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Posted by Leary 4/5/2025

Trump's Tariff Formula Makes No Economic Sense. It's Also Based on an Error(www.aei.org)
256 points | 191 commentspage 3
walterbell 4/5/2025|
> The formula for the tariffs, originally credited to the Council of Economic Advisers and published by the Office of the United States Trade Representative, does not make economic sense.

There is a 2024 paper (40 pages) by Stephen Miran, chair of the Council of Economic Advisers, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43589350

  The root of the economic imbalances lies in persistent dollar overvaluation that prevents the balancing of international trade, and this overvaluation is driven by inelastic demand for reserve assets. As global GDP grows, it becomes increasingly burdensome for the United States to finance the provision of reserve assets and the defense umbrella, as the manufacturing and tradeable sectors bear the brunt of the costs... Tariffs provide revenue, and if offset by currency adjustments, present minimal inflationary or otherwise adverse side effects.
https://financialpost.com/news/stephen-miran-economist-trump...

> Miran.. points to Trump’s application of tariffs on China in 2018-2019, which he argues “passed with little discernible macroeconomic consequence.” He adds that during that time the U.S. dollar rose to offset the macroeconomic impact of the tariffs and resulted in significant revenue for the U.S. Treasury.. “The effective tariff rate on Chinese imports increased by 17.9 percentage points from the start of the trade war in 2018 to the maximum tariff rate in 2019,” the report said. “As the financial markets digested the news, the Chinese renminbi depreciated against the dollar over this period by 13.7 per cent, so that the after-tariff USD import price rose by 4.1 per cent.”

nprateem 4/5/2025||
This is the most important doc to read. I'm surprised even the FT don't mention it (although commenters do).

Next step is currency devaluation. Think I'm going to sell all my US stocks despite the recent battering as they're likely to fall further.

tvb12 4/7/2025||
I'm still reading the paper, but Stephen Miran must regret writing this...

A sudden shock to tariff rates of the size proposed can result in financial market volatility. ... A second Trump Administration is likely therefore take steps to ensure large structural changes to the international tax code occur in ways that are minimally disruptive to markets and the economy

tvb12 4/7/2025||
I'm beginning to suspect that I've read more of this paper than anyone in the current administration has.

While President Trump has proposed a 10% tariff on the world as a whole, such a tariff is unlikely to be uniform across countries.

Oof.

Once tariffs begin increasing beyond 20% (on a broad, effective basis), they become welfare-reducing

Uh...

How can the U.S. get trading and security partners to agree to such a deal? First, there is the stick of tariffs. Second, there is the carrot of the defense umbrella and the risk of losing it.

Ukraine, Greenland, Canada... They've created so much doubt over the defense umbrella that they've really hurt their position here.

timka 4/7/2025||
Trying to make economic sense of a political action makes no sense. Trumps's goal is to disrupt global trade.
DarknessFalls 4/5/2025||
Trump said he is open to negotiation on these tariffs. The factor of four difference is likely intentional padding. This way, he can:

1.) Shock the market into dropping several hundred points on the S&P and Nasdaq indices, thereby making quite a bit of money on the way down and then back up again. and

2.) Lower tariffs in exchange for patronage from countries or specific businesses that want a port opened in this new trade firewall.

Balgair 4/5/2025||
Issue is that Japanese Prime Minister Shigeru Ishiba visited Donny in February already to avoid tariffs and talk security. Ishiba gave him a one of a kind golden samurai helmet even. It was kind of a big deal.

Donny reneged on that.

Other countries know that Donny is not trustworthy when it comes to deals. He will go back on them at any time.

You can't negotiate with a pigeon.

https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2025/02/b4067f888d9e-japa...

pinkytoe 4/5/2025||
this is a classic way that kings and other authoritarian leaders demand patronage.
lostlogin 4/5/2025||
A fair few kings also got their heads chopped off due to getting too unpopular with the masses.

