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Posted by tosh 4/12/2025

Trump exempts phones, computers, chips from ‘reciprocal’ tariffs(www.bloomberg.com)
408 points | 884 comments
neonate 4/12/2025|
https://archive.ph/xQGXr
Animats 4/12/2025||
Since last night, anyway. The people who make shipping work are frantically trying to keep up. One of the biggest customs brokers posts updates twice a day on weekdays. Last update 4 PM Friday, so they haven't caught the biggest reversal. If tariff rates change while in transit, the bond paid before the item was shipped may now be insufficient. So the container goes into storage (where?) until Customs and Border Protection gets paid. Some recipients don't have the cash to pay. Low-end resellers who order on Alibaba and sell on Amazon, for example.

Port operators hate this. Unwanted containers clog up the portside sorting and storage systems. Eventually the containers are either sent back or auctioned off by CBP, like this stuff.[1]

Some shippers outside the US have stopped shipping to the US until this settles. This includes all the major laptop makers - Lenovo, Acer, Dell, etc.[2] Nobody wants to be caught with a container in transit, a big customs bill due on receipt, and storage charges. That will recover once the rates are stable for a few weeks. Probably.

Customs and Border Protection is trying to keep up. Sometimes you have to pay more because Trump raised tariffs. Sometimes you can get a credit back because Trump dropped tariffs. Those are all exception transactions, with extra paperwork and delays.

Where's the Flexport guy from YC? He should be able to explain all this.

Consumer version: expect to see some empty shelves, rejected orders, and higher prices for the next few weeks.

[1] https://bid.cwsmarketing.com/auctions/catalog/id/167

[2] https://www.techspot.com/news/107504-trump-tariffs-force-maj...

bayindirh 4/13/2025||
Somebody lost a ton of Bitcoin miner system motherboards [0][1].

[0]: https://bid.cwsmarketing.com/lot-details/index/catalog/167/l..., https://bid.cwsmarketing.com/lot-details/index/catalog/167/l..., https://bid.cwsmarketing.com/lot-details/index/catalog/167/l...

[1]: https://www.biostar.com.tw/app/en/mb/introduction.php?S_ID=1...

beeflet 4/13/2025||
Bitcoin miners tend to be ASICs nowadays. Based on the PCIe lanes I would assume that is for some GPU-mining mobo for equihash or scrypt
bayindirh 4/14/2025||
I can guess, but I'm just echoing what's on the box, or what Biostar says. :)
Y_Y 4/13/2025|||
https://bid.cwsmarketing.com/lot-details/index/catalog/167/l...

I love that I can buy a pallet of miscellaneous medical supplies, and also that someone who specifically wanted them but now can't pay for them has to go without.

erkt 4/13/2025||
The point is to inflict cost to create incentive for domestic production. Obviously the inconsistency on tariffs undermines this position but the pandemic made it very clear that there are domestic security implications for not having important products produced state side. Its not like the $500 cost of a saline bag has anything to do with its production cost. It seems credit liquidity and confidence in long term protectionism are needed for this scheme to work. This requires unity, which we lack.
pstuart 4/13/2025|||
The point is to replace income taxes with tariffs. Domestic production is "desired" but this is not how to rebuild domestic production capability.
Supermancho 4/13/2025|||
> Domestic production is "desired" but this is not how to rebuild domestic production capability

No need to be handwavy. It can be part of a strategy. A painful and ultimately less effective way than another, sure. There will be a lot of factors at play beyond these controls. This administration lacks the ability to focus for very long in any competent sense. I'm not sure there is a strategy that will work, at this time.

Animats 4/14/2025||
I'd really like to see a coherent strategy from somebody on rebuilding American manufacturing.

Bad ideas:

* Tax cuts for the rich will make it happen.[1]

* More tax cuts.[2]

* High tariffs with no plan.[3]

Semi-reasonable ideas:

* Clairmont study.[4]

* McKinsey study (2017).[5] Hasn't held up well.

Manufacturing is low-margin and requires stable markets. How to promote that? There are a lot of dull and boring businesses someone has to do.

Maybe tax policy should be set up to favor dividends over growth. That favors steadily profitable companies over growth companies.

[1] https://waysandmeans.house.gov/2025/01/24/the-golden-age-of-...

[2] https://nam.org/timmons-nam-members-meet-with-bessent-congre...

[3] https://x.com/cspan/status/1909639514861322433

[4] https://dc.claremont.org/restoring-american-manufacturing-a-...

[5] https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/americas/making-i...

ashoeafoot 4/15/2025||
Per product class protectionism installed for new products, then work up the supply chains. Protect electronics, cause electronics go into all thingd, thenprotect homegrown machine suppliers. aka copy chinese growth strategies
zaptrem 4/13/2025|||
So we’d replace income tax with a regressive tax on consumption
nwienert 4/13/2025||
I’ve ran the numbers in a bunch of ways and I don’t think they’re much if any more regressive than current income tax, given the rich avoid income past a point and spend a lot more on goods in the middle band, even percentage based. If you want a better progressive tax you’d need to focus on capital or spending on luxury goods and services.
agubelu 4/14/2025||
Congratulations, you have rediscovered VAT
nwienert 4/14/2025||
Sarcasm completely unnecessary.
SpicyLemonZest 4/13/2025|||
As you say, the inconsistency on tariffs completely undermines this position, because it's widely known that tariffs which change radically from day to day don't incentivize domestic production (and indeed disincentivize all domestic investment). Doesn't this prove that creating incentives for domestic production is not the point, and either there's no clever scheme or the real goal of the scheme is something else?
TeaBrain 4/13/2025|||
Ryan Petersen was on the Bloomberg Odd Lots podcast a few days ago.
Animats 4/13/2025|||
Nice.

Not much optimism for domestic manufacturing or US exports.

re-thc 4/13/2025|||
> Consumer version: expect to see some empty shelves, rejected orders, and higher prices for the next few weeks.

Make that the next few years at this rate.

> Customs and Border Protection is trying to keep up.

There are still people there? DOGE hasn't hit them up?

Doches 4/13/2025||
Why would they? If there’s one agency that’s spiritually aligned with DOGE — in terms of incompetence, malice, and sheer cruelty — it’s ICE/CBP.
Animats 4/13/2025|||
Update: Possible pending reversal today (Sunday) on temporary exemption to emergency China tariff for computers and smartphones.[1][2] Trump and the Secretary of Commerce are saying different things on social media. Trump says he will look at the "whole electronic supply chain." The Wall Street Journal and Bloomberg are trying to keep up with the announcements.

[1] https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/stock-market-trump-tariffs-...

[2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-04-13/trump-say...

Eavolution 4/13/2025|||
Hang on are tarriffs not effective on date of purchase? I'm not American but it seems madness to apply them at any other time as then no one knows what will actually need paid if you've someone like Trump changing them frequently.
Aurornis 4/13/2025|||
Applied at time of passing through customs.

More typical policy would give 90 days notice so businesses could plan ahead. This policy was implemented far too fast with far too high of numbers and now it’s also changing rapidly. It doesn’t make sense.

> I'm not American but it seems madness to apply them at any other time

I’m American and I fully agree it’s madness. This administration clearly doesn’t understand or even care how businesses work. They just thought this was going to be a chest-thumping bargaining chip that caused other countries to come begging at the negotiation table.

It’s not working and now they’re panicking. They don’t want to look weak by backing down so we’re suffering.

Animats 4/13/2025|||
Right. The normal way this works is that when you buy something to be imported into the US, you compute the tariffs and post a "customs bond" with CBP at the same time you pay for the product. When the shipment arrives in the US, the customs bond is used to pay the tariff, and the shipment is released by CBP. Shipping companies such as DHL integrate this into their systems so the end user doesn't have to deal with it directly. To the purchaser, it looks like tariffs are paid when the product is ordered. That's the happy path, taken by most imports.

But when tariffs change faster than it takes to get the shipment from source to destination, the bond won't be for the right amount. You then enter the wonderful world of "insufficient bonds". Here's "Understanding Insufficient Customs Bonds in Nine Easy Steps", which outlines the process and tries to sell you on a service that deals with the problem.[1]

Coming May 2: the end of "de miniumus" customs exemptions for small packages under $800 value. Goodbye, Shein, Ali Express, and dropshippers. Unless, of course, the rules are changed again.

[1] https://www.afcinternationalllc.com/customs-brokerage-news/u...

thfuran 4/13/2025|||
Trump has been spouting the same shit about trade deficits and the US getting ripped off for several decades. I think he legitimately believes high tariffs are a good idea to "fix" trade deficits.
erkt 4/13/2025||
It’s not about trade deficits-it’s about becoming an independent manufacturer again. Whether or not anyone international buys what we make is secondary. Wealth is disproportionately allocated to those that benefit from globalization but the vast majority of Americans are hurting from it, even if a OLED TV costs nickels.
goosedragons 4/13/2025|||
How do these tariffs help the vast majority of Americans? Maybe in a half a decade-decade time they can get a job in some factory as a tech??? Except there's so much uncertainty and so much tariffs even on raw material that it doesn't even make sense from that perspective.

Raising prices on everything is not going to help the majority of Americans. Taxing the rich might have but half the rationale for these tariffs is tax cuts for the rich.

There is no plan or logic to this.

c_o_n_v_e_x 4/15/2025|||
There's a lot more to manufacturing than "just" being a line assembly worker.

The factories have to be designed and built. This includes all of the manufacturing processes, equipment, tooling, automation, etc. All of which are done by reasonably paid, middle class engineers and trades.

Then you have all the 2nd order businesses that get stimulated. Energy must be provided. Mines, mills, refineries, etc. to make the raw materials. The packaging for the end products. Logistics for supplies and end products.

All of the value above used to be in the US but has been captured overseas for decades now.

goosedragons 4/15/2025||
Who is going to build a factory when there's a fifty percent chance the tariff plan changes the next day? Or a refinery? Or a mill? Or a mine?
InDubioProRubio 4/14/2025|||
Was there a plan and logic to outsourcing those jobs and leaving half the country to fend for itself and beg for handouts though?
goosedragons 4/14/2025||
Yes, cheaper goods and more profits duh. If Walmart and others can pay as low as possible wages and shift burden onto the state and it's legal they'll do it. And they did.
ash_091 4/13/2025||||
That is a valid use case for tariffs. I'm not convinced the evidence supports that being the reasoning in this case though.

Development of manufacturing takes time. If that were truly the logic behind the tariffs, wouldn't it make more sense to slowly ramp up tariffs on particular categories of goods with a long notice period to allow time for industries to develop?

Also why all the talk about "punishing" other countries for "taking advantage" if the real goal is to bring manufacturing home?

_DeadFred_ 4/13/2025||
Development of manufacturing also means not tariffing the steel that's required to make the machines to make the things.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/fact-sheets/2025/02/fact-sheet-pr...

shaky-carrousel 4/15/2025||||
The vast majority of Americans will be hurt even more when product prices double just to subsidize a handful of jobs. If there's such strong interest in ensuring some people have a salary—regardless of the cost to everyone else—we might as well drop the pretense and just pay them directly.

Except, of course, if we did that, the government wouldn't be able to hand those factories over to their friends or political allies. That's the real feature of these "industrial policy" moves, not a bug.

Argentina has been running a nearly identical playbook for decades: impose high tariffs and taxes on imports, hand out subsidies to politically connected local manufacturers, and claim it's all in the name of "national production" and "job creation." The result? Inefficient, uncompetitive factories that only survive because they're protected from global markets. Consumers get stuck paying absurd prices for low-quality goods, innovation dies, and the overall economy stagnates. The only real winners are the cronies who cash in on state favors.

