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Posted by pmags 4/6/2025

U.S. stock futures tumble indicating another plummet on Wall Street(www.reuters.com)
189 points | 308 commentspage 2
sega_sai 4/7/2025|
Asian markets already falling by 5-10%. I don't think it will get better as it propagates to Europe and USA.

The Liz Truss moment truly arrived to the USA and the world. We'll see what happen s when an idiot gets to rule a big country like a king.

xracy 4/7/2025||
Feels like one of the better possible outcomes from this is that Congress realizes it has actual powers and starts using them. But I'm predicting things are going to have to get bad before people wake up to this problem.

I think if this continues the most likely thing is that the US Dollar will soon no longer be the world's reserve country. I'm surprised other countries haven't hedged this way already given what happened the last time this administration was in charge, but I would sure be looking for a way out of the US dollar if I was a non-US-country right now.

If the tariffs hold, I would be looking to cut out US-dollars from my transactions as quickly and aggressively as possible. Feels like a couple of cinder-blocks attached to my parachute at the moment, I might not know how to untangle them, but surely it can't be worse than the state I'm in right now.

In the US, I shudder to think what would happen if the economy got this derailed, and everyone's doing everything they can to untangle from it. I would kind of expect China or Europe's stable economies to be a sudden draw that the rest of the world adjust to. And I would be starting to look at what things I can get from the rest of the world as an alternative to the US.

When I voted against this outcome I knew that I voted against the rest of the policy changes from this regime (Encroachment on 1st amendment, General Oligarchy, etc.), but I didn't know I was also voting against a pseudo-scorched-earth economic policy intended to destroy the US. There are real ways in which I hope they are too stupid to know what they're doing because they're digging their own grave. I just also fear the number of people who are going to be in that grave with them.

breatheoften 4/6/2025||
What i want to know is how long does it take for this kind of dip to show up in real estate prices -- there's a certain amount of loss in that sector (not all that large) before the downward trend in asset prices becomes self-accelerating -- unless banks and lenders put in policies to actively avoid putting out margin calls and the like
duxup 4/6/2025||
I think for that to happen you need a lot of sellers. To get sellers ... I fear we're going to need to see a lot of layoffs first :(
Aurornis 4/7/2025|||
Uncertainty has spiked. People refrain from making big decisions like moving in these conditions.

People are hunkering down. Cutting spending, staying put, watching for their jobs. Moving is expensive so it’s likely to be delayed.

TaurenHunter 4/7/2025|||
If it dips too much that means interest rates will go lower, which will fuel another round of inflating real estate.
bitmasher9 4/7/2025||
Wouldn’t housing prices decrease be a major downward pressure on inflation?
TaurenHunter 4/7/2025||
1/3 of the CPI is calculated using the rent variation smoothed in the last 6 months - which is not too elastic due to lease agreements. So it wouldn't be a major downward pressure.
robocat 4/7/2025||
real estate prices hella depend on mortgage interest costs, because you bid based on what your can borrow.

If consumers are less confident about borrowing large amounts, or if banks stop lending freely, then house prices will drop.

fakedang 4/6/2025||
Something I've realized over the course of the past few days is that the USA's biggest export is the US dollar. A medium of exchange that can be used as a proxy trade good between two unrelated countries, backed by the power of the US Government and the US Military. Look at any other industry, and save for a few like defence and information technology, most of USA's production exists to be served within the country itself, not to be exported. Most traditional manufacturing industries such as agricultural processing, food, automobiles, steel, shipbuilding, hardware, etc., all either serve solely the domestic market or have been outsourced away. Over the last few decades, the US has basically traded away its manufacturing capabilities and its economic independence, in favour of remaining top dog hegemon, while utilizing its network of allies and friendly countries to provide raw material for its industries and the USD-based markets to sell to. Obviously this system works very well for a country which has made working with allies a steady policy, but for a country now hell-bent on bashing its allies and any others friendly to trading with it, it can only spell a steady decline.
senderista 4/6/2025||
This could never happen in an actual parliamentary democracy. Too bad we don't live in one anymore.
pseudalopex 4/6/2025||
> This could never happen in an actual parliamentary democracy.

Why not?

joegibbs 4/7/2025|||
The parliamentary system is a lot more volatile and competitive - if a leader irritates their party enough or is tipped to lose they're quickly challenged and voted out. In Australia we had 31 leadership spills from 2000 to 2015 and 5 prime ministers from 2010 to 2018.
pseudalopex 4/7/2025||
All but a few members of Trump's party support him or fear they will lose their next primary elections if they oppose him openly.
senderista 4/7/2025||||
Under the constitution, Trump doesn't have the power to unilaterally make trade policy (that is Congress's prerogative). He claims he does under a vaguely worded emergency powers law that clearly doesn't apply to current circumstances (we are not, or at least were not, in the sort of emergency contemplated by the law). (This goes to show that all such laws granting extraordinary powers to the executive during "emergencies" will eventually be abused by someone sufficiently unscrupulous.)

In a "real" parliamentary system, Trump already would have gotten a no-confidence vote.

pseudalopex 4/7/2025||
Congress could revoke Trump's emergency declarations at any time. A measure to do this for Canada passed the Senate by 1 vote only. The House will not vote on it probably. Members of the majority party are more afraid they will lose their next primary elections if they oppose the leader than they will lose their next general elections because of the leader's policies. Those are not conditions to pass a confidence motion.
gonzo41 4/7/2025||||
In Australia and Britain if the PM acts this wildly, the party steps in and replaces them. They call them party room coups, and everyone gets shitty when it happens, but they protect the status quo pretty well. It happened to 4 Australian PMs in a row and everyone was generally fine with it.
Ekaros 4/7/2025|||
Also just look at what UK went through in recent years... PM operates on allowance of their party and in coalitions the other parties. Make too big moves and they are very quickly over the board.
mrguyorama 4/7/2025||
A lot of people are comparing this to Liz Truss but in fact it's so much worse. The fact that the party not the people put her in charge means that there was much less loss of trust when they removed her.

