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Posted by ianrahman 4/15/2025

Mark Zuckerberg's failed negotiations with the FTC to end Meta's antitrust case(www.wsj.com)
89 points | 93 comments
neonate 4/16/2025|
https://archive.ph/w58QJ
bearjaws 4/16/2025||
Why is a fine even an acceptable resolution?

Previously the FTC had been running such that, if it could not prove an acquisition was bad it would approve it.

In this case, back in 2012 Instagram was small, didn't charge money, and not considered a competitor to Facebook.

Well, we sure as hell know now it was a bad idea. Harmed consumer privacy, removed other competitors, and expanded the network effect of then Facebook.

And before anyone says "oh what about YouTube, X, TikTok, competitors" - Yes they should all be split off from their parent companies too.

giancarlostoro 4/16/2025||
My favorite was that the deal was where Facebook agreed not to import IG into FB. They have merged the two together so much so that if Facebook has a complete outage, so does IG. Not only that, but Facebook "magically" knows when I'm on IG and vice versa.
transcriptase 4/16/2025|||
Much like when a company is acquired and the execs of the acquisition assure everyone that nothing is going to change.

Until it inevitably and drastically does because those execs no longer have any real power even if they weren’t explicitly lying.

tialaramex 4/16/2025||
Oh yeah, lots of "First Time?" meme opportunities during acquisition.
granzymes 4/16/2025||||
>deal was where Facebook agreed not to import IG into FB

What deal was this?

captn3m0 4/16/2025||
This was for WhatsApp
pdpi 4/16/2025||||
> They have merged the two together so much so that if Facebook has a complete outage, so does IG.

If AWS has a complete outage, so do many completely unrelated businesses. As a regulator, "running on the same infrastructure" would be the least of my worries and an acceptable carve-out for a "no integration" clause.

zelphirkalt 4/16/2025||
Running on separate infrastructure makes it a lot easier to confirm for an auditor, that data is not being merged or used in combination though.
notyourwork 4/16/2025||||
And now I’ve noticed threads permeate IG to cross-pollinate.
alex1138 4/16/2025|||
Also I think if you sign up for Instagram you get Threads lol

Nice account you got there, would be a shame if you deleted Threads and also deletes your Insta

soco 4/16/2025||
But on my Android I got no Threads. True, IG tries their best to convince me to install it. Maybe I don't have it because my IG was created before times?
joey_spaztard 4/16/2025|||
Also, Facebook/Meta said they would not be able to link WhatsApp accounts to facebook accounts. After they were allowed to buy WhatsApp they unsurprisingly began using metadata for things like knowing who Facebook users are talking to.

They paid some fines that they show no sign of caring about.

drivingmenuts 4/16/2025|||
I don't think the people running the FTC care what happens so long as they land a huge sum of money to satisfy their boss. I suspect the FTC is not long for this world anyway and after this, it'll be a much more direct threat. Maybe I'm too paranoid and pessimistic, but a year ago that wouldn't even have been a consideration. Now, it's a possibility.
paulddraper 4/16/2025|||
The FTC signed off on the acquisition.

Now they have third party buyers remorse.

dtquad 4/16/2025||
This anti-big-tech hysteria in the US is dangerous. Applying early 20th antitrust thinking to modern tech companies is short sighted and doesn't show the whole picture. These American big tech companies that people like Steve Bannon and Lina Khan want to split up have been responsible for not only the impressive US GDP and wealth recovery and growth since the 2008 financial crisis but also for much of the rest of the world's wealth recovery and growth since the 2008 crisis.

Danish pension funds have 25% allocation on US stocks but ~70% of the total returns in 2022-2024 came from US stocks with big tech companies leading the charge.

KoolKat23 4/16/2025|||
Inequality is growing massively, it is also not necessarily the best use of capital, whilst this growth may be big, if it were not so concentrated it would likely be even larger. Concentration of capital leads to inefficiency, a small but relevant example, large mansions and super yachts. The marginal propensity to consume also needs to be considered, we live in a demand driven world.
ethbr1 4/16/2025||
Indeed. I'd argue that failing to apply robust antitrust enforcement (as the US hasn't in the last 20 years) is short-sighted.