If the U.S. goes down that same path, just like Argentina, it's not going to end in a manufacturing renaissance. It's going to end in inflation, stagnation, and a bunch of overpriced junk no one wants to buy.

thfuran 4/13/2025|||
If you think that Trump's goal is to help the average person at the expense of the capital class, I have a few bridges to sell you.
InDubioProRubio 4/14/2025||
If they scream NO in the same loud voice they do on taxes, something is working.
Eddy_Viscosity2 4/13/2025||||
The infrastructure for handling all the tarrif payments and rebates etc simply can't change as fast as these announcements and as a result there will be a whole mass of incorrect charges being applied or not applied that could takes years to sort through. The chaos is the point, or so it would seem.
nikanj 4/13/2025|||
They are effective on the day of passing customs to the US
ashoeafoot 4/13/2025||
So does the trump tarif noise average out to something you can plan with ?
__s 4/13/2025||
No
owenversteeg 4/12/2025||
I’m not seeing anyone discuss this here, so I figured I’d raise an important point: this style of tariffs is crushing for US manufacturing. While a universal tariff with no exceptions incentivizes domestic manufacturing, a selective tariff with specific industry exceptions is absolute poison.

You might think, as the authors of this exemption did, “well then we will exempt computer parts.” Then people will simply import the parts. But if you manufacture those parts in the US, you are suddenly at a massive disadvantage. Your computer parts factory likely runs using a large amount of imported raw materials, imported machines, and imported tooling, and there are no tariff exemptions for those broad categories… so you’re screwed. Oftentimes there is no reasonable domestic substitute. You will go out of business in favor of someone importing the parts, which now happens tariff-free under an exemption. That’s why, generally speaking, tariff exemptions are deadly to domestic manufacturing.

energy123 4/13/2025||
It's the opposite! A universal tariff is a tariff on all inputs that manufacturers need to be competitive. How will Ford or Tesla ever be competitive if all their inputs are 24% more expensive than Toyota's inputs?

Autarky doesn't work. Juche doesn't work. Comparative advantage works, both theoretically and in practice if we study economic history.

tangjurine 4/15/2025|||
They can be competitive in the U.S.
soVeryTired 4/13/2025|||
Do you really believe in the comparative advantage argument though? Surely it’s only true if comparative advantage is fixed over time.

And surely in order to leverage comparative advantage, an economy would need to know how good they would be at producing every possible good.

There are good reasons to trade, but comparative advantage doesn’t feel like the correct theoretical underpinning to me.

bflesch 4/13/2025|||
IMO your logic is all wrong. Comparative Advantage ist just applied "opportunity cost" of time. Humans and resources are unique, everyone has their theoretically "optimal" use of time in terms of economic output.

The invisible hand of the market will let you know what aspect of your output is most valuable for others.

The benefit of this invisible hand is that the "economy" as a whole does not need to know how good they are at producing everything. People just need to know if what they are producing now is more valuable than the next best alternative. Everything else will be sorted out with market forces.

In university lectures we were given the famous argument about olive oil from Greece and that it would never make sense to do our own olive oil because we both lack the natural resources (unique soil + sunshine) which allow olive trees to grow easily and we'd also have much better yields growing other things on the fields.

So to me, both opportunity cost and comparative advantage are really basic building blocks of economic understanding and I'm a bit dumbfounded that someone wouldn't understand these concepts.

cardanome 4/13/2025|||
It is good that you paid attention to economics 101 but we don't live in the 19th century anymore and economic theory has progressed a bit since Ricardo.

We don't have pure free market economies. Neither in China nor in the USA nor anywhere else. The see big monopolistic companies dominating most markets. We see an closer interlink between state and private corporations.

Even just with the currency manipulation that China engages in, things get screwed a lot. Or the special status the US has with the dollar. Real world is more complicated.

But even if we assume free markets, you misunderstood what the previous poster said. The problem with Ricardo's comparative advantages is that is assumes fixed advantages. It is like optimizing for a local optimum. You might be super inefficient in producing X because you have never done it but if you actually invested in learning how to produce X you might discover that you are really good at it and the comparative advantages would go in your favor.

I do still believe that trading with each others can lead to more net wealth in most cases and obviously full autarky is not realistic these days but like anything in economics, it shouldn't be taken as a dogma.

geysersam 4/13/2025||
Absolutely agree. It's ridiculous that low wage labor is considered a "comparative advantage". It's an advantage to capital owners perhaps, but certainly not to workers. And like you said, advantages are not static.

In my opinion it's intrinsically valuable to have a diverse regional economy. Culture and economy are fundamentally inseparable, imagine a society where everyone is doing the same thing because of "comparative advantage" making them 10% more efficient than the other country... What poverty!

energy123 4/13/2025||
This aestheticization of factory jobs is something I've noticed to be driving the New Right's worldview. It's not dissimilar to and no less dangerous than the aesthetic fixation on the agrarian economy of Mao and Pol Pot.

Frankly, no, sweatshops are not important to the cultural fabric of a country.

The US has problems with housing affordability, with medical costs, and with service sector costs emerging from Baumol's cost disease, which are all things that will get worse with tariffs, ranging from higher construction costs, to higher pharmaceutical prices, to less service employees making the cost disease worse.

It's also untrue that comparative advantage only benefits capital. Consumers are hurt by higher prices and less job opportunities driving down demand on the labor market. This worldview of a zero sum contest between capital and labor is a populist fiction.

erkt 4/13/2025|||
Manufacturing doesn’t have to equate to sweat shops. It’s hard to take your argument seriously when your judgement is undermined by such fallacy.

We have problems with housing affordability because asset values inflate inverse to the devaluation of the dollar. The dollar is deflating because a service economy is not as sustainable as a manufacturing economy. This is particularly pronounced when we all see the labor value of intelligent workers decreasing at a precipitous rate due to AI.

HaZeust 4/14/2025|||
>"Manufacturing doesn’t have to equate to sweat shops. It’s hard to take your argument seriously when your judgement is undermined by such fallacy."

You're right; humans will be as uninvolved as possible in the next domestic sweat shop lines. Astute observation!

Yeul 4/13/2025||||
Tech bros who are frustrated with their job fantasizing about doing "real work".

An entire generation has grown up without assembly lines so it is easy to mystify it. People in Vietnam don't enjoy making Nikes but it is better than what came before: subsistence farming. But the Vietnamese factory worker trying to send their kids to university too.

Amezarak 4/13/2025|||
Manufacturing employment plummeted in the US after the 90s.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/manemp

Lots of people remember the 80s and 90s being better times with quality manufacturing employment without romanticizing the past. To this day multiples of the “information” sector are employed in US manufacturing.

Neonlicht 4/13/2025|||
People remember those days because the Republicans hadn't destroyed trade unions and the pension system yet.
Amezarak 4/13/2025||
We can agree unions should be stronger, but union jobs in America cannot compete with nonunion much cheaper labor in other countries. If you have free trade and zero Republicans the same thing happens. If the jobs go away the union doesn’t matter. That’s why the unions consistently lobbied against NAFTA, the WTO, etc.

I’m actually not even sure what specific labor law changes you could blame that on. Clinton was running the show in the 90s, and I don’t recall any big union busting under Bush, whatever else might be said of him.

disgruntledphd2 4/14/2025||
> We can agree unions should be stronger, but union jobs in America cannot compete with nonunion much cheaper labor in other countries.

I mean, they can, if you put up trade barriers or introduce capital controls. It's not a coincidence that after capital controls were removed, basically any manufacturing that could, fled America. And I (and my family) in Ireland were massive, massive beneficiaries of this!

Like, you can definitely make the argument that globalisation has benefited the world overall, while being bad for a bunch of people in the developed countries. And it's not a bad argument.

But unfortunately for all of the people who think globalisation is great, the votes of all the people who disagree count just as much as yours, and it looks like they're willing to vote for anyone who even hints at promising to fix this.

> Clinton was running the show in the 90s,

He introduced NAFTA, which made it profitable for much US manufacturing to move to Canada/Mexico. Bush let China into the WTO (or was that Clinton too?).

dzonga 4/14/2025|||
thanks for highlighting this. to those unaware the US currently employs 20M people in manufacturing while Information is only 3M.

so yeah even with a 'non-existent' manufacturing sector it has been able to provide more jobs than so called technology industry.

collingreen 4/13/2025||||
Perhaps this is the inevitable cycle of prosperity? We see this in so many facets now as generations progress - your comment reminds me of antivax social media people who haven't ever seen anyone more sick than a cold or tech bros thinking a trade job would be better since it might magically be "more rewarding" (I'm guilty of this!) with no regard for how much privilege is inherent in sitting at a desk all day and getting paid to think.

Like the stereotypical kid who grew up rich not understanding the value of hard work maybe the inevitable result of easy and safe living is a blind spot so big we're doomed to fall back down as a society and start over again and again.

geysersam 4/13/2025|||
Sure, anyone not agreeing perfectly with the current system of global trade is part of the "new right"... Another way to look at it: globalisation weakens democratic control over the economy and undermines unions. Is that not a problem in your opinion?
intended 4/14/2025|||
Globalisation Also creates markets for the more advanced goods and services to be sold.

If we are going to wade into the deep waters of international trade, then you can’t look only at america or American workers without getting blind sided constantly.

At the depth you are talking - globalization has created more nations than anything else.

The undermining of democracy came with increased deregulation and increased lobbying and wealth concentration.

energy123 4/13/2025|||
That's a strawman. What I was doing was pointing out the appeal to the aesthetics of work and associated buzzwords ("capital"), noting the absence of any actual economy policy that will deliver tangible benefits to existing people. It's the same old populist shtick that we've seen in countless fascist and communist regimes where certain modes of work are fetishized and life is regimented around that prescription by a central authority, in the pursuit of a subjective notion of pure work. The giveaway is the attempted justification of an economic policy in service of a nebulous "cultural" impact.
geysersam 4/13/2025||
> It's the same old populist shtick that we've seen in countless fascist and communist regimes where certain modes of work are fetishized and life is regimented around that prescription by a central authority

> Frankly, no, sweatshops are not important to the cultural fabric of a country.

And that's not a strawman?

specialist 4/14/2025|||
What role does governmental industrial policy have your in thesis?
bflesch 4/14/2025||
IMO industrial policy is the way to mitigate risks of war or extortion vis-a-vis a specific trading partner. Only once this safety criteria is fulfilled, politicians can think about tackling other issues with industrial policy - and unfortunately these further initiatives often fail or have unintended second-order effects (e.g. we want Intel chip factory in Germany).

My understanding is that due to human nature wars mostly start due to religious or extremist views of individuals leading a nation. Such a risk of your trade partner invading you because they don't like your skin color can be hardly formalized in an economic theory (maybe there exists one already, idk).

So role of industrial policy would be to ensure that a certain balance is kept with regards to creating dependencies to other nations, which could be abused in case of war.

Famous negative examples of failed industrial policy for Germany would be the dependence on gas mostly from russia and the dependence on oil mostly from middle east.

Another example would be the agricultural subsidies to ensure all citizens can be fed even when other nations would not export any food. A current example in Germany would be the production of "German steel" using fossil energy instead of production of CO2-neutral swedish steel. As Germany is part of EU, this is a conflicting view: We can't on one side ask for more trade and integration of supply chains between democratic EU countries, but on the other side assume that Sweden will deny steel exports to us when we'd need it.

Producing steel in Germany with fossil energy instead of doing it in Sweden with hydroelectric power is both more expensive and has more negative externalities (CO2 emissions due to use of fossil fuels). Therefore such industrial policy reduces welfare that would otherwise be available for German people.

energy123 4/13/2025||||
> And surely in order to leverage comparative advantage, an economy would need to know how good they would be at producing every possible good.

Comparative advantage is an emergent property of trade that occurs naturally, it is the default state of being and can only be undermined by government policy.

You benefit from comparative advantage when you buy bread from the bakery instead of spending 2 hours a day baking your own bread.

Imagine how much poorer you'd be if the government put a large tax on you buying bread to force you to bake it yourself, in the name of self-sufficiency.

That's what's happening with these blanket tariffs, instead of targeting only critical defense manufacturing, Trump also wants t-shirt sweatshops to magically come back to the US despite only 4% unemployment. It's rank foolishness.

rainsford 4/13/2025||||
The alternative to comparative advantage is that there exist countries where it's economically optimal for them to produce every single possible good with finite resources taking into account the opportunity cost of producing one good over another. Or to put it another way, in a world where comparative advantage doesn't exist, the country in question must have the same economic outcome for any good they produce, and that seems ludicrously implausible to me.
jbs789 4/13/2025||||
Comparative advantage makes sense, with a national security overlay. That’s where I’ve landed anyway, and is a very simple explanation for all the more complex perspectives out there.
tim333 4/13/2025||||
>Do you really believe in the comparative advantage argument though? Surely it’s only true if comparative advantage is fixed over time.

