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Posted by cruzcampo 4/11/2025

The thing about Europe: it's the actual land of the free now(www.economist.com)
160 points | 256 commentspage 3
EasyMark 4/11/2025|
They shouldn't get too confident, what's happening here in the USA can happen there as well, and we get a chance to end it every 2 years, hopefully that's the case next November, remember that Congress could stop this at any point, and we have all the warning signs that Trump is a fascist and wants to be dictator for life.
kyriakos 4/11/2025||
why is this flagged?
neuroelectron 4/11/2025||
the thing about Europe is it's not very important. The perfect posture so that mid countries can look powerful in comparison.
nickslaughter02 4/11/2025||
> Germany is not much better. It's illegal to insult elected officials, and if you say the wrong thing, or post the wrong meme, you may well find yourself the subject of a raid at dawn. Just crazy stuff.

https://world.hey.com/dhh/europeans-don-t-have-or-understand...

cruzcampo 4/11/2025|
[flagged]
nickslaughter02 4/11/2025||
Saying somebody else has it even worse doesn't make it any less bad.
cruzcampo 4/11/2025||
[flagged]
axegon_ 4/11/2025||
The sad thing is I've always seen (and still do see) the US as a friend, despite the fact that the current government is trying really hard to turn the US into a dictatorship(shutting down medias that criticize them, cozying up with literal criminals, murderers and worse and so on and calling it "freedom" - the exact same approach lenin had). I know things will turn around eventually since this is not the first such instance in the history of the US. Coming from eastern Europe, the US was the place to be when I was growing up and this carried on into the first half of my 20's. I immigrated into western Europe in my teens and continued my education there but as soon as my country entered the EU, somehow the appeal of going to the US slowly started to vanish. The idea of dealing with immigration offices and endless bureaucracy was really not pleasant. And surprisingly after I completed my studies, I moved back home and all things considered, this was probably the best decision I've ever made.

Now let's set something straight: Europe is bureaucratic hellhole, which is the reason why entrepreneurship is fairly uncommon. Here we are taught to go through the procedures, get whatever licenses and paperwork is required, make sure we follow all steps and cover everything up and then and only then start building a product. The US philosophy is the complete opposite approach: start building and figure it out along the way, which is the reason why Europe is always behind the curve.

This however ended up being both a curse and blessing in disguise for us: the digitalization of everyday life took longer, whereas everyone and their dog in the US had a smartphone and social networks from day 0. In addition, here in Europe we've been exposed to bad actors such as russia for centuries and many of us can navigate through their tactics, whereas the US instantly swallowed everything that was thrown at them with the oldest trick in their book: "media is lying to you, see this picture/video only here". A decade and a half of actively trying to discredit establishments and it ended where it's at. And as much as GDPR is a pain in the ass, companies here are very well aware how badly things can go for them if things are not kept in check. Which, as a citizen, is a great thing.

The other problem with the quick rise of digitization in the US in conjunction with practically non-existent regulations around privacy are grifters, which truly swarmed the internet. Business strategy: make a dumb video "owning someone", share it around so people learn who you are, get them roiled up against one another, having half of them become your worshipers, release a book, merchandise or courses and you are set for life. From practical nobodies all the way up to presidents - it's a guaranteed success. But you have to have 0 moral values to do that and at some point you will need people around you. Thing is that it's only a question of time before everyone around you starts realizing that no one has moral values and start screwing each other up. The US is currently in that stage.

All things considered, the US has fallen really far behind in terms of freedom in single digit months.

Edit: Some time ago my mum was watching some interview with an analyst who really summed it up: "I used to believe the US was about 100 years ahead of China in terms of innovation. I was wrong, it's probably closer to 50. And if you ask me where we are in Europe? Preoccupied with coming up with more inconvenient bottle caps to solve a problem we don't have".

ojl 4/11/2025|
> the digitalization of everyday life took longer, whereas everyone and their dog in the US had a smartphone and social networks from day 0.

This very much depends on where in Europe you were living. In parts of the Nordics (at least Sweden and I think Finland as well) cell phones were very common already in the 90s, and a few years later smart phones as well. I don’t even remember when it wasn’t possible to handle taxes, banking and similar stuff with an app or online. We also had social networks but I guess most died when Facebook arrived here. The US are usually ahead of us in consumer products, but to say that all European countries are bad at all kinds of innovation is quite exaggerated.

axegon_ 4/11/2025||
True but the mass adoption and flooding social media was far more gradual compared to the US still - all the big social media came out of the US really, so did all the massively centralized services. Computers in general have a steep learning curve so they are at large useless for remote rural areas in the US(in Europe you are never too far from a large city with universities and all the modern day creature comforts). Smartphones on the other hand are basic commodity with no entry barrier. 200 bucks and you have access to infinite and unfiltered information, which is what ultimately seems to have caused the issue: Across Europe(like mentioned before) we were all(and sadly still are) collectively playing catch up. And again - Nordics are all too familiar with how russia operates, whereas the US is still far from figuring it out. Hence the reason Europe is far more immune to it, although many are still falling victim. Europe also knows how to protest, which is still at large something the US has no clue about. Imagine if the leader of any large European country shamelessly pulls a pump and dump the way Trump did (twice as a matter of fact) this week. People in Europe pull out their pitchforks for infinitely less.
sMarsIntruder 4/11/2025||
lol
anilakar 4/11/2025||
What is this country called Europe they're talking about?
aaa_aaa 4/11/2025||
Except, anything you "say" can be hate speech or antisemitism in many EU countries. You will be censored, de-platformed or prosecuted.
mathw 4/11/2025||
And why shouldn't incitement to racial hatred be illegal?
aaa_aaa 4/11/2025||
Hate for people you do not know is idiotic and despicable, but it is not a crime.
cruzcampo 4/11/2025||
[flagged]
palata 4/11/2025||
If anything you "say" involves Nazi salutes, then sure. Again, it's a feature.
aaa_aaa 4/11/2025||
It still cannot be a crime. Laws against it are just nurturing this environment.
palata 4/11/2025||
> It still cannot be a crime.