I don’t think can attribute the actions of Trump to intelligence or cunning.

rramadass 4/5/2025||
This is what i was thinking of yesterday after folks on HN pointed me to the "official formula" from the govt. I could not understand why the "elasticity" parameters were chosen in such a manner as to cancel out. Now it seems it was chosen deliberately to give "room for maneuvering" when the concerned countries inevitably come to the negotiating table; never mind that the formula itself is not economically sound. It also explains why Trump and his Team keep saying the "economic hardships" will be short-term and will get better soon.
deepfriedchokes 4/5/2025||
Trump was the emotional vote, and he is governing emotionally.
readthenotes1 4/5/2025||
Apparently he's been upset by the trade barrier imbalance since the 1980s.

https://youtu.be/6BJYbn4MppM?feature=shared

colechristensen 4/5/2025|||
no, this is not emotional government

it's just incompetence

real estate allows a lot of bullshit from a leader like this because they're not going to go in and give orders to the structural engineers or the electricians that can actually cause huge problems, the only thing a bullshit artist is going to influence are the outward appearances which are easy and you can't do so wrong that the building falls over. the thin facade can really just be whatever and you can always screw over a new set of suppliers or go bankrupt again and keep going

now the lifelong real estate scammer is taking that facade bullshit attitude which basically couldn't go wrong and directing towards the very impactful machinery of the global economy expecting the same kind of bluster to be the same kind of effective

it's not emotional reactions it's just stupidity, people who didn't understand things voted for the guy that puts on a much better show

and didn't vote for the people who put on a terrible show, displayed zero hutzpah, and have the attitude of "i know better than you" and "i told you so" and make no effort to hide it

more-nitor 4/5/2025||
[flagged]
titaniumtown 4/5/2025|||
This post reads like its an AI generated bot trying to stur something up.
more-nitor 4/5/2025||
I'm sorry but Americans including democrats were really harsh on biden on the last election.

Arrange a political debate right after a diplomatic tour, with huge jet-legs sleep loss?

free-trans-surgery with tax payer money?

no wonder that man went "fck this"

I just wonder if democrats simply gave up on the last election

raffael_de 4/5/2025||
Most people's thinking here seems to be clouded by political ideologies and anger over their stocks being down. Game theoretically Trump has a long history of basically playing the perfect strategy of extreme unpredictability, willingness to take a loss for the purpose of making a point, but sufficient reliability if a deal is agreed upon that he benefits from the most. He's the one who'll brake the last in a game of racing to the edge of a cliff - always. That's why he will succeed and the US will keep the upper hand geopolitically and economically. But the world will change also - that's actually why he's playing so tough. The cake is being divided anew and China _will_ get a much larger portion. His goal is not to prevent this - because he can't - his goal is to secure an as large as possible piece for himself and the US.

The tariffs are for forcing the entire world to renegotiate anything that he is interested in. And that plan will work. They will ALL negotiate, with him holding the upper hand.

PS: Many of the replies suggest that countries can achieve independence of US companies and the US Dollar. While that is possible they forget a key weakness of democracies. Politicians are elected based on short-term benefits and avoidance of suffering. All those required actions to reach independence require serious long-term efforts that detrimentally impact the comfort of the respective voting population at least short-term. That's why those adjustments probably won't happen. Trump knows that and takes advantage of it. Countries not governed by a democratic system are usually led by an elite who'll be indifferent of pretty much anything we are debating here - they just want to obtain more power and wealth. And they'll be achieving this easier when they cooperate with who is factually the most powerful man on the planet.

herval 4/5/2025||
Look up what happened when he tried to strongarm China in 2018. China simply switched their supplier to Brazil, and never fully returned as a buyer of the American product.

Trump’s ship of fools is tossing the US to the sidelines of the global trade, in particular due to his inability to work with anyone else. EU is rearming, they won’t need “america’s protection”. Latin America (with the only exception being Argentina) is stronger than ever as a trade block, and getting courted by EU and China. Africa is aligning with China for a decade. India is going up the ladder, from US’s cheap labor center to a country producing goods for their own consumption. Even Israel seems completely uninterested in joining the “green list”.

Everyone will find more reliable trade partners, and the American people will be left hanging with this supposed “upper hand” trump supporters dream he has

raffael_de 4/5/2025||
> Look up what happened when he tried to strongarm China in 2018. China simply switched their supplier to Brazil, and never fully returned as a buyer of the American product.

Okay, let's have a look ... well, this statistic doesn't back up your claim:

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/exports/china

> Trump’s ship of fools

Which is actually part of his strategy. You need fools that commit outrageous claims, threats and actions. Then he can play the good cop when it makes sense and just fire the fool. That is basically applied game theory on a meta- and psychological level.