It's mostly not that complicated. Ecuador is better at bananas, the US is better at software so they trade. And similar stuff.

rainsford 4/13/2025||
It's even simpler than that. Ecuador doesn't even need to be better than the US at growing bananas, they just need to be better at growing bananas than the US is at developing software relative to their banana growing abilities.

My favorite example is from an economics class quite a few years ago now. Michael Jordon is super efficient at making money playing basketball (told you it was a while ago). But he's also pretty good at mowing his lawn, since he's tall and athletic. But since he's way better at playing basketball, it makes sense for him to focus on basketball and paying some kid to mow his lawn, even though the kid is way less efficient at mowing lawns.

The US is way more advanced than Ecuador, and could presumably develop some hyper efficient banana greenhouse using genetic engineering and AI or whatever. But Ecuador is still pretty good at growing bananas and the US is much better at developing software, so buying bananas from Ecuador and putting the AI greenhouse resources into developing software instead makes way more sense.

lukas099 4/13/2025||||
> In order to leverage comparative advantage, an economy would need to know how good they would be at producing every possible good.

Maybe I'm not getting what you're saying, but I don't think so. The point of comparative advantage is that even if country A is better at making guns and butter than B, A is better off only making guns or butter and trading to B for the other.

pdfernhout 4/13/2025|||
To support your point, consider the long list of assumptions underlying "Comparative Advantage", such as at: https://efinancemanagement.com/international-financial-manag...

A key assumption being: "Factors of production are fully employed in both the countries. ... The theory assumes full employment. However, every economy has an existence of underemployment."

Another key assumption is "The labor cost determines the price of the two commodities. ... The theory only considers labor costs and neglects all non-labor costs involved in the production of the commodities."

One assumption not listed there is an implicit assumption as in much of economics of infinite demand for anything and no law of diminishing-to-negative returns when considering the environmental and psychological costs of consumption.

So, if you have unemployment in the producer country like China (meaning, there is no reason for them to limit their production) along with a significant capital investment in production infrastructure (like in the Shenzhen region for electronics), and you have limited demand in the consumer country like the USA (meaning, only so much can be sold there at any specific time), then the country which can produce stuff more cheaply will just flood the market of the other country for all goods in question -- even if the consumer country could in theory produce one of the goods at higher costs (or lower quality). Of course, there may eventually be macroeconomic issues like balance of trade issues and countries unable to pay for more goods (which the USA has avoided to date because the US dollar is the refactor global currency backed by the USA's global policing role for decades as a defacto empire). But even if labor in the consumer country like the USA is free, given realistically a lot of cost related to equipment and energy (and increasingly AI and robotics) and more nebulous things like supply chain integration and a can-do attitude, the consumer country may not be able to compete on price and quality of finished products from the more materially productive economy.

Tangential, but "Humans Need Not Apply" makes a good argument when they suggest that horses are essentially obsolete in modern industry (in the same way people may be soon). It's not that you sometimes use horses to any great degree in modern manufacturing (whereas before they pulled carts and turned machines) -- it is that for almost any industrial task horses are more trouble than they are worth now in terms of cost and reliability compared to electric motors or diesel engines and so on.

An economic theory like "Comparative Advantage" that entirely emphasizes labor costs is increasingly obsolete if human labor is less and less a major factor of production. The theory assumes a country will always have people doing something productive, but that is like saying we should bring horses back into factories when robots are generally more reliable. If people are not skillful with access to tools and capital and don't have a can-do attitude, then they will just suffer economically (unless protected somehow) No doubt there are special cases where horses are still useful in production or transport like how mules were used recently to get supplies into hurricane damaged North Carolina, but they are rare as long as the modern industrial system and its surrounding infrastructure functions well. Similarly, there may still be human roles in production, but they will continue to diminish. In 2010, I put together some options for dealing with this situation, available here: https://pdfernhout.net/beyond-a-jobless-recovery-knol.html

Aurornis 4/13/2025|||
> While a universal tariff with no exceptions incentivizes domestic manufacturing

Not really. Efficient manufacturing requires access to a lot of different inputs from all over, from the machines that make things to the raw materials.

Putting tariffs on everything only incentivizes companies to move to a location where they can freely buy what they need and manufacture it for the world.

The US is not the only consumer of most manufactured goods. Making them in a country with cheap labor and no extra import tariffs makes more sense than in a country where everything is under tariffs

Renaud 4/13/2025|||
Universal import taxes on everything make no sense.

If you want to protect strategic production, you apply selective tariffs to support that local production while ensuring it can ramp up and import what it needs until it becomes self-sufficient.

Most countries, the US included, have used selective tariffs for this purpose. Applying a blanket tax on every type of import just increases inflation, as you can't possibly manufacture everything locally. For many products—especially cheap ones that were outsourced to China—there's no way to produce them cheaply enough for your internal market to absorb all production.

And you can't export them either, because their higher production cost makes them uncompetitive compared to cheaper alternatives from low-cost countries.

The secondary effects of import taxes are wide-ranging: they help when applied selectively and carefully; they don’t when applied capriciously and without thought.

The mere fact that high taxes were slapped on phone imports so "phones could be made in the US," only to backtrack mere days later, demonstrates that this is either the work of an insanely bright economist nobody understands, the scheme of a grifter aiming to benefit personally, or the capriciousness of a borderline dementia patient who cannot act rationally.

FooBarBizBazz 4/13/2025|||
Really the way to do it, AFAIK (say, per How Asia Works), is to apply selective subsidies, not tariffs, and to subject the subsidized industries to substantial export discipline. That's what gets you South Korean world-beaters. Autarkic tariffs just get you Indian industry, where consumers have learned that the few goods marked "export quality" are superior.

And, I don't want to be partisan about this stuff, but, that's basically what "Bidenonics" was trying to do, in a small way: Subsidize a few industries like semiconductors and batteries and solar panels, that were deemed strategically important.

Whether the US was ever going to be as serious as South Korea or Japan about this remained to be seen. Frequently the subsidies seem to be handed out and then nothing happens (e.g., "Gigafactory" in Buffalo, NY).

klooney 4/13/2025|||
Korea used to have substantial auto tariffs. Every nation with an auto industry does.

Tariffs are/can be effective, you're just not supposed to tariffs everything on a whim.

Yeul 4/13/2025|||
You are advocating a stronger government when the GOP basically wants to eliminate it...
2muchcoffeeman 4/13/2025||||
Would it make sense if you wanted to engage in some insider trading and short everything?
DonHopkins 4/13/2025|||
Why not two out of three?
quasse 4/13/2025|||
Universal tariffs with no exception don't even incentivize domestic manufacturing when it cuts local manufacturers off from an outside market that's bigger than the domestic one.

My company manufactures equipment in North America, with the most expensive input coming domestically from Ohio. Guess what though? Retaliatory tariffs from the global community means that the most rational course of action is now to move that manufacturing *out of the US* so that we can sell to the global market without penalty.

Sorry Ohio, but Mexico is currently *not* engaged in a trade war with Canada and half the EU so the rational decision for a company who wants to sell in those markets is to divest from the US.

pbasista 4/13/2025||
> engaged in a trade war with ... half the EU

That is generally not possible. All EU countries share a common trade policy. Another country can either be in a trade war with the entire EU or with none of the EU.

According to the Wikipedia [0], The EU member states delegate authority to the European Commission to negotiate their external trade relations.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Commercial_Policy_(EU)

jopsen 4/12/2025|||
Even universal tariffs with no exceptions is a problem.

Many things cross US/Canada/Mexico border in the process being manufactured. And tariffs will stack up.

Many advanced products (tech/chip, etc) are not entirely made in any single place. Some stuff is imported, and some is exported again, and tariffing the world, will also make the world tariff you.

I think this is all around bad. Best case scenario the US has elected a president who decided to burn all political capital, alliances and credibility in search of a slightly better deal.

Doing this sort maximum pressure economic extortion style policies, *might* getter you a slightly better deal. But at what cost?

Can EU countries buy US military equipment, when it turns out that the US will withhold support for equipment we've bought and paid for, in order to pressure a democracy, fighting for its existence, into surrender.

Trump may get a win in the headlines, because everyone thinks he'll go away if he get a win.

randunel 4/13/2025|||
> Can EU countries buy US military equipment, when it turns out that the US will withhold support for equipment we've bought and paid for, in order to pressure a democracy, fighting for its existence, into surrender.

Why would anyone buy US military equipment that's either "10%" handicapped on purpose, or remotely disabled whenever the US changes its feelings about the users of said military equipment?

prawn 4/13/2025|||
There have been many headlines/stories about this in Australia where we have a submarine deal within the AUKUS alliance.
belter 4/13/2025|||
"“We like to tone them down about 10 percent, which probably makes sense because someday maybe they’re not our allies, right?”"

   - Trump
DonHopkins 4/13/2025|||
He's already gotten what he wanted from it and bragged about it: so many leaders of different countries calling up and kissing his ass. He's certainly not going to give any of them what they wanted, and now they all have the taste of his ass in their mouths. At least they have something in common with Elon Musk, now.
ben_w 4/13/2025|||
There's many sayings about diplomacy, though I understand the reality is much more mundane.

One that comes to mind is "a diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that you actually look forward to the trip" — like all good quotes, attributed to a wide variety of famous people.

Competent governments send arse kissers to those who need pampering, and send blunt to those who need to see bluntness. But (in a competent government) these things are uncorrelated with the actual negotiation position — "speak softly and carry a big stick" etc.

Trump being bellicose to everyone at the same time is a sign of his own incompetence.

FranzFerdiNaN 4/13/2025||||
I belief his story about dozens of countries calling him about as much as his story of him taking a cognitive test and having every single answer correct. Or his doctors statement that said that there has never been a healthier president than Trump.
monkeyfun 4/13/2025|||
Yeah, this is a man who literally says he has the greatest memory in human history but then constantly says he can't remember stuff a day or two later or coincidentally was living under a rock and has no idea what's going on in his cabinet.
outer_web 4/13/2025|||
> Men came to me with tears in their eyes, big men, and said "sir..."
viraptor 4/13/2025|||
Worth looking at the actual deals. The initial talks with Canada and Mexico resulted in reported "deals" and "wins" that were actually just confirmations that the deals negotiated under previous administration are in fact happening.
jijijijij 4/12/2025|||
> Your computer parts factory likely runs using a large amount of imported raw materials, imported machines, and imported tooling, and there are no tariff exemptions for those broad categories… so you’re screwed.

All the planning charts and demolition orders have been on display at your local 24/7 news feed for more than eight years, so there’s no point in acting surprised about it. You’ve had plenty of time to lodge any bribe worth the president's time and it’s far too late to start making a fuss about it now. Oh, for heaven’s sake, Americans, President Trump did a crypto scam on his supporters before being sworn in, you know. I’m sorry, but if you can’t be bothered to take an interest in local affairs, that’s your own lookout.

I've no sympathy at all.

jiggawatts 4/13/2025|||
> crypto scam on his supporters

It absolutely blow my mind that that was just "Friday", and not the biggest scandal in Western political history.

"It's just Trump being Trump, move on, move on, nothing to see here, no consequences for anyone..."

alabastervlog 4/13/2025|||
The speed with which we went from “out-of-context recording of a ‘yeaaaaaah!’ can end your presidential campaign” to “suggesting your supporters shoot your opponent if she wins doesn’t mean you can’t be president… twice” was incredibly quick.
gsanderson 4/13/2025||||
Thought I'd check to see how his memecoin is currently doing. It's exactly as expected.

I wonder how many of his supporters bought at $70 ...

jijijijij 4/13/2025|||
I honestly have a hard time coping with it. No joke. It's revolting, how that wasn't the end. Right after the Hawk Tuah girl was burnt at the stakes for the same stunt, too.

It's not even that it is pure evil and predatory, it's the aesthetics of it... It tainted civilization, at the very least America! It's so, so pathetic and cringe. Unbearably distasteful and undignified. Too much cringe.