It sure can, as proven by all the countries where it is.

rapsey 4/11/2025||
What we in Europe have is just more political corruption of the justice system and a populace too comfortable to care.
j_maffe 4/11/2025|
You'll have to be more specific about where in Europe. Some places, yes. But only a minority
rapsey 4/11/2025|||
Rotherham in the UK, Le Pen in France, Romanian elections.
j_maffe 4/11/2025||
You think Rotherham and Le Pen are more corrupt than Donald trump? Also Romanian elections properly dealt with foreign intervention, unlike the US.
rapsey 4/11/2025||
Yes I think covering up mass child rape politically and criminally is worse than Donald Trump.

Foreign intervention in Romanian or US elections is a fairy tale. Justification for political corruption of the judicial branch. It is funny how once right wing candidates get close to winning political power, they suddenly turn into criminals and traitors. Makes total sense.

xvokcarts 4/11/2025|||
Shouldn't you be more specific as well, since you're asking that from the parent commenter?
j_maffe 4/11/2025||
No because I'm not the one making absolutist statements. The burden is on the one giving the stronger claim.
jbverschoor 4/11/2025|
Emmm no it's not. Believe it or not, the BRICS are
pseudony 4/11/2025||
So. You believe freely expressing yourself in China will be less dangerous than in Europe ?

I don't think anyone will take that seriously.

jbverschoor 4/11/2025||
Do you believe that's the only thing that defines 'freedom'?
wiseowise 4/11/2025||
How do you define it?
tkel 4/11/2025||
google "positive liberty"
Jensson 4/11/2025|||
How does China have that but not EU?
wiseowise 4/11/2025|||
[flagged]
pjc50 4/11/2025|||
The Russia and China that don't have free elections?
kubb 4/11/2025|||
The theocratic republic of Iran.
anticodon 4/11/2025||||
EU, where Brussels sends to jail candidates in other countries that it doesn't like?
wiseowise 4/11/2025|||
You mean corrupted politicians, or those abusing laws to get to the government?
anticodon 4/11/2025||
You can always find a way to eliminate an undesirable candidate. E.g. declare that they're "paid by Putin". That's all you need to eliminate the undesirable politician, there are usually exactly zero proofs. Declaring that someone is "pro Putin" is enough.

Actually, the range of methods is slightly wider. E.g. there was a French politician investigating the сase of corruption of Ursula von der Leyen. That politician died from "heart attack" just a few days before the hearing. Ah, that's a "conspiracy theory" and "conspiracy theories" are explicitly forbidden now in several EU countries. Also, very convenient.

Same for comments in the Internet. E.g. if you writing something western people doesn't like on Reddit/Facebook/whatever, the only reaction you'll get will be "you're a Kremlin troll"

No need to think and analyze yourself. There's only one truth in the world and it comes from Bloomberg/CNN/BBC.

wiseowise 4/11/2025||
I’m from post Soviet space, bot. I first hand witnessed Putin’s regime and impact it had, do you seriously think I’ll buy what you’re selling?
jbverschoor 4/11/2025||||
Quote after a question in a meeting with the EU I asked and I was taken aside + my mic was muted:

"You can't ask these questions, or we'll all go to jail."

pjc50 4/11/2025||
You can't say things like that and not tell us what the question was.
jbverschoor 4/11/2025||
It had to do with conflict of interest.
croes 4/11/2025|||
Name one who is jailed because the other countries don't like them?
jbverschoor 4/11/2025||
Nobody, because they keep each other out of jail.
jbverschoor 4/11/2025||||
Do you think Trump is not trying to copy the UAE model? I don't believe he'd want any elections to take place anymore in the US
rapsey 4/11/2025|||
Europe and the US have no moral high ground when it comes to the justice system being used against political opponents.
kubb 4/11/2025|||
Anna Politkovskaya – Investigative journalist and critic of the Chechen war, shot in Moscow (2006).

Alexander Litvinenko – Ex-FSB officer poisoned with polonium in London (2006).

Stanislav Markelov & Anastasia Baburova – Human rights lawyer and journalist, shot in Moscow (2009).

Boris Nemtsov – Opposition leader, shot near the Kremlin (2015).

Denis Voronenkov – Former Russian MP, shot in Kyiv (2017).

Nikolai Andrushchenko – Journalist, beaten to death in St. Petersburg (2017).

Alexei Navalny – Opposition leader, died in prison after previous poisoning (2024).

---

Maybe Europe isn't perfect, but the Russian morals are so low that no effort is requried to be better than them.

wiseowise 4/11/2025|||
Bah, that’s the real freedom, comrade. Freedom to kill opposition. How can you call yourself “free” if you can’t freely put polonium in your opponents chai?
rapsey 4/11/2025|||
The end result is not much better. Only the candidates with the right positions get to hold power.
kubb 4/11/2025||
If brutally murdering political opponents and terrorizing own population to uphold the regime doesn't matter to you then we have different values.
croes 4/11/2025|||
How many political opponents in the EU and US died by falling out of windows or getting poisened?
wiseowise 4/11/2025||
Lmao, BRICS.
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