It creates monolithic companies that are enormously profitable at the cost of innovation.

Fewer huge companies will never innovate as quickly as a diverse and competitive ecosystem, especially when the cost to develop and deliver is minimal.

Seen another way, the current Big Tech landscape creates artificial barriers that limit startups' access to customers compared to what the internet and mobile previously enabled.

philipallstar 4/16/2025||
> Fewer huge companies will never innovate as quickly as a diverse and competitive ecosystem, especially when the cost to develop and deliver is minimal.

It's not clear that this is true. Facebook produces a load of stuff out of its R&D budget that wouldn't be possible in 100 smaller companies.

KoolKat23 4/17/2025|||
This doesn't change the fact that they cause societal problems operating at this scale. Should we be building their vision of the future or societies consensus vision of it?
ethbr1 4/16/2025|||
I'd respectfully disagree.

The advantages of monolithic R&D driven by a profit engine are (1) funding scale & (2) longer-term planning.

The disadvantages are (3) leadership tunnel-vision (e.g. $$$$ to build the shittiest metaverse) & (4) political inertia (e.g. greenfield R&D being subject to high-level BigCo political jockeying, like Microsoft's killing anything internal that threatened Windows/Office revenue).

It's far from all-positive, and debatably less effective than making a larger number of more diverse bets and then letting customers decide which is best.

E.g. Facebook never would have created something as alien as TikTok

philipallstar 4/16/2025||
I'm not saying it's all positive. I'm countering something that says it's all negative. And TikTok is more like Facebook than a small startup.
ethbr1 4/16/2025||
TikTok is more like Facebook now, but the genesis of it in Douyin isn't something Facebook would have considered.

For the same reason that Microsoft of yore would have never considered Office-online. (Why would anyone want a word processor on the web?)

Institutional blind spots are dangerous.

kentm 4/16/2025||||
Driving high levels of the total returns off of a handful of advertisement companies doesn’t seem good or sustainable IMO. But
dtquad 4/17/2025||
In that regard the Danish pension funds are actually playing it safer than our neighbors. The Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund, the largest of its kind in the world, is 40% US equities (read: US tech stocks) and 10% US private equity (read: more US tech).

Some Norwegians are starting to be concerned but only because they think Trump will seize their assets.

sc68cal 4/16/2025|||
"monopolies are good because line goes up"
dtquad 4/16/2025||
>monopolies

Where exactly? They lose market share to every new AI wrapper app and most young people are on the Chinese video app.

>are good because line goes up

The "line goes up" sarcasm really doesn't work when we are actually suddenly in a "line goes down" situation and it clearly sucks.

officeplant 4/16/2025|||
The line going down is just a return to reality hopefully. So many vastly over valued tech stocks and tech adjacent stocks.
const_cast 4/16/2025|||
> The "line goes up" sarcasm really doesn't work

No it still works, because "but make a lot of money!" is _never_ an acceptable argument for anything. It may be a supplemental argument, but you need something else to be the foundation. Making a lot of money doesn't explain why something is good or why we should do it over other things.

I mean, we can make a lot of money through theft, or selling tobacco, maybe legalizing heroin. But those things are bad.