The only thing topping this, was the president of the United States selling cars in front of the white house, a few weeks later. I can't.

Man, imagine an alien patrol passing that Tesla (a billionaire's fucking car in space as a beacon of Earth life's legacy, honestly makes wanna puke) and then learning about the state of things here. I feel embarrassed to the core living in this period of time. I'd rather shit my pants on live TV.

I crave the cleansing heat and certainty of thermonuclear warheads. Shoot these fucker with a bullet of frozen sewage and then sterilize this place for we all sinned collectively. Send some tardigrades to Mars and hope for something better, but turn off the lights on Earth.

Tainted.

cwillu 4/13/2025||
> It tainted civilization, at the very least America!

I regret to inform you that america is not and has never been a unique snowflake. An important player in the world, sure, but one that has long been obsessed with the notion that it is special in some way, and it's just not true.

Every country is at risk of going batshit crazy, and it's always been disturbing how americans seem the truly believe they are immune, because when that belief gets challenged…

jijijijij 4/13/2025||
FYI: I am not American. I feel Fremdscham, but the transitive relation is implied in my comment. Politicians in my country are just as corrupt (e.g. Friedrich Merz doing marketing and legislative favors for McDonalds), but for the plurality of our political system, they still have to act decent to some degree. For now.

There is another quality to what's happening in America right now. I can only explain the things Trump did as sadistic demonstrations of power. I bet he actually gets hard knowing half the country will literally eat his shit, that he actually can do anything he wants. It's a theme, it's the grab 'em by the pussy mentality. I mean, let's go back: After winning the election, he showed his gratitude by humiliating (this is important) and exploiting his most loyal followers for everyone to see - and they took it, they danced, they remained at his side, they doubled down.

But whatever enabled his cult, this cancer is growing everywhere. You can't get through to significant portions of the population. Same in Germany. They've become immune to arguments, every opposition is anticipated by their conspiracies. They vote against their economic and social interests, they have detached from common ground. It's not protest, it's all got a fucked up life of its own. Brain worms, social contagion.

I think, if we want to survive this, short-lived social media has to go, and we have to take care of the boomer issue.

SpicyLemonZest 4/13/2025||
I want to be careful about how I frame this, because I don't want to make it sound like Trump or AfD don't have agency and can't be held responsible for their own actions. But if you're curious what it is that enabled both cults, the answer is pretty clear: there's significant popular demand for harsh immigration restrictions, and in much of the West only crazy far-right parties are willing to listen to it. The Danish political establishment successfully defused the far right by moderating heavily on immigration, and I don't think it's too late for other countries to accomplish the same.
jijijijij 4/13/2025||
No.

Can't speak for the US, but in Germany immigration is not the problem they make it out to be, but one that is propped up as a scapegoat. You presume the people's demand here are based in reasonable distress, when really it's not. Or rather it's not attributed correctly. Stats don't support it, proposed solutions are not able to resolve it. In particular the AfD has no actual answers for anything. Their "politics" is arbitrary outrage and evidently they get sponsored by Russia, favored by platform owners and spin doctors like Musk. German intelligence agencies are investigating Russia's involvement in recent attacks in Germany. The AfD's role is destabilization and it's working.

The topic is not driven by actual exposure. This is clearly evident when you look at voting patterns. In places where you are the most likely to have contact with immigrants right-wing populists are the least successful and vice versa. Compare recent car attacks by islamist and neonazi motivated perpetrators. There is a massive distortion in media coverage.

I absolutely do not accept throwing anyone under the bus just to make the mob happy. Not immigrants, not women, not trans people. Sorry, but it's fucking degenerated and vile to suggest this as acceptable sacrifice. Every human deserves basic rights, due process and life in dignity. Look what they are cheering for in the US at the moment. Disinformation fueled hatred is not something to make compromises with as a civilized person.

The actual, but occult distress all people feel comes from economic erosion and ideological decay. Don't get me wrong, immigration isn't all bueno, but it's blown out of proportion. Rent, financial security, food, prosperity and self-efficacy. No politician is addressing that. We are by far not out of options to address the real issues of the country.

Why are you not advocating for addressing those?

SpicyLemonZest 4/13/2025||
I do advocate for addressing those, and I don't support throwing anyone under the bus. That's why I support moderating on immigration!

I agree with you that the anti-immigration movement doesn't make much sense to me, and I'm pretty confident that restricting immigration won't have the benefits its proponents claim. But the people who support it are genuine, as far as I can tell, and aren't going to just evaporate if rent decreases 10%. You can restrict immigration in a humane and respectful way, or you can follow the US and wait for xenophobic politicians to restrict immigration in an inhumane and disrespectful way; I don't think there's a third option.

jijijijij 4/13/2025||
> You can restrict immigration in a humane and respectful way

But this won't change anything, if their demand is not reasonable, or founded in truth to begin with. As I said, the AfD is most popular where there are no migrants at all. Lots of them feel their narrative validated when they see a brown person existing, see "Turkish" people living here for generations. The goalpost will always shift. You will never satisfy them, if their demands aren't anchored in reality. Again, this isn't fueled by exposure, but guided media outrage. There is a lot of conspiracy narratives mixed in as well. Talk to them, poke deeper than the concern trolling surface. You will encounter actual loony talk quite soon.

Apart from that, the biggest problems with these ideas are factors outside of Germany's control. E.g. if the origin country won't accept those immigrants back, you can't just air drop them there. Constitution, European law, human rights, Schengen... it's not really possible/worth it to do anything significant. It's all ever going to be for show.

SpicyLemonZest 4/14/2025||
On the contrary, demands that aren't founded in reality are often easier to satisfy, because pure rhetoric can shift the narrative much more easily than it can shift reality. Going back to Denmark again, if you pulled out charts and tried to track the objective quantity of immigration, you'd have a hard time identifying any policy shift. But as you say, immigration restrictionists were never looking at these charts in the first place. What matters politically is that the center-left PM goes around talking about how mass migration can be dangerous and the preservation of Danish culture is valuable.
jijijijij 4/14/2025||
Honestly, I get the impression your objective is to get a foot in the door for a certain idea, so to speak. Concern trolling ("just" preservation of Danish culture, huh?!), constructing a narrative where legitimizing neonazi parties through compromise is without alternative. You are not even addressing the foreign influence with these movements, the threat of social media reality distortion. Although, you tried to preemptively diffuse political association, I don't believe you are arguing in good faith. My answers are meant for everyone else reading, since I think it's wasted on you.

The CDU ran their election campaign on "anti-immigration" and continues to perform this rhetoric. So far the AfD poll numbers have been climbing, so ... your premise is evidently just wrong. This has been debated to death and I think for the general case, political science agrees that people will choose the original, when moderate parties pander to populist ones.

I am not familiar with the Danish situation. It's a very small country, with little land borders. Germany is large, bordering nine countries. It has a very high population density, large global economic influence, and a very unique history in regard to unification as German Reich, industrialization, revolution, fascist and communist dictatorships, war and division, and contemporary reunification. There is a very, very distinct geographical correlation with AfD voters and the former DDR territory.

Most people here are very fine with Germany's lack of nationalism and flag identity. We never really had a unified cultural or religious identity, since what's considered "Germany" has been quite radically changing in the last 300 years. (I think Rammstein's "Deutschland" does quite a good job expressing this feeling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeQM1c-XCDc)

You are also suspiciously discounting the impact these populist narratives and policies have on the lives of those matching the appearance of the scapegoat targets. Overall the neonazis' demands are not "just" a "sane" immigration policy, but open calls in particular for deportation, even deportation of German citizens. And they are also calling for de facto suppression of women's rights and LGBT lives all together. Oh, and what about the newly found Russia fandom and climate change denial? What's your take here?

Should we give in there as well? And if not, what's the difference?

SpicyLemonZest 4/16/2025||
If you want to win AfD voters, what you fundamentally have to do is present a vision that inspires AfD voters and convinces them to join your side.

Does this mean adopting AfD positions and trying to water them down a bit? Not necessarily, I agree that populist-lite is always going to lose to the original. But it means convincing immigration skeptics, gender traditionalists, perhaps even Russia fans and climate change deniers that they're allowed to be on your side. It's a hard but necessary line to straddle. I struggle with it myself - I spent a while over the weekend trying to find some good flyers to leave on people's Teslas, until I sat down and asked myself why none of the major protest organizers are encouraging this.

And once you start thinking within the realm of strategic moderation, immigration sticks out as an obvious compromise to make. Restricting immigration has few catastrophic downside risks, is easy to roll back if circumstances change (unless you do it in a catastrophic Trumpian way...), and unless your population pyramid is really unhealthy doesn't involve many tradeoffs with other policy areas.

chipotle_coyote 4/13/2025||||
[flagged]
soulofmischief 4/13/2025|||
Keep your sympathies, it's a narrow-minded view to assume all Americans wanted this. We didn't. And it's not like we had a real, ethical choice. The runner-up was going to be business as usual with foreign politics, enabling genocides and engaging in proxy wars and regime changes for the control of energy and resources. Many people did not believe either candidate was legitimate or shouldn't be in prison.
jijijijij 4/13/2025||
You missed the sarcasm, no worries. It's also referencing a scene in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_th...

soulofmischief 4/13/2025||
I caught the initial reference, it's one of my favorite books, it just sounded less and less sarcastic by the end of it, to me it came off as "The Heritage Foundation published Project 2025 for all to see months before you voted in the guy who put it into action". I apologize for assuming incorrectly.
beloch 4/13/2025|||
Factories, tooling, machinery, etc. must be amortized over a market and production run. If you're making toilet paper, the cost is relatively low and the market is huge. The TP you make today will still be good TP in a decade. No one toilet paper factory can serve the world, so you'll need many of them in many markets. The inputs can be found within the U.S.. Why not build one in the U.S.?

A factory that produces a specific model of phone is only going to be able to run for a few years before it needs to retool for a newer model. That means a huge investment goes into such a factory on a continual basis. If one factory can serve the entire world demand for that model, why build two?

If you're going to build just one factory, are you going to build it in a market that's walled off behind trade barriers, both for outputs and inputs? Only if that market is significantly bigger than the rest of the world combined. If the rest of the world is bigger, than you build outside the trade barriers and people inside of them will just have to pay more.

Tariff's might bring low-end, high-volume manufacturing back to the U.S.. Chip fabs, phone factories, or anything so high-end/low-volume that it must be amortized over a global market is not going to return to the U.S. because of tariff's. An administration that changes their minds every few hours only makes matters worse. Whether Trump has recognized this and is conceding defeat or he's bowing to pressure from companies like Apple is immaterial. That kind of factory is not coming to the U.S. anytime soon.

speleding 4/13/2025||
I agree with your general point, but I just read the book "Your life is manufactured" by Tim Minshall, in which he describes the production of toilet paper in detail and it's a surprising global industry. Wood pulp with the correct density comes from a few specific places on the globe (Scandinavia and South America apparently).
washadjeffmad 4/13/2025||
Those are big markets, but there are a lot of suitable softwoods for pulp production, farmed around the globe. Ideally, you want to use ones with good natural ratios of lignin to cellulose and hemicellulose (that's just to say, the constituents of biomass) to minimize processing and chemistry costs.
numpad0 4/13/2025|||
People don't want incentivization of American domestic manufacturing. That's where the fundamental disagreement is, after all. People don't have confidence in American products built on US soil by upper middle class Americans. It's going to take long to (re?)build trust to reverse that.
jmole 4/13/2025||
That’s ridiculous, there is plenty of confidence in US manufactured goods, the problem is that US manufacturers have impossible economics for anything that isn’t boutique or super high margin.

Need an impedance controlled 16 layer board for your fancy new military radar? No problem.

Need a basic 2 layer PCB for mass manufacture? No one in the US will make it at the price you need to be competitive.

mitthrowaway2 4/13/2025|||
"No problem"? It's not just that the prices are high; I can hardly get those guys to even answer the phone and give me a quote. I can get that board from China before I've gotten through to a local sales rep. Then when they do finally check their messages they want to fly out, meet me at my office, size up my operation and my budget, have a nice chat over dinner, and spend a few weeks pestering me with phone calls without ever getting down to business.
jpc0 4/13/2025||
You are pretty confused about why this is.

