Posted by ingve 4/14/2025
> It gets weirder: in Haskell, exceptions can be thrown to other threads!
What's really interesting is that because of purity, you have to have asynchronous exceptions otherwise you give up a lot of modularity. At least that's what Simons Marlow and Peyton Jones argue in Asynchronous Exceptions in Haskell (2006): https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/...
> While the semi-asynchronous approach avoids breaking synchronization abstractions, it is non-modular in that the target code must be written to use the signalling mechanism. Worse still (for us), the semi-asynchronous approach is simply incompatible with a purely-functional language, such as Concurrent Haskell. The problem is that polling a global flag is not a functional operation, yet in a Concurrent Haskell program, most of the time is spent in purely-functional code. On the other hand, since there is absolutely no problem with abandoning a purely-functional computation at any point, asynchronous exceptions are safe in a functional setting. In short, in a functional setting, fully-asynchronous exceptions are both necessary and safe — whereas in an imperative context fully-asynchronous exceptions are not the only solution and are unsafe.
If you can read PLTese, it's really quite a nice paper.
Haskell's IO type system doesn't model concurrency at all. `IO a` could be a fork and join, an infinite event loop, really anything, it's a black box in terms of "correctness". Better than using JavaScript maybe, but hardly "correct" in any sort of formal, tractable sense.
Is it because it is just a very hard thing, or is it because its a synchronous language, with async bolted on? (I'm talking about a purely language point of view, not from a python VM / GIL point of view)
Async is hard, no doubt—but some languages are designed to reduce the surface area of what can go wrong. I’ve heard great things about Erlang, Elixir, and BEAM-based languages in general. They treat async not as an add-on, but as a core architectural principle.
> In bare-metal embedded systems or inside the operating system, it’s not unusual to manually break computation into state machines, driven by interrupts.
Although not the topic of TFA, in fact, the footnotes that this is "a whole different ball game." Does anyone have any good source for this aspect of 'low-level'/OS development? I'm more than capable of chasing down sources from a more high level introduction or overview, so anything would be helpful. This concept seems like it may just be a more pragmatic description of embedded/OS development than what I've read previously.
Btw. too bad author talks about microsecond guarantees usage but does not provide a link, that would be interesting reading.
In practice, it is not. The canonical Haskell compiler, GHC, is excellent at transforming operations on immutable data, as Haskell programs are written, into efficient mutations, at the runtime level. Also, since web development is quite popular in the Haskell community, lots of people have spent many hours optimizing this precise use-case.
In my experience, the real downside is that compilation times are a bit long -- the compiler is doing a LOT of work after all.
Yes, at the level of native machine code and memory cells, there's not that much of a difference between immutability + garbage collection, and higher level source code that mutates. Thanks to GC you are going to overwrite the same memory locations over and over again, too.
Of course, even a moving GC has limits, itwon't turn a hashtable into something that has local accesses.
Why would there be large memory allocations because of immutable data structures? Btw, you can also use immutable data structure in eg Rust fairly easily. And Haskell also supports mutation and mutable data structures.
However, Haskell can use a lot of memory, but that's more to do with pervasive 'boxing' by default, and perhaps laziness.
Tries (like scala’s Vector) or trie maps (the core map types of Scala, Clojure and probably Haskell?) aren’t copied on updates.
In fact, whether a data structure is an immutable or persistent data structure or merely an unmodifiable data structure (like Kotlin uses) is based on whether it requires full copies on most updates or not. In FP languages, immutable data structures aren’t “specialized” at all.
This hurt my brain. It seems that in some places (e.g. Java land) unmodifiable refers to something that you can't modify but could just be a wrapper around a structure that can be modified. In that case they use immutable to mean something that is nowhere modifiable.
I may be misrepresenting this idea, but I think the terminology is so poor that it deserves to be misunderstood.
// Using mutability.
// `increment` is void, and makes 2 bigger for everyone.
increment(2);
// Typical Java "safety".
// It's still void, but now it throws a RuntimeException
// because the developers are saving you from making everyone's 2 bigger.
increment(2);
// Immutable
// Returns 3
increment(2);containers and unordered-containers handle most of your needs and they only copy their trees' spines (O log n) on update.
Haskell's GC is also fast when you are mostly generating garbage, which is inherently true for web server handlers.
A composition of catamorphic and anamorphic functions can eliminate a lot of the in-between allocations (a hylomorphism)
Basically it looks like you’re building a ton of intermediate structure then consuming it - meaning much of the in-between stuff can be eliminated.
Interesting optimizations and a little mind blowing when you see it.
When data is immutable, it can be freely shared. Changes to the data essentially uses copy-on-write. And it only writes the delta change, since you don't need a deep copy due to immutability. Add that the garbage collectors of Haskell and Erlang are designed to work with a high allocation rate and have 0 cost for dead data, and this is much faster than what people think.
The way you implement a webserver in either Haskell or Erlang is rather trivial. Whenever there's an incoming request, you make a thread to handle it. So you don't have 1 webserver serving 10k requests. You have 10k webservers serving 1 request each. And since they are started from the same core data, they'll share that due to immutability. See also old-style Apache or PHP and fork().
Either you have a specialised GC that works like this, or probably a good general generational GC can pick up on this pattern on its own.
The step 0 is missing:
Compose the program into several lanes of execution, traditionally executed via SIMD.
This is a massive piece of performance left on the table on modern computer architectures, by assuming threading is the first manifestation of concurrency.
I wish there was better author time feedback to the developer on where they're getting such a perf boost. As far as I'm aware there's no popular linting or blue squiggle to guide you in the right direction.
In games it seems like the popular pattern is to rewrite everything entirely in an entity component system framework.
ISPC comes close, but does come with a learning curve.