grg0 4/16/2025||
So weird seeing him dressed up without his redpilled-Zuck-style over-sized t-shirt.
justonceokay 4/16/2025|
Ed Hardy isn’t a good look for him
giancarlostoro 4/16/2025||
Assuming Mark Zuckerberg coughs up 30 billion somehow, who gets that money? Like really, and where does it go to? Serious question.
AlotOfReading 4/16/2025||
As far as I'm aware, the FTC's collections are unencumbered, so they just go into the general fund along with things like taxes. That's used to finance the basic and ongoing operations of the federal government. Collections by other agencies are sometimes earmarked by Congress to do things like set aside x% of collections to fund further enforcement actions or divert a bit into something like the SEC's whistleblower fund.
philipallstar 4/16/2025||
The bureaucracy must expand to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.
transcriptase 4/16/2025|||
The treasury. It basically means 30 billion fewer dollars will need to be conjured for outgoing payments.
dylan604 4/16/2025||
Oh look, here's how we can pay for that tax cut for the über wealthy! Thanks Zuck!!
zelphirkalt 4/16/2025|||
It could be well invested in areas preventing social media addiction, like education for example.
CyberDildonics 4/16/2025|||
"Who gets it" and "where does it go" are the same question.
SecretDreams 4/16/2025||
Trump's kids?
brandall10 4/16/2025||
"Zuckerberg offered much less and hoped Trump would back him up."

I wouldn't be surprised if a certain amount was offered through backchannels to his family, and someway, somehow, Trump didn't have the influence over this case like was expected.

potato3732842 4/16/2025||
If you're looking to open a factory or build an apartment (or any other single digit million dollar thing that some government official can discretionarily double the cost of by being obstinate and forcing you to drag them through court) building one of the first things you do is internet stalk the key government officials figure out who their friends are and kick off a bunch of $200-2000 donations to whatever stuff the people around them are involved in (middle school drama club, local animal shelter, etc, etc).

With hundreds of millions at stake I would be very surprised if they weren't doing this and more.

rvz 4/16/2025||
Microsoft will be targeted last, [0] with good reason. (They know how to avoid anti-trust scrutiny the best).

This is why Google, Apple, Amazon and Meta have all been targeted first, before building a huge case for Microsoft.

Again, it won't be easy as the FTC and the DOJ have failed to break Microsoft up many times.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41475806

rtkwe 4/16/2025|
What would be the actual case against them these days? They've lost their dominant position in nearly everything except desktop OS, if they're being anticompetitive they're doing a pretty bad job of it.
ece 4/16/2025||
Whatsapp and Instagram only compete with others if you can convince others to install another app and switch to it. Switching phones is easier, so is whatever else you personally use by far. I'm glad beeper exists, but it shouldn't have taken this long for it to exist. Only one way to reduce harmful network effects, give users more choice.
thaumasiotes 4/16/2025||
> “We haven’t been shy about explaining why it doesn’t make sense for the FTC to bring a case to trial that requires it to prove something every 17-year-old in America knows is absurd—that Instagram doesn’t compete with TikTok,” she said.

In this hypothetical scenario:

1. Instagram competes with TikTok, winning a minority share of the market.

2. The government decrees that TikTok is anathema and expels them from the market.

3. The government sues Instagram for having a supermajority share of the remaining market.

I feel like there should be a form of estoppel preventing the argument.

specialist 4/16/2025||
> I feel like there should be a form of estoppel preventing the argument.

Agreed. Alas, our SCOTUS would never limit themselves in that way.

thaumasiotes 4/16/2025||
What are you trying to say? Estoppel isn't a limit on the court.
dtquad 4/16/2025||
Maybe apps that take less than 3 minutes for a 17-year-old to install, register account, and learn how to use, are not really defensible "monopolies" and maybe these apps shouldn't be the target of antitrust laws that were intended for early 20th century robber barons.
barnabee 4/16/2025||
The network effects, economies of scale, and associated ability to plough huge profits into buying up and out-promoting competitors absolutely make them monopolies.
theideaofcoffee 4/16/2025||
Get fucked, Zuck. I hope the knee-bending was worth it! I also hope that any case (as one could be pretty sure there will be litigation over it) in the future finds in favor of the commission. The fine can't be big enough for the shit it's put the world through.
valeg 4/16/2025|
Trump is offended by measly sums which Zuck has put in his pocket. Anti-trust crusade is a perfect way to shake more from him. Give the bully an inch, he will take a mile.
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