When the only market you ever had was high touch high cost low volume production then that is your default business model.

The biggest issue is that Trump is pushing tariffs without first ramping up local manufacturing, the type of manufacturing you are looking for isn't _currently_ being catered for in the US. It may in the future depending on how things pan out, the bet Trump is making is that it can happen, time will tell whether he is true.

I don't think it will generate jobs for local US manufacturing since the only way to compete with low cost of labour markets is to automate more than the low cost of labour country.

Business is reasonably good at filling whatever niche is willing to pay. So far the evidence is that Trump is willing to over commit and then backtrack. Having a negative outlook doesn't help anyone, think positive about your country and shift with the times.

kashunstva 4/13/2025|||
> think positive about your country and shift with the times

You know I tried to think positively about the United States; but darned if they don't keep doing negative things. Like appointing grossly incompetent people to head Federal departments. Like unlawfully and arbitrarily abducting people from the streets. Like extorting universities - ideally centres of free thought - over non-complying ideological positions. Like appearing to wreck the economy; but in ways that might just advantage himself and others in his circle. And the list goes on...

Some of us aren't "shifting with the times" because of an ethical line we won't cross. I grew up in the United States in the 1960's and had the constant drumbeat of "We're the world's melting pot," "We're the most benevolent spreader of democracy," "We're practically the only free country on the planet," "We are a country of laws." beat into us in public school. So it's a little jarring to see the wholesale abandonment of these values at the hands of someone who can barely string together a cogent sentence of more than, say, 4-5 non-repeating words and for whom "negotiating" means "win/lose", instead of "how can we meet our needs _and_ your needs, while creating more value in the process?"

Personally, I tried having a positive outlook; but saw this coming and left the U.S. just ahead of Trump 1.0.

This rant aside, it's incredibly wishful thinking to assume that one can undo in weeks or months, the complex web of international trade that has developed over decades because of the much-vaunted invisible hand of the market.

DonHopkins 4/13/2025|||
> think positive about your country

Like insisting the United States is 'rigged, crooked and evil'?

Trump insists the United States is 'rigged, crooked and evil':

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/maddowblog/trump-in...

>“The Witch Hunt continues, and after 6 years and millions of pages of documents, they’ve got nothing. If I had what Hunter and Joe had, it would be the Electric Chair. Our Country is Rigged, Crooked, and Evil — We must bring it back, and FAST. Next stop, Communism!”

So do you have any shred of evidence he's backtracking on all the racism and misogyny and homophobia and transphobia and cruelty and corruption he overcommitted on?

ascorbic 4/13/2025||||
And it's not just (or even mostly) costs. Nowhere in the world has supply chains anything like the Pearl River Delta. Need the most esoteric component imaginable? There's probably a factory down the road that can supply it, MOQ 1 or millions. It probably has a booth or distributor in Huaqiangbei where you can grab a few hundred today. The US has nothing to compare. US manufacturers can't build those sort of domestic supply chains at any cost.
vdqtp3 4/14/2025|||
I'm not sure I believe that, considering Schiit manages to do it for virtually every component of their product line other than wall warts. Are they two layer boards? Nah, I suspect they're 4 layer...but the prices aren't such that you can't survive on domestic manufacture. The prices are just higher than overseas - meaning that your profits are slightly lower, a situation current markets are not willing to accept.

Every time I've looked at local manufacturing, whether machine shops or anything else, the prices are higher than Ali but not unreasonable.

atoav 4/14/2025||
Relocating a factory to the US is expensive both as an investment and in its operation. Thst means you're thinking on a time horizon of decades not years. So if you're the CEO of a corp that is expected to be incentivized to move production to the US you would want to know how long those tariffs are going to last.

And lets face it, even if Trump instigated those tariffs via executive order at day 0 and didn't touch them till the expected end of his office that would not be enough incentive to relocate production. (1) because he could change the tariffs literally at any point (and he did just that) and (2) because any president after could just reverse the executive order immidately.

The erratic way Trump installed, modfied and communicated the tariffs run counter to the communicated purpose. E.g. why of all things excempt computers and electronic devices now from the tariffs? Why put a 10% tariff on goods from dirt-poor countries whose goods you already buy at an rate bordering on exploitation to your own benefit.

The way I see it, either he has no idea what the hell he is doing, or he is doing it for another purpose, e.g. insider trading. And I see myself exceedingly tired of journalists trying to read the tea leaves on a madman.

righthand 4/12/2025||
Why is no one highlighting how this is repeating history 8 years ago? I don’t get it, there’s this magical reporting gap where all of this is new strategy but it’s the exact same strategy. Why don’t we acknowledge this instead of searching for some new angle?

Here are a bunch of links from 2018/2019:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/13/apple-dodges-iphone-tariff-a...

https://www.kiplinger.com/slideshow/investing/t052-s001-14-s...

https://www.texastribune.org/2019/06/07/trump-tariff-threat-...

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/trumps-tariff-str...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-to-delay-tariff-increases...

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/19/hundreds-of-chines...

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/china-threatens-retalia...

https://www.cfr.org/blog/trumps-tariffs-are-killing-american...

SpicyLemonZest 4/12/2025||
The articles you've linked are about threats of 10% to 25% tariffs in the context of active trade negotiations between the US and China. Here, there's an actually imposed tariff of 145% and no talks at all as far as has been reported. It's not the same situation.
Aurornis 4/13/2025|||
Exactly. Anyone claiming it’s a repeat of history either doesn’t understand the history or doesn’t understand the current tariff proposal.

Order of magnitude difference. Hence the panic.

righthand 4/13/2025|||
It’s a different situation because the numbers are different even though so far the outcomes are the same. Am I reading that right?
kccqzy 4/13/2025|||
The outcomes are not the same because the numbers are not the same. A few days ago some Chinese journalists interviewed analysts familiar with CATL on batteries. At that time the tariff was 125%, and the analysts thought CATL could still eke out some profits: it's one of the very few Chinese businesses that can profit despite the 125% tariffs because China controls 75% of the world's battery anodes, 90% of cathodes and electrolytes. At 145% tariff CATL will be taking a loss and won't supply batteries at all.
righthand 4/13/2025||
How do you know the outcome? It’s not over yet.
SpicyLemonZest 4/13/2025||||
I'm not sure what you could possibly mean by "outcome" that doesn't include a 145% tax as an outcome. Perhaps you've fallen victim to the misinformation that the exporting country pays tariffs? That's not so; a 145% tariff on imports from China means that an American business importing $10,000 of stuff from China is required to pay the US government $14,500 on top. (Or they can not do the import and lay off everyone who was involved in processing and selling the stuff, as many China-dependent businesses will likely do over the next few weeks.)
righthand 4/13/2025||
Still have another 90+ days to figure this out. Perhaps you have fallen victim to believing each move is a different game than last time. To me it appears all someone did was shuffle the pieces.
SpicyLemonZest 4/14/2025||
We don't have another 90+ days. The 145% tariff is in effect right now. Whoever told you about the 90 days was intentionally trying to trick you; there are other tariffs that were delayed for 90 days, but the announcement delaying those tariffs made it extremely clear that this one was not delayed.
righthand 4/15/2025||
No one tricked me, you’re just jumping to conclusions based on what I wrote and what point you want to make.
jeromegv 4/13/2025|||
No it’s different because threats to get concessions, and actually enacting them to self sabotage your economy, it’s entirely different.
Aurornis 4/13/2025|||
> Why is no one highlighting how this is repeating history 8 years ago?

Because it’s not? The tariffs which are currently in effect or soon to go into effect are so far out of line with anything in modern history that there is no comparison.

The reason everyone is panicking is because people expected more of the same as 8 years ago but instead we got something massively worse, without a hint of cohesive strategy, and that has gone into effect rapidly and on the whims of one person who can’t even appear to get on the same page as his advisors.

Everyone knows there’s some element of bluffing going on, but that’s also the problem; This administration knows their bluffs would be transparent this time so they decided to go extra big to make a point. This becomes a problem for all of the people and companies whose business was suddenly upended by out of control tariffs with little time to prepare (compared to the smaller tariffs everyone was preparing for)

They’re banking on the damage either not being directly noticed by their voter base, or being able to convince their voter base that the damage is actually a good thing. I’m already seeing people applaud these actions as if they were narrowly targeted at cheap Chinese goods on Amazon or fast fashion, without realizing how much of the inputs to our economy go through one of the countries with tariffs ranging from 25-145%.

Some people are determined to adopt contrarian positions and act like they’re above it all, but the people who have to deal with the consequences of this stuff (myself included) are taking a lot of damage from these supposedly no big deal negotiations. It’s not being handled well. Even if they were to disappear tomorrow, a lot of damage has been done and they’re hoping people like you will find a way to rationalize it away as not a big deal

AstralStorm 4/13/2025|||
For some reason, it stinks of a none too smart AI making economic decisions without taking psychology or a bunch of real life costs into account.

It is a losing strategy.

anon-3988 4/14/2025||||
> They’re banking on the damage either not being directly noticed by their voter base, or being able to convince their voter base that the damage is actually a good thing.

Are we really still at the stage where we seriously think this is how people vote? Its not. You just need to energize enough people in your sufficiently big enough bubble to believe in a cause and make sure that the other side thinks "both sides are bad".

Terr_ 4/13/2025||||
> without a hint of cohesive strategy

It's all quite cohesive once one stops the futile search for an underlying strategy that enriches america, and instead looks for evidence of a strategy that enriches Trump.

"These insects infected with cordyceps show no hint of a cohesive strategy for staying alive..."

jajko 4/13/2025||||
Lol there was no 'cohesive strategy' 8 years ago, what the heck you wtite about. You suffer some memory loss?

He was chaotic, he was doing ego polishing reality show from day 1. The only difference was a 'barrier of sanity' that people around him formed, dampening his bipolar outbursts into more reasonable actions (or lack of thereof, often without his knowledge). He eventually fired all of them, forgot that part?

Now he has just pure yes men around him, licking his ass and patiently waiting for him to die or get killed (vance has a look and behavior of patient calculating sociopath for example, he may be much worse if given chance)

Aurornis 4/13/2025|||
I think you misunderstood my comment as being pro-Trump in some way, but it absolutely was not. I was explaining why this round of tariffs is not a repeat of 8 years ago, it’s much worse. That’s it.

> what the heck you wtite about. You suffer some memory loss?

> licking his ass and patiently waiting for him to die or

I can see why political threads on HN are flagged away so aggressively. It’s hard to want to even try to have a conversation when this is the level of discourse getting upvoted.

DonHopkins 4/13/2025|||
> people expected more of the same as 8 years ago

Only ignorant close minded gullible people who refused to listen to all the experts and intelligent people paying attention, who have all now been totally vindicated, after warning about it at the top of their lungs, and who are now fully entitled to say "I TOLD YOU SO".

Expert Comment: What might President Trump’s second term mean for the world?

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2025-02-05-expert-comment-what-mig...

What to expect from Trump’s second term: more erratic, darker, and more dangerous:

https://thebulletin.org/2024/11/what-to-expect-from-trumps-s...

Accelerated transgressions in the second Trump presidency:

https://brightlinewatch.org/accelerated-transgressions-in-th...

Trump’s second term could bring chaos around the world. Will it work?

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/09/world/analysis-trump-seco...

Donald Trump’s Revenge: The former President will return to the White House older, less inhibited, and far more dangerous than ever before:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-lede/donald-trump-wins-a-...

Why the worst president ever will be even worse in a second term: I suppose some observers might think Donald Trump’s first term represented rock bottom. My advice for those thinking along those lines: Just wait:

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/maddowblog/worst-pr...

What the world thinks of Trump’s return to the US presidency:

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/what-t...

How bad could a second Trump presidency get? The damage to America’s economy, institutions and the world would be huge:

https://www.economist.com/briefing/2024/10/31/how-bad-could-...

What Will Happen to America if Trump Wins Again? Experts Helped Us Game It Out:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/magazine/2022/10/10/country-a...