> Everyone will find more reliable trade partners

No, they won't and everybody knows that.

herval 4/5/2025|||
Here u go: https://farmdocdaily.illinois.edu/2024/02/the-united-states-... Plenty of data on the damage he’s done to the US exports. Plenty of data on how Brazil replaced it.

For someone who wants to sound smart citing “game theory”, you surely don’t sound very capable of seeing reality

owebmaster 4/5/2025||||
Spouting "game theory" to everything does not mean he will win these bets, tho.

> No, they won't and everybody knows that.

That's delusional. 70% of the world has China as their main trading partner. The world definitely can thrive without Coke, Facebook, Nike and McDonalds.

raffael_de 4/5/2025|||
Since you were so kind to change "shouting" to "spouting" I'll compliment you a reply.

> That's delusional. 70% of the world has China as their main trading partner. The world definitely can thrive without Coke, Facebook, Nike and McDonalds.

How about Amazon, AWS, Microsoft, Azure, Google, Nvidia, 3M, Pfizer etc.?

owebmaster 4/5/2025||
> How about Amazon, AWS, Microsoft, Azure, Google, Nvidia, 3M, Pfizer etc.?

If all of them leave to be replaced by the alternatives, local or european/chinese, that would definitely be net positive.

herval 4/5/2025|||
Most of these companies can simply move their business to a different country too. The only reason they stay in the US is due to the dollar dominance, which created stability to run a business for decades. If that goes away, what’s the point?
ttyprintk 4/5/2025|||
> Which is actually part of his strategy. You need fools that commit outrageous claims, threats and actions. Then he can play the good cop when it makes sense and just fire the fool. That is basically applied game theory on a meta- and psychological level.

Firings that support this: Flynn, McCabe, Esper, Bolton

Firings that support Trump’s Razor: Comey, Sessions, Tillerson, Nielsen, Krebs

“The dumbest explanation is often the correct one.” tells us that the increase in information from those moves is uselessly low for both him and us. Nevertheless, if Trump is able to influence the rules, the accumulation of side effects of high strategic value gives his advisers something to work with.

tyleo 4/5/2025|||
Or people won’t want to deal with him, route around the US, and let us drive off the cliff alone.
raffael_de 4/5/2025||
Who is people and why wouldn't they want to deal with him when they'll at least short term benefit from it?

All those supposed "people" are like your celebrities who promised to leave the country if Trump gets elected. Nobody left.

This is also a good example of a bad strategy from a game theoretic perspective.

They want X and threaten: if I don't get X then I'll do Y which is going to be bad for you and me. They don't get X and think: well, what's the point of sticking to my threat if I lost anyway. And that's a bluff. Trump would do X nonetheless and by that prove he's willing to suffer himself just to make you suffer as well. This is going to be remembered next time he makes a threat.

herval 4/5/2025|||
Plenty of celebrities & other rich people left. Just because you didn’t read it on Fox News, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. You can easily google and see.

Trump already backpedaled on his tariffs a handful of times. I agree his strategy is bad, from a game theoretical perspective. He’s eroding trust with partners for nothing at all. Just like he ran all his businesses.

ttyprintk 4/5/2025||
This is thoroughly studied. He’s grim trigger but fairly good at choosing close to optimal moves when we believe Trump’s Razor.
raffael_de 4/5/2025||
The trick is that he'll bring his competitors and even partners in a position where they are threatened with suffering at a level of X. Then he'll offer you a deal that makes you suffer Y with Y < X but also Y > 0.
ttyprintk 4/5/2025||
Yet playing a mixed strategy means that—-to maintain unpredictability—-these deals to avoid venal retribution are not always offered. I predict less than 30% of the time; almost all his Pareto-optimal deals are very obscure. The biggest example is USMCA, which he wrote and negotiated. Yet, today he says it was signed by a fool. “The dumbest explanation is usually the correct one.”
charcircuit 4/5/2025|
>The trade deficit with a given country is not determined only by tariffs and non-tariff trade barriers, but also by international capital flows, supply chains, comparative advantage, geography, etc.

All of those other things, minus geography are influenced by the terrifs. Terrifs make economic incentives to invest in America, for America to gain comparative advantages, etc.

tdb7893 4/5/2025|
I mean yeah those are influenced by tariffs a bit (I think it's a safe assumption that the writers of the article know that). It doesn't change the fact that those are mostly driven by things besides US tariffs.