removable SD cards are morally superior, and then blindly ignore the fact that the battery life sucks, the only batteries available are random chinese junk, the backs are easy to break and lose, SD cards are unreliable and easy to lose, and so forth. There is a reason that the market overwhlemingly prefers phones and laptops with fixed storage and integrated battery packs.
Recently I decided to do a service on it for the first time, and I was absolutely stunned by how little dust had built up in the CPU fan and the interior in general, after 7 years of usage, often sitting on top of a couch or bed, near my long-haired Norwegian forest cat Rufus. All it needed was a litle puff of computer duster and it was good as new. That's very good design of the air intakes and is a huge factor in the machine's longevity.
I did computer repair professionally for a while, and one of the most common causes of irreparable death I saw in laptops was massive dust buildup in cpu fans and consequent heat damage to surrounding components. I'd sometimes see this in 2-3 year old laptops even.
Funny to think that something as simple as the shape of an air intake opening can have such a profound impact on the lifetime of a device.
The other thing that Thinkpads are unrivaled at is protection for the display. People like to say macbooks are sturdy, but they are quite prone to cracked displays because of Apple's obsession with smaller bezels. The thinkpad ofc has t34 style angled armor for its display. Can't remember ever seeing a Thinkpad with a cracked display. And I carry my Thinkpad around in just a backpack with no sleeve, often the Thinkpad is the only thing in there, and it regularly impacts the floor when the(thin-bottomed) backpack is put down while sitting down on the bus or getting home.
If you're only running programs that you have full control of, and can compile/fix locally, or where receiving security fixes &etc. don't matter, then you're good. But things are a bit more interconnected, these days.
I do still enjoy running my hardware into the ground rather than tossing out perfectly good components every few years though (:
[1] In my case, the boot loader stopped working for my hardware on FreeBSD 11.4
That's interesting/strange. Did you report it? I'd expect them to care about that serious of a breakage in a point release.
It eventually got auto-closed for not being tagged to any non-EOL versions. I did recently confirm it was still a problem on newer releases, but that hardware died not long after, so I didn't pursue it.
My best guess is that it was some BIOS-level oddity. It's also possible that it was due in some way to the hardware (slowly) dying; I can't be sure. But it was a very clear "worked on release X, stopped working on release Y (and beyond)" sort of behavior.
[1] https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=257722
Thanks to Linux I have kept my memory need low (8GB IIRC)
- Love the dual batteries (one swappable) unavailable on Apple-design infested T490
- Retrofitted with magnesium top case and bezel mod
- 5 extended 72 Whr batteries with a third-party external charger from some dude in the UK
- Upgraded to fastest processor and discrete GPU (slow on its own but I use a Razer Core X eGPU with an Nvidia RTX 3070 Ti, and can run basically any game on Steam.)
- 32 GiB of RAM
- WiFi 6e Intel AX210 (looking at WiFi 7 using the AMD-compatible Broadcom FastConnect 7800 / QCNCM865 that I run on my AMD 7900 Asrock DeskMini X600 electronic lab Windows-only things box that I'm typing on right now).
- Bought OE replacement most likely to fail: keyboards, pointing stick (and tips), trackpad assembly, and fans (I think I bought 6). Any loose USB, etc. connectors I can resolder myself.
- I might have a slight mainboard problem because I'm constantly running ThrottleStop to get higher, sustained Tdp with SpeedFan sending fans manually to full blast or otherwise the max freq randomly drops to painfully-slow 900 MHz max non-deterministically.
Two of the four used X220 units I've bought arrived with the lid end piece wiggling, because it was no longer firmly attached to the main piece.
The X200 and almost every other ThinkPad managed just fine with a 1-piece lid, including being rugged against drops, so I don't know why the change.
Did you find any typical repairs for the lid section?
(I haven't opened up my wiggly units yet, but I guess probably it got banged, and either screws were stripped out of their holes, or some internal plastic piece snapped.)
If Lenovo were to release a modern T420-like, with identical chassis, battery system and similar IO port variety, but a modern display, modern internals (replaceable SSD! soldered RAM at least has a case for performance) and a modern camera, cash would evaporate out of my wallet.
I remember there was a person [1] modding T60/T61s into "T700"s with 11th gen Intel chips. Unfortunately it looks like the project's been quiet since 2022. Hopefully there'll be more who try.
ThinkPads ain't what they were. My x230 is still going.
The package manager needs more RAM than the average other package manager because it is doing a lot more behind the back.