Trump presidency could damage economy if he weakens democracy, experts say: Trump has threatened to prosecute political rivals, including Kamala Harris:

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-presidency-damage-econ...

What could Trump's second term bring? Deportations, tariffs, Jan. 6 pardons and more:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/second-trump-presidency-implica...

I’m an Economist: Here Are My Predictions for Inflation If Trump Wins:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/m-economist-predictions-infla...

Trump’s economic plans would worsen inflation, experts say: They fear that Trump's proposals would “reignite’’ inflation, which has plummeted since peaking at 9.1% in 2022 and is nearly back to the Fed’s 2% target:

https://whyy.org/articles/trump-economic-plan-worsen-inflati...

Neonlicht 4/13/2025||
Thank you it seems everyone has already forgotten project 2025.

Look I don't want to be too harsh on Americans nobody took the Nazis seriously when they had already written a book about how they saw the world... But none of this is shocking.

There is an ideology behind what Trump is doing and he never hid it from the world.

mulmen 4/13/2025||
As an American please be careful blaming all of us for this. Less than 1 in 4 Americans voted for Trump. It doesn’t mean you need to buy an F-150 but please separate the concept of the American people from the GOP voter base. The complexities of our electoral system and our unique racist history made this very hard to avoid. Please don’t assume Americans in general wanted this or are ok with it.

> nobody took the Nazis seriously when they had already written a book about how they saw the world.

This is completely false. A cursory internet search will find many examples. Churchill was a vocal opponent of the Nazis in the 1930s.

> But none of this is shocking.

Right. Nobody who was paying attention is shocked. This includes many Americans.

_Tev 4/15/2025||
> Less than 1 in 4 Americans voted for Trump

Yea and it seems the 75% of population cannot do anything about Trump now.

I wonder when people will wake up to the fact that USA does not actually have a democracy.

standardUser 4/12/2025|||
The tariffs from 8 years ago were a seemingly rational policy and were largely upheld by the Biden administration.

These tariffs look designed to rapidly eject the US from the global economic order and hand over the reins to China. Though saying they were "designed" at all seems extravagantly generous.

tmountain 4/13/2025|||
I will be surprised if the dollar retains its status as the world’s reserve currency by the end of this administration.
anon-3988 4/14/2025||||
Another reason why tariffs are upheld is that its very hard to remove them. The moment you add them, you now creates industries and jobs that assume those tariffs existed.

Which is to say, if this ridiculous tariffs goes on for long enough, its going to be there forever. So you guys are, ehem, fucked.

righthand 4/13/2025|||
Only on China, the rest were largely removed.
bayarearefugee 4/13/2025||
> Only on China, the rest were largely removed.

No they weren't. They were changed to 10%. Prior to all of this the average was 2.5%. So that's not a removal at all, but a rather large average increase even if you exclude the omglol China rate.

Aurornis 4/13/2025|||
> No they weren't. They were changed to 10%

Sadly that’s not even true. We still have excessively high tariffs on many shipments from Mexico and Canada. 25% for non-USMCA goods.

China, Canada, and Mexico are our 3 largest trading partners. The tariffs levied on them have an outsized effect on net tariff rates.

polycaster 4/13/2025|||
Also suspended is not removed.

I assume there is some kind of divide and conquer going on.

n1b0m 4/13/2025|||
“Trump’s first term would probably have seen a version of this week’s debacle if he had chosen different advisers, and if he had not later been knocked off course by Covid.

For the first two years of his first term, in 2017-18, his instincts were largely kept in check by his economic adviser Gary Cohn, a former chief operating officer at Goldman Sachs, who dampened Trump’s determination to use tariffs to end trade deficits.“

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/12/did-trump-tari...

djeastm 4/12/2025|||
Wow you had these at-the-ready, didn't you. Thanks.

*I've read through a few of these and it seems like perhaps Trump still thinks it's 2018/19, but China's position has only gotten stronger.

It seems the attempt to jack up tariffs so high this time was a bluff to "show" how strong we can be, but he miscalculated on how shaky the stock/bond markets actually currently are and the financial players know we're not in a position to go it alone.

And China knows this and they know they can wait us out. I believe it will be considered a misstep, at best and a catastrophe at worst.

righthand 4/13/2025||
I did not have them at the ready but a Kagi News search with a date range allowed me to pull from quite a selection that seemed relevant to my point.
melagonster 4/13/2025|||
Because last time the US government required alliances to participate in the trade war. Maybe it is not rational, but the US is the leader, so most countries just thought, 'Ok, if you really need it...'. But this time, the trade war is against the whole world. Everyone is confused.
paganel 4/13/2025||
> But this time, the trade war is against the whole world.

Reminds me of this excellent Norm Macdonald sketch [1] on Germany of which I've learned only recently.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXdtafGdIVM

1oooqooq 4/13/2025|||
the most important tidbit

> Apple already pays tariffs on products including the Apple Watch and AirPods, but hasn't raised its prices in the United States.

so, they fear tariffs because their price is already at the highest their products would sell? that's an interesting point most people don't understand. the tariffs were only 15% then, but still interesting to see how it played out.

refurb 4/13/2025||
[flagged]
walterbell 4/12/2025||
Per Bloomberg, 20% fentanyl tariff on China still applies and these categories may yet receive their own unique tariff, https://archive.is/jKupW

The exemption categories include components and assembled products, https://content.govdelivery.com/bulletins/gd/USDHSCBP-3db9e5...

  8471       ADP (Automatic Data Processing) Machines: PCs, servers, terminals.
  8473.30    Parts for ADPs: keyboards, peripherals, printers.
  8486       Machines for producing semiconductors & ICs: wafer fab, lithography.
  8517.13    Mobile phones and smartphones.
  8517.62    Radios, router, modems.
  8523.51    Radio/TV broadcasting equipment.
  8524       2-way radios.
  8528.52    Computer monitors and projectors (no TVs).

  8541.10    Diodes, transistors and similar electronic components
  8541.21    LEDs
  8541.29    Photodiodes and non-LED diodes
  8541.30    Transistors
  8541.49.10 Other semiconductors that emit light
  8541.49.70 Optoelectronics: light sensors, solar cells
  8541.49.80 Photoresistors
  8541.49.95 Other semiconductor devices
  8541.51.00 LEDs for displays
  8541.59.00 Other specialized semiconductor devices
  8541.90.00 Semiconductor parts: interconnects, packaging, assembly
  8542       Electronic ICs
Industrial-scale workarounds were developed for previous tariffs, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43652823. Such loopholes will need to be addressed in any new trade agreements.
codedokode 4/12/2025|
> 8486 Machines for producing semiconductors & ICs: wafer fab, lithography.

Does US buy them from China too?

Aurornis 4/13/2025|||
Not sure specifically, but most common chips aren’t fabbed on processes that require cutting edge machines like you hear about for nVidia or iPhone chips.

All of the little chips in everything else are fabricated on much simpler processes that require much less complex machinery.

walterbell 4/12/2025|||
Unlikely. The exclusions above are for reciprocal tariffs from all countries, i.e.

  China        0% reciprocal + 20% (fentanyl) + 2018-2024 rates
  non-China    0% reciprocal
grey-area 4/13/2025||
Reciprocal is inaccurate, you should stop using that term - this label was chosen to obfuscate what is going on and confuse those who don't know better.
PoignardAzur 4/13/2025|||
I'm told it was chosen because the executive only has the power to impose tariffs without legislative approval if they're reciprocal.
cranium 4/13/2025||
The 145% tariff is so absurd I wouldn't be surprised to see cheap chips glued to the item to exploit the exceptions.

"Oh yeah, that's not a shoe: it's the protective case for an ESP32 WiFi router".

SOLAR_FIELDS 4/13/2025||
For those who think this is ridiculous, this happens already on a regular basis with batteries to get around the regulations and fees around shipping them. Instead of getting the battery in the mail you’ll get a cheap flashlight in the mail with a battery inside it.
CSMastermind 4/13/2025|||
Famously, people got in trouble for importing "ice tea mix" to get around sugar tariffs.
ignoramous 4/13/2025|||
> Instead of getting the battery in the mail you'll get a cheap flashlight in the mail with a battery inside it.

Much like those Wrapper upstarts, then?

ben_w 4/13/2025|||
Perhaps one could say they are "Smart shoes": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DonAdams.jpg
re-thc 4/13/2025||
IoT to make a comeback?
alistairSH 4/13/2025|||
Sort of the inverse, but didn’t Ford import Turkish-built Transit Connect vans with full interiors, only to strip those out upon arrival in Baltimore, as a means of skirting the Chicken Tax?
tim333 4/13/2025||
Seems something like that. I googled it to see what chickens had to do with transits.

>The "Chicken Tax" is a 25% tariff on light trucks imported to the United States, established in 1964 by President Lyndon B. Johnson. This tariff was a retaliatory measure against European countries, including France and West Germany, which had imposed tariffs on U.S. chicken exports.

This whole business gets rather silly. Viva free trade.

https://www.carscoops.com/2024/03/ford-pays-u-s-365-million-...

xbmcuser 4/13/2025|||
The moment they put tariffs I was thinking they just supercharged smuggling and illegal border crossing with multi trillion dollar market.
__s 4/13/2025|||
Nathan Fielder was ahead of things calling smoke detectors instruments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x87jemLFyo
dhx 4/12/2025||
Exempt items are:

8471: Computers.

8473.30: Computer parts.

8486: Semiconductor manufacturing equipment.

8517.13.00: Smartphones.

8517.62.00: Network equipment.

8523.51.00: Solid state media.

8524 and 8528.52.00: Computer displays.

8541.* (with some subheadings excluded): Semiconductor components EXCEPT LEDs, photovoltaic components, piezoelectric crystals).

8542: Integrated circuits.

The 8541.* category exclusions are interesting. Does the US self-produce all required quantities of LEDs and piezoelectric crystals and doesn't need to import those? Is the exception on photovoltaic components to discourage American companies from producing solar panels?

[1] https://hts.usitc.gov/search?query=[INSERT HEADING CODE HERE. EXAMPLE: 8471]

Loughla 4/13/2025||
Is nice that my family's small business is set to get absolutely crushed by tariffs at the end of the month while large tech companies are exempt. Thank goodness for America first policies. So cool. Very cool.
iugtmkbdfil834 4/13/2025||
This whole thing has multiple layers of annoying to even a slightly reasonable person. Naturally, further consolidating strength of the existing major behemoths is among those as well.
cosmicgadget 4/13/2025||
You should go to one of the million dollar dinners at Mar-a-Lago.
jpster 4/13/2025||
I suspect it would be a good idea if the US abolished the presidency and moved to a parliamentary system. Turns out that concentrating so much power in a single position is a bad idea.
fjfaase 4/13/2025||
The president has all the power that the congress and the senate gives him. Previous presidents were not given this much power. The bad guys are in the congress and the senate for not upholding the constitution.
jjav 4/13/2025|||
I think the current state of affair has exposed a fundamental bug in the consitution. Sure, the US has three branches of government that are supposed to be checks and balances on each other. Which has, mostly, worked really great.

But turns out there is no way to enforce this. If we get a president that doesn't care about any of this and is happy to ignore everyone else, there isn't actually any way to enforce the separation of duties of the three branches.

_heimdall 4/13/2025|||
The problem we have today is that the one runaway branch has support from at least one of the branches meant to act as a check on power (the legislative).

Congress should be stepping in if the president is overstepping his legal authority, or if they wish to reduce his legal authority. The Republican party has control of Congress and our political system has devolved into a game of blind faith in your team, neither party is willing to go against their president in a meaningful way.

We need principled leaders who care to run an effective government based on our constitution. We have few, if any, of those people in charge.

Balgair 4/13/2025||
>neither party is willing to go against their president in a meaningful way.

So, what's going on is that Donny himself has all the money. Not personally, but his various election funds have more than than the rest of the Republicans combined. Obama has a similar set-up back in 2012, but not nearly as disproportionate as Donny has.

Republicans can't go against Donny without risking a primary opponent funded by Donny that will oust them.

The Democrats do not have this funding problem to the same degree.