Compared to if Liz Truss had been voted in by the public TWICE?

pseudalopex 4/7/2025|||
Many Americans thought their institutions protected the status quo pretty well.

In Australia the Liberal Party in changed the rules to require a 2/3 majority to remove a PM. In America blocking Trump's tariffs or removing him would require less than 1/3 of his party to vote with the opposition. They fear voters would punish them. How many Australian politicians voted for these party room coups knowing it would end their political careers?

SpicyLemonZest 4/7/2025|||
Because the legislature would need to approve such a radical change, which they clearly wouldn't do.
pseudalopex 4/7/2025||
The legislature passed a law granting the leader of the executive branch emergency powers. The leader of the executive branch invoked the law for actions the legislature did not intend arguably. This happened in parliamentary democracies also.
BobaFloutist 4/7/2025||
Brexit did.
TheAlchemist 4/6/2025||
This is the week when "Tech and Finance bro" start turning against Trump, unless he does something quickly.

Bessent, the only sane member of Trump's cabinet, sounded really worried and stressed last days. This kind of damage, cannot be undone just by saying 'Hey, it was art of the deal'. Confidence in US government is destroyed. Sure there will announcements about 100s or 1000s of Billions that will be invested, but it's just words. Just like DOGE saved how much already ? 1 Trillion $ ? And still not a single person was charged with fraud...

S&P is down 2.5% on 1Y, and up 80% on 5Y, and valuations are at insane, Dot-com bubble levels. If he keeps the tariffs though, the damage can become much much more substantial that this relatively small decline in the markets.

"When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king, the palace becomes a circus" Turkish Proverb.

TeaBrain 4/6/2025||
Bessent had repeatedly been saying that he wanted to drive down the yield on the 10 year treasury. The stock market sell-off has been somewhat effective in doing this, with the 10 year's yield having been driven down over 50 basis points in the last two months, although I doubt this precipitous selloff is really what he had in mind.
shuckles 4/6/2025||
The 10Y is well above its September lows, even before accounting for whatever deficit increasing tax cuts the Republicans will come up with.
TeaBrain 4/6/2025||
Yeah, I saw that. I was just looking at a chart of the yield over the last year. The yield has dropped below where it was for most of the last 12 months, besides a less than three month period from late July to early October last year. If Bessent is listening to people like Dalio though, he may be wanting the yield to go down below 3%, which is what I think Dalio said was necessary to avoid a debt spiral.
shuckles 4/7/2025||
I’m sure Trump announcing that he’s considering defaulting on the debt and the 10Y up to its yield from last Monday is all part of the plan too.

Acting like investors won’t reprice treasures as “not the risk free rate” if it’s being transparently manipulated by the government is bad analysis.

TeaBrain 4/9/2025||
I'm not making any attempt at analysis, just casual speculation as to the reasoning behind other peoples' actions. You're mistaking my guess-work of others' analysis for my own.
shuckles 4/11/2025||
My key point is the people involved aren’t doing analysis. They are NPCs just like the worst ideologues on the left; it’s just that their brain worms are that goods trade deficits are bad and some sort of theft. You’re coming to wrong theories about what their intent is because you’re assuming they’re reasoning.
thfuran 4/6/2025|||
>Confidence in US government is destroyed.

That has long been a Republican goal. They want to tear it apart and sell the pieces.

fzeroracer 4/6/2025|||
It's their goal, but rather than the typical approach of 'starving the beast' they're just shooting the beast in broad daylight on 5th street. Which I think makes it much harder to ignore the person holding the gun. Outside of the full cult sycophants.
bamboozled 4/6/2025|||
For what gain ?
pseudalopex 4/7/2025||
Profit opportunities for them and their supporters. Buying the pieces at discounted prices. Selling the public the services the government used to provide. Converting costs to externalities. And some believe axiomatically governments are inefficient and businesses are efficient.
bamboozled 4/9/2025||
Well then they will live in a shittier place with (maybe) a little more money in the bank, which will likely be worth less than it was before the dismantling.
KoolKat23 4/6/2025||
I thought Bessent was one of the architects of this tariff plan?
TheAlchemist 4/6/2025|||
He was supposed to be. But he was clearly left out of the loop - look for interviews with him from the Liberation Day. He cleary had no clue what just happend and was very nervous.
llm_nerd 4/7/2025|||
He clearly is an outsider. He seldom has any idea what is going on and seems panicked. Even Lutnick, despite being used in an unending series of cable news soundbites saying incredibly out of touch, stupid thing, clearly is just a bystander.

Trade policy is being set by Trump, Navarro (you know, the guy who made up a trade expert to launder his own idiotic ideas) and that vile goblin Stephen Miller. An idiot council.

bananapub 4/6/2025||
hopefully we eventually learn that we just can't afford the decadance of electing absolute fucking idiots to lead us. Britain definitely didn't learn that after Cameron and Johnson and Truss, and the US didn't after letting Trump fuck the place up the first time, but everyone else has to learn and learn quick.
almog 4/6/2025||
Trump can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent or something like that
guybedo 4/7/2025||
fwiw a well thought criticisim of the chaotic move by the US: https://x.com/StockSavvyShay/status/1908506134270665110
RickJWagner 4/7/2025|
The Shiller ratio is still terribly high. There is room for a great deal more decline.
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