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Posted by sohkamyung 4/16/2025

How Nintendo bled Atari games to death(thereader.mitpress.mit.edu)
211 points | 152 commentspage 2
CSMastermind 4/16/2025|
Every story I hear about Atari is wild. Hard to believe they managed to have the success they did.
ForOldHack 4/16/2025||
I took a class from an ex-executive. It was trajecially worse. Almost every morning for them was a jaw dropping knuckle dragging experience.

This is the Harvard text book example of "let the adults handle it."

lordfrito 4/16/2025||
I'm endlessly fascinated by the stories that come out about the execs dealings during that period. How they were offered and passed on being the American distributor for the NES (all because the exec saw Donkey Kong running on a Coleco Adam at CES). [0] And how they funded but f'ed up the deal with the Amiga chipset (it should have been theirs but Commodore stole it at the 11'th hour). [1] Or how they were illegally bypassing DRAM price controls in the Tramiel era (the illegal $$$ is the main reason Atari stayed afloat after the disastrous Federated Group purchase). [2] The list goes on and on.

I'm under the impression that there's a lot of real dirty stuff that's been swept under the rug, maybe now lost to time, as many of the execs are no longer with us. A lot is documented in the book "Atari: Business if Fun". [3] A shame that the follow up book "Atari: Business is War" will likely never be finished. [4]

[0] https://www.timeextension.com/features/flashback-remember-wh...

[1] https://www.nostalgianerd.com/the-amiga-story/

[2] https://forums.atariage.com/topic/207245-secret-atari-dram-r...

[3] https://www.amazon.com/Atari-Inc-Business-Curt-Vendel/dp/098...

[4] https://forums.atariage.com/topic/227211-atari-corp-business...

lordfrito 4/16/2025|||
Mainly because they were the only game in town back then. At the time they were the fastest growing company in history... So many $$$, for a time everything they touched turned to gold. Being first in a new industry, they made all the mistakes that subsequent companies learned from and avoided. For example, putting a textiles executive in charge, treating developers like assembly line workers, etc.

This all laid the seeds for their subsequent implosion... Epic rise, epic fall. I wish someone would make a movie about that story.

hinkley 4/17/2025||
First you're successful because you didn't listen to anyone telling you that you were going to fail. Then you fail because you didn't listen to anyone telling you that you were going to fail.

There's a story in business that the CEO that built the company is not the CEO that can keep it running. That definitely seems to be true.

johnvanommen 4/16/2025||
> Every story I hear about Atari is wild. Hard to believe they managed to have the success they did.

It was a different era.

I worked in a mall arcade in the early 90s, and because we purchased arcade games, I had access to the trade shows and various promotional events. For instance, E3 invited me to come out for their first event.

The size of the teams in the early 90s was TINY; I met the dudes who made Mortal Kombat at the AMOA convention, and the entire team was less than ten people. The main programmer had so little experience, he was largely known for doing the voice of "Rudy" in the pinball game "Funhouse."

Basically, the tech community was tiny and the gaming community was a tiny subdomain of the tech community.

Atari's big innovation may have simply been that it was founded in the right location (Silicon Valley.) If it wasn't for that, Steve Jobs wouldn't have worked at Atari. (And Wozniak wouldn't have moonlighted at Atari.)

https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/steve-jobs-atari-empl...

I'm doing this from memory, but IIRC:

Atari was the only major gaming company based out of Silicon Valley

A lot of the games of the time were basically just Japanese games that were licensed by US distributors. Pac Man came from Namco in Japan and was distributed in the US by Chicago's Midway, Space Invaders was made by Taito in Japan and licensed in the US. (Also by Midway, IIRC.) "Defender" was one of the first 'homegrown' games in the US that wasn't coming out of Atari in Silicon Valley. (Defender was made by Eugene Jarvis in Chicago for Williams, who later merged with Midway.)