What this means is that the Republican party is only going to go against Donny (impeachment) when they figure that the average Republican Primary voter in deeply red districts will have a 50/50 chance of voting (actual polling, not vibes) the way Donny tells them too. And that reassessment is not going to happen until at least late summer 2026.

_heimdall 4/13/2025||
I don't know enough about the republican party's campaign finances to know whether Trump controls most or all of it. Even if he does, though, it doesn't have to work that way.

Congress has a duty to uphold the constitution, not to play political money games. The fact that they aren't willing to is a large part of why we're in this mess.

What we need are leaders that actually have principles they're willing to fight for, and ultimately that still rolls further down hill to the voters who have collectively created these incentives.

When Ron Paul was still in office lobbyists learned to not even bother talking to him. Agree or disagree with him, the man had strong views of how governments should work, was clear about those views to his electorate, and stood by them consistently. We need more of that.

__s 4/13/2025||
Their point is that without concerted effort the elected officials will follow Trump as long as elections in red states align with Trump's political funding

> Congress has a duty to uphold the constitution, not to play political money games

Those political money games will filter out opposition in congress as long as Trump is able to have yes men elected into congress

_heimdall 4/13/2025||
Sure, and if both of those problems are fundamentally just how politics is going to work now we'd be better off throwing out the system entirely and starting fresh.

Short of that, we need voters electing based on ideals and principles and we need those elected to actually follow the ideals and principles that got them elected.

Balgair 4/13/2025||
Yeah, the issue is one of incentives.

For all politicians, their incentive is to get (re)elected. That's pretty much part of the definition. The ones that follow that incentive are going to be (re)elected, those that don't aren't going to get into office.

But, if you really do believe in democracy, then you have to actually trust the voters here. If you're thinking that they are just rubes and are easily lead around, then well, you don't really believe in democracy, I think [0]. Whatever you think about Donny and his methods and ideas, we've had 10 years of the guy in politics. The voters (in the system we have) were as well informed as you could possibly expect them to be. They wanted him and everything about him, the results were very clear.

Ancient Greece is a good model here with it's many cities and systems. Democracies will often choose the wolf to escape the vultures. It's just part of how humans work. We can all wish that we live in a different place and a different time with different people, but we don't. We're here and now. And our fellow voters in the system we have, they want all of this.

Look, I'm with you, I think that the voters were very dumb here. But they have to find out one way or another and get their comeuppance. There is no feasible other way. We're going to get Donny in all his glory, good and hard.

[0] yes yes, we don't have a democracy, we have a constitutional republic and blah blah blah. We've all heard it a hundred times.

_heimdall 4/13/2025||
I agree with you here. I do personally believe in democracy, though for a slightly different reason.

I believe in democracy because I think the public should be able to collectively pick their fate and then own the outcome. I don't want an elite class doing what they think is best for the rest of us, and I don't want to own the result of their decisions if I had no say in the decisions.

I live in a very red state. Though I didn't vote for Trump I am surrounded by a strong majority of people that did. I've viewed it the way you're describing from the beginning - we made this bed, now we get to see what the result is and decide what to do next.

mrguyorama 4/14/2025||||
It literally doesn't matter how you structure a democracy, at the end of the day, all the rules and requirements etc are just words on paper. None of it will work unless people choose to play their parts.

Democracy cannot survive a political party that spends 50 years electing worse and worse criminals, and sacrificing everything to the alter of "More power for our party"

Voters did not punish republicans for Nixon. Voters did not punish republicans for Iran-Contra. Voters did not punish republicans for several market and economic failures. Voters did not punish republicans for multiple outright illegal wars waged on false pretenses that cost us tens of trillions of dollars, spent explicitly from debt.

So this is what you get. The bar will keep getting lower until republican voters finally decide they won't support literally any criminal with an R next to them.

So we are fucked basically.

AngryData 4/13/2025|||
I don't think this is a problem with the constitution as it was actually written, this is just the cumulative effect of states, congress, and the judicial branch ceding power to the executive for decade after decade, with a decent dose of political corruption, because both parties thought it was convenient for when they are in power. People had been warning about it the whole time and every time it happened they were either ignored as paranoid or grouped up as conspiracy theorists.
1oooqooq 4/13/2025||||
you seem to ignore or not know about how recently deputized private security guards went to a federal judge to press him on a decision for the insurrectionists.
bloopernova 4/13/2025|||
They are enabling him because his grass roots supporters threaten anyone who "steps out of line" with oligarch-funded primary challenges.

I was surprised to learn that there doesn't seem to be a way for people to recall congresspeople or senators.

There needs to be a patch for the constitution of the USA to fix the vulnerabilities/bugs exposed by trump and his supporters.

_heimdall 4/13/2025|||
We don't need to abolish the presidency or entirely change our system for a parliamentary model. We do need to drastically shrink the executive branch and its powers though.

I've found it interesting that so many are seriously concerned with what Trump is doing but not why the executive branch has the authority to do it in the first place.

bloopernova 4/13/2025||
I was thinking that the US marshals need to be the enforcement arm of the courts. But I am not sure if that would help much in the current situation.

Maybe police and federal enforcement agencies should be solely under Congress? At least then senior people can actually get fired for obeying unlawful orders from the executive.

_heimdall 4/13/2025|||
The judicial branch is meant only to provide clarify of laws on the books. I'm not sure what they would do with an enforcement agency, and I'd be worried about what that would do with regards to the types of people attracted to those judicial positions.

The legislative branch already has a lot of power. I'd be very concerned giving them the direct control, or even shared control, over enforcement. They should be controlling enforcement through legislation.

That leaves the executive, and personally I don't see a problem with enforcement living there. That is a very good reason to otherwise limit the authority of the executive branch though, and why executive orders as used today shouldn't be legal (they effectively are a legislative branch with the enforcement agencies).

lukas099 4/13/2025||
> That leaves the executive, and personally I don't see a problem with enforcement living there.

What if the executive just decides not to enforce the decisions of the legislative and judicial branches?

_heimdall 4/13/2025||
The legislative branch can pass a law requiring enforcement, likely within some specified parameters or timeline. If that passes and is constitutional, the courts could be tested and uphold the law.
dmd 4/13/2025|||
Uphold the law ... how? Who actually does it? The courts can write as many orders as they want, but if they're ignored, they're powerless.
_heimdall 4/13/2025||
And that would be the point when congress impeaches the president for dereliction of duty.

The system is surprisingly simple, it just requires leaders willing to actually uphold it.

dmd 4/13/2025||
Ok, but (a) they won't, and (b) if they do, who carries out the actual removal of the president from power? ... oh, right, the executive branch, again. Oops.
_heimdall 4/13/2025||
If your concerns are only procedural, surely congress could fix that if they cared. If they actually had the vote to impeach they could likely have the voter to either pass new law or amend the constitution to ensure the removal is enforced.
lukas099 4/14/2025|||
Or we could fix it now, before the Constitutional crisis, which is what we were talking about from the start.
_heimdall 4/14/2025||
Were we? This chain started with the idea of getting rid of the concept of the president and moving to a parliamentary system. Then it shifted a bit into giving the judicial branch its own law enforcement agency.

Those both risk creating a constitutional crisis, not avoiding one.

lukas099 4/15/2025||
Amending the Constitution to create a judicial law enforcement agency would not, in itself, be a Constitutional crisis. Or if you meant that such an agency could then cause one, yeah that could happen in theory, but so could the Executive causing a crisis because the courts don't have an enforcement arm. And to act like the President causing the crisis isn't the more likely scenario in 2025 would be stupifyingly ignorant.
lukas099 4/14/2025|||
> The legislative branch can pass a law requiring enforcement

At this point the Executive is already ignoring the law.

AngryData 4/13/2025|||
Congress already have the Capitol police which they could have arrest anyone they think committed a felony in any jurisdiction and have top jurisdiction in DC and any government building within it.
_heimdall 4/13/2025||
And I'm of the opinion that the capitol police should be limited only to acting as a security force for the Capitol itself. They shouldn't be enforcing anything beyond building security.
Aurornis 4/13/2025|||
Our current system should allow Congress to control this.

They’re not. That’s the problem.

You could swap it out for a parliamentary structure with the same characters and you’d get the same result. There’s a weird personality cult thing going on and everyone is waiting to see who will break ranks first, lest they get crushed by the retaliatory wrath of Trump calling his followers to oppose a person and Elon Musk dumping a mega war chest on them.

There are signs that people are starting to break ranks, but it looks like they want to see him have to face the consequences of his decisions before they jump in to save him.

This current policy is so bad that they’d be doing him a political favor by jumping in to disallow it. The problem for them is that he would be guaranteed to turn around and blame it on Congress. “My tariff plan was going to work, but Congress interfered!”

rstuart4133 4/13/2025||
If you are persuaded by "The Goodness Paradox" (Richard Wrangham) then you are probably going to think like I do Congress and the Senate acting almost inevitable if Trump does enough damage. The book is speculation/theory on how/why the low level of intra-tribe violence in humans could have evolved. It is literally an order of magnitude less than other species. His theory is in small tribes small men routinely band together to kill an oppressive leader. The result is leaders evolved to be less violent over time. Most of the violence in other species happens because it is the primary tool leaders use to extract resourced from others, so when they do this total in-tribe violence was reduced. It had no effect on the violence between tribes, which is anything has increased in humans. If he's right this behaviour is fairly ingrained in all human males now.

Wrangham's thesis is this behaviour is built on language. In order to kill the biggest and most powerful with little risk, the group had to coordinate and perhaps more importantly a level of trust had to be build up, because if one broke ranks and spilled the beans before the deed was done, the leader could pick off the insurrectionists one by one. The most startling example of this is the men who killed Caesar (some 60 to 70 of them) all sank a knife into his body. Only humans had the tool needed to build up the level of in-group trust: language.

The relevance to overthrowing is Trump needs a concerted whispering campaign that takes months to to create the bonds between the "small men". We've had less than 100 days to enjoy the fruits of Trump's blessings. They've only just become aware of what he is doing to their electoral prospects. Hell, I suspect Trumps big donors like Musk have only woken up to the fact in the last couple of days that they've funded a huge threat to their personal fortunes and the businesses that create and sustain those fortunes. But they are aware now, and as you say the white anting has begun. May it continue post haste.

YZF 4/13/2025||
You still often have one man with all the power in a parliamentary system. The Prime Minister. Take Canada as an example. JT had basically complete power over government. It's as rate for the prime minister party or coalition to go against him as it is for a president in the US to be impeached.

I think the trick has to be to just get better people into those positions. Which means better people need to have some incentive to get into politics. It's a tough one for sure.

ascorbic 4/13/2025|||
The prime minister in the UK is regularly kicked out by their party, and it's the same in most parliamentary systems. Liz Truss introduced ridiculous ideological economic policies that caused a bond market revolt. Her party kicked her out within the lifetime of a lettuce. This is only possible in a parliamentary system. Most of her recent predecessors were similarly if less rapidly removed. In the past 40 years, only three prime ministers lost their job at an election. Six were either forced out or resigned. Of those, arguably only Tony Blair left through choice.
mikrl 4/13/2025||
The UK is not Canada though. You have the House of Lords, we have a Senate. We are a (con)federation, and that adds a whole new political overlay that the UK doesn’t have.

The executive power of our PM relative to the body politik is much higher. We don’t have a tradition of backbench rebellion, and the PMO often wields more power than the cabinet.

ascorbic 4/14/2025||
The point is that a parliamentary system doesn't need to mean an unchecked leader
NamTaf 4/13/2025||||
Australia's favourite spectator sport is not, in fact, cricket or AFL, but rather watching government knife their PM whenever the political winds change direction. In the last 8 years, 4 PMs have been rolled before they've reached an election, because the party loses confidence in them.

Many parliamentary systems wherein a PM is elected by the cabinet routinely demonstrate that they will use their power to remove a leader in whom they've lost confidence.

lawn 4/13/2025||||
In Sweden our "prime minister" does not have all the power, not even close.
cwillu 4/13/2025||||
The notion that JT had complete control is just utter nonsense. Federal jurisdiction is sharply limited, the opposition party is expected to be able to introduce and pass legislation during a minority government (the ppc has just been acting incompetent; the NDP managed to pass national dental care despite only hold 16% of the seats), and provincial governments have been largely doing their own thing despite federal funding initiatives.
sethammons 4/13/2025||||
Any time the trick is to get humans "to just do" $thing, that $thing wont happen. Because humans.
rsynnott 4/13/2025||||
There may be some parliamentary country where what you say is correct, but in general, yeah, no, that’s not how it works.

Remember Liz Truss, all 49 days of her? A PM who fucks up on a Truss/Trump scale generally finds themselves very rapidly seeking alternative employment. Truss was forced to appoint a borderline sane chancellor about two weeks after causing the bond yield to go crazy, and was gone within another couple of weeks.

AstralStorm 4/13/2025||
Unlike UK, US has only impeachment and 25th as procedures. Perhaps a convention. There is no vote of no confidence.
3vidence 4/13/2025|||
There really isn't need to share misinformation on HN.

The PM has slight larger responsibility the a regular MP.

I'm not a big fan of JTs policies over the years but they were done via parliamentary support.

YZF 4/13/2025||
I wasn't really going after a political angle or the elections.

PMs in Canada wield a ton of power and AFAIK are rarely removed. I'm not sure what exactly you consider to be misinformation here. It's extremely rare for members of parliament to vote against their party.

Another example I can think of is Israel where the prime minister yields a ton of power.

I might be wrong but I think the use of the Emergencies Act was not approved in Parliament? How about the weapons embargo on Israel?

3vidence 4/14/2025||
So you can read the emergencies act here https://www.canada.ca/en/department-justice/news/2022/02/can...

It requires the house and Senate to vote amongst other requirements.

PMs are re-elected every 4 years and need to continue to win their riding just like every other MP.

The fact that MPs don't regularly vote against their party seems like pretty standard politics across the world.

The government can also call votes of no faith to remove the current PM which has indeed happened to the last 2.

I don't think you need malice to spread misinformation you just have not done sufficient research in this topic before making your comments.

Edit: I'm not familiar with the structure of Israel's government so I cant comment on how much power their PM has individually.

YZF 4/15/2025||
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-premiers-cabinet-1....

"Once cabinet declares an emergency, it takes effect right away — but the government still needs to go to Parliament within seven days to get approval. If either the Commons or the Senate votes against the motion, the emergency declaration is revoked."

Seems like this was later approved by parliament... Do you have a link showing it was approved by senate?

Right now we have an unelected PM. Not sure how the re-election after 4 years is relevant. A US president also has to be re-elected.

I said I might be wrong on the emergency act. and indeed I was wrong (-ish). But you're correct that I need to do better research. I was going from memory and indeed the initial application was before the approval but you are still technically correct.

Were the reciprocal tariffs on the US also approved by parliament?

I think you mean no confidence? Yes. This is generally something that happens in a minority government.

Anyways, I still think PMs in Canada effectively have a lot of power. But I stand corrected on the extent of their power. It is pretty rare they are removed by their party/coalition but the government has occasionally fallen due to votes of no confidence - yes. There is a complete list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prime_ministers_defeat...

EDIT: Also I think you're being a little bit extreme in your "spreading misinformation" comment.

> The PM has slight larger responsibility the a regular MP.

Is clearly not accurate either.

> You still often have one man with all the power in a parliamentary system. The Prime Minister. Take Canada as an example. JT had basically complete power over government. It's as rate for the prime minister party or coalition to go against him as it is for a president in the US to be impeached.

It's true that the mechanism of power in Canada and Israel (the two parliamentary systems I'm familiar with) are different but the PMs do have a lot of power. Canada being a federation maybe a bit less (but the US is also a federation).

The PMs party rarely goes against him (and maybe the vote above is an example for that). But yes, as I said above no confidence votes do (rarely) happen in Canada. The US president's powers are also limited, they rarely seem to get anything real done. I don't know of an objective measure there to compare the "power" of a PM vs. a President. PMs can be removed by parliament (or rather the government forced to go to elections). US presidents can also be removed (in theory).

This was more of my opinion/countering the idea that parliamentary systems just magically fix everything. I don't think they do. But I'll try and improve my accuracy when making random comments.

EDIT2: https://sencanada.ca/en/content/sen/chamber/441/debates/020d...

https://sencanada.ca/en/content/sen/chamber/441/debates/020d...

"Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Therefore, honourable senators, I ask for leave of the Senate to end the debate on the motion to confirm the public order emergency proclaimed on February 14, 2022, and revoked earlier today, and to withdraw the order for the consideration of the motion, with the Senate resuming sittings following the rules, orders and practices that would otherwise be in effect."

seafoamteal 4/12/2025|
Has the Proton CEO acknowledged just how farcically off base he was when he said the GOP was the party of small businesses?
9283409232 4/12/2025||
I was thinking about this yesterday and how stupid a comment it was to make.
wwweston 4/12/2025|||
Demand for Proton services is probably up.
techpineapple 4/13/2025||
The thing that’s really been getting to me, is that, I’m liberal, not pro-Trump, but the MAGA American heartland story has been really getting to me. I want to see small business, manufacturing, small town American succeed. And there’s some part of me that thought maybe Trump, as much as I don’t like him, is the thing that is needed to make that happen, but man it seems like he’s really fucking over the people who supported him the most.
sebazzz 4/13/2025|||
> small business, manufacturing, small town American succeed

That can only happen if you ban all imports of anything those small business manufacturers would made, and be content with the prices going up so those Americans can really be paid who make those products.

If that is not possible, then it is either slavery, poorly paid illegal immigrants or back to some other low-wage country like we’ve done for the past decades.

rstuart4133 4/13/2025|||
> That can only happen if you ban all imports of anything those small business manufacturers would made, and be content with the prices going up so those Americans can really be paid who make those products. ... then it is either slavery, poorly paid illegal immigrants or back to some other low-wage country like we’ve done for the past decades.

Counterpoint: About 1/3 of Australia's GDP is small business. We have very few tariffs. We have a high minimum wage (about USD$16/hr) and it's enforced, so slavery yada, yada isn't a factor.

What you said sounds like it might be true, but in reality it ain't so.

_heimdall 4/13/2025|||
> That can only happen if you ban all imports of anything those small business manufacturers would made

Consumers could always make this decision for themselves and pick domestic over foreign. It seems extremely unlikely, but I also see bringing back manufacturing without massive economic shock as extremely unlikely. If I want a pipe dream, it be for manufacturing to come back because consumers actually care that it comes back.

sebazzz 4/13/2025||
> Consumers could always make this decision for themselves and pick domestic over foreign.

In a free market, consumers _do_ decide for themselves. It is simply so, that price is the primary factor for many consumers. Especially in a society where living paycheck to paycheck is normal - but really in any society.

_heimdall 4/13/2025||
Price doesn't have to be the primary factor though, that was my point. People can choose for whatever reasons they want, we just don't currently seem to care where manufacturing is being done.
otterley 4/13/2025|||
Price does have to be the primary factor if you need something and can only afford the cheapest option. And this is the unfortunate reality for most people in the world, including those in first-world societies.
_heimdall 4/13/2025||
If we are, in fact, at the point where people are only buying the necessities and we still can't afford the cheapest options the game is kind if already lost.
DangitBobby 4/13/2025|||
Quality is actually a primary factor for me, which means for any important purchases (cars especially) I choose foreign-made products.
t-writescode 4/13/2025||||
Some of the biggest boons to small business would be universal healthcare and that's just ... you know, never going to happen under a Republican president (or a Democrat, for that matter).

It would greatly ease the burden of employing others in small businesses and it would greatly increase the safety net of would-be entrepreneurs.

It would also improve works-rights-as-capitalism because you could more easily quit abusive employers and make employers more merit-based as well.

Addendum: The $450 I spend every month on health insurance is a meaningful part of my monthly spend as I'm trying to start my business.

archagon 4/13/2025|||
It’s a common misconception that Republicans are pro-business. They loathe small business and love big business. If everyone could just be indentured to one of a dozen mega-conglomerates, that would be their perfect world.
_heimdall 4/13/2025|||
Its probably outdated rather than a misconception, there was a time when the republican party did actually push policies that helped small businesses.
keybored 4/13/2025|||
That’s the same thing as being pro-business. Big business out-competes small businesses again and again. The idea of smol business being viable (see: this whole thread) is just the marketing front.
t-writescode 4/13/2025|||
Well, it's also a US- vs the rest of the world thing. Big businesses destroying local economies, local health, local taxes, etc, is a very American problem. See [0] for a study on the topic.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7-e_yhEzIw "These Ugly Big Box Stores are Literally Bankrupting Cities" - Not Just Bikes

keybored 4/15/2025||
It’s a most-advanced-capitalist-power problem. Any other capitalist leader would have caused the same result.
9283409232 4/13/2025|||
Small business is viable. There are hundreds of thousands of small businesses successfully running throughout the country. Maybe I'm missing your point but this seems like a dumb thing to say.
keybored 4/13/2025|||
Sorry, it would have been more correct to say that while smol businesses are viable, Republicans and other corrupt politicians siding with big business is just them siding with the winning side.
9283409232 4/13/2025||
Ok I agree with this but I would add that they are only winning because Republicans side with them.
mrguyorama 4/14/2025|||
Without proper anti-trust and monopoly enforcement, no, small businesses cannot compete with megacorps who have giant war chests to fund the literal destruction of whatever niche you call your market.

Megacorps are destructive to market forces in general.

Small businesses died because we fed all the IGAs to Walmart, through Reagan's absolutely braindead "what if we just don't prevent monopolies?" policy.

It turns out, destroying the economy of local communities so that Walmart shareholders can be even wealthier while average Americans only get a few cents cheaper on some products.... at least until the monopoly has consolidated control and can just keep raising prices for the rest of history while selectively dropping prices anywhere someone tries to compete only serves the goddamned shareholders, not Americans.

Most rural places had small grocers. Now people who live in those places have to drive an hour to Walmart, and the local economy no longer has anyone working at the local grocer. The building that used to house the local grocer now has a fourth generation of whatever sketch dollar store company bought it this year, which employs exactly one human being from the local community, and the products are terribly priced, meaning not only did we lose the money staying local with whatever kind of more expensive IGA we replaced, we didn't even get better prices for it!

Monopolies are a huge percentage of the problem. America's rural communities are dying partially because all the local businesses have been replaced by national behemoths so literally every single day to day purchase you make ships more money out of the local economy. Nobody can have a job in a rural community because every dollar that finds its way to that community gets shipped out to Walmart HQ instead of flowing around and paying tradespeople and buying local products and services.

gnarlynarwhal42 4/13/2025|||
I've always disagreed with single-payer/universal/govt-supplied healthcare for various reasons, but hadn't thought about this angle.

Thank you for bringing this up

t-writescode 4/13/2025||
I'm happy to help someone see a different perspective on things!
otterley 4/13/2025||||
Why does it deserve to succeed, especially if it results in everyone paying more for things, and if they’re of worse quality to boot?

Labor and industries are specialized just like agriculture is. Fighting to redomesticate labor is a bit like fighting to produce bananas at scale in the USA: It’s just not practical and will cause harm to the broader economy.

9283409232 4/13/2025|||
They said nothing about deserve. They said they want it to succeed.
otterley 4/13/2025||
And I want a pony. But one should be realistic in their desires.
9283409232 4/13/2025||
A pony is a very realistic desire. Horse property is cheap and horses themselves aren't too expensive provided you have time. Don't let your dreams be dreams.
otterley 4/14/2025||
This reads like a AI response. What world do you live in?
9283409232 4/14/2025||
Sorry my data cutoff is October 2024, please prompt again. :P
techpineapple 4/13/2025|||
This critique seems to miss that Trump is putting his thumb on the scales against small business, and in favor of big business. There are macroeconomic and antitrust policies one could put in place to level the playing field and Trump seems insistent not only on not preferencing small town America, but actively opposing it.
rebolek 4/13/2025|||
What a surprise. Trump fucking over people. He has a history, it's not some mysterious hero who just arrived to town. Why's anybody surprised given the things he's done in past.
Neonlicht 4/13/2025||
Nobody in Beijing or Brussels was surprised they had plans. Observe how neither of them is kissing his ass at the moment.
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