Although Nintendo was NOT based in Silicon Valley, they had the dumb luck of locating just up the hill from Microsoft. If you've seen "King of Kong," the dude from the documentary basically lives halfway between Microsoft in Redmond and Nintendo in Snoqualmie: https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/Nintendo_North_Bend

Sega WAS based in Silicon Valley, but their slow decline was arguably due to a political tug-of-war between Sega of America (based in Silicon Valley) and Sega (based in Japan.)

mrandish 4/16/2025||
> "In July 2024, a new company called Tengen Games released its first game, “Zed and Zee,” for the Nintendo Entertainment System (NES) ... Tengen and its parent company, Atari Games, had disappeared 30 years ago after being crushed in court by Nintendo for doing exactly the same thing: manufacturing unauthorized cartridges for the NES."

The article doesn't address how Tengen is now able to produce unauthorized NES-compatible cartridges. Is Tengen paying Nintendo for a license? Did the patents expire? Did relevant legal precedents change? Another possibility might be that, while Atari's 80s legal actions established that intermediate infringement during reverse engineering could be fair use, Atari itself was precluded from relying on that fair use because its lawyers did naughty things. Maybe "new" Tengen reversed engineered it again from scratch without naughty lawyers?

Does anyone know?

erik 4/16/2025||
The patent on the lockout mechanism has expired and clean software implementations of the algorithm have been created. So the old legal protections no longer apply.

And while Nintendo still aggressively enforces their copyright on their old games, they probably don't care very much about unlicensed games being created for their very old hardware. It's just not commercially relevant to them.

ericzawo 4/16/2025||
A great history of Tengen is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwMsr0zFhnA
mrandish 4/16/2025||
Sorry, can't watch a video at work. Does the video answer the question I asked?
Dwedit 4/16/2025||
Atari Corp and Atari Games were separate companies by the time the NES was released. Atari Corp was responsible for the consoles and computers, while Atari Games did the arcade games.

Atari Games used the name "Tengen" for all home releases.

Atari Games did both licensed and unlicensed works for the NES. Notably, Tengen Tetris was originally a fully licensed VS arcade game called "VS Tetris" before its unlicensed home release. Tengen didn't have the rights to home versions of Tetris, only arcade versions, and Nintendo did not have the rights to arcade versions. Hence Tengen/Atari Games developing an arcade version of Tetris for Nintendo hardware.

aa-jv 4/20/2025||
The only thing that matters in all of this is the fact that there are still new things being developed for old computers.

Like, delightful and whimsical things.

Just look at this years 10LINEBASIC competition entries, for example, to see why information just wants to be free. PAC10Liner says wa'!?!?

https://bunsen.itch.io/pac-10liner-atari-8-bit-by-vitoco

Oh, lest we forget, some space indvader'ing:

https://bunsen.itch.io/wave-invaders-sinclair-zx-spectrum-by...

These symbols are very, very fairly used these days.

(NB; - these aren't the winners, just my favourites, go check out the rest here: https://homeputerium.de/)

protocolture 4/17/2025||
>The underlying legal sub-questions were particularly complex, and both federal appeals court judges distilled their astute reasonings in clear ways, ultimately ruling that intermediate (temporary) copying of software code in the process of reverse-engineering it is generally permissible as fair use under copyright law. At the heart of their technical legal rulings was economic policy.

Seems pertinent to the illegal copying of works before training your LLM tbh.

rvba 4/16/2025||
Quote from the article:

> I would deliver my game software code to Nintendo, who would add the secret key to it

Did it really work this way on NES? I thought they only used the lockout chip and no signatures, since it would use too much processor power 40 years ago

nicetryguy 4/16/2025|
The lockout chip(s) are physical chip(s) on the cart and in the console that communicate directly with each other on the cart pins. The CPU is not involved. It's not a "secret key" in the cryptography sense per se.
twilo 4/17/2025||
Sony did something very similar to Sega and now they are the “good guys”
ryao 4/16/2025||
Why did Atari not just use a signal analyzer to get the key? Also, why was there a copy of the code at the United States Copyright Office?
ndiddy 4/16/2025|
> Why did Atari not just use a signal analyzer to get the key?

The 10NES chip was a bit more complicated than that. Basically the way it worked was that there was a chip in every NES, and another chip in every cartridge. On reset, the chip in the NES randomly picks 1 of 16 bitstreams, and tells the chip in the cartridge which bitstream it chose. Each chip then starts continuously sending the chosen bitstream to the other chip. If the chip in the NES sees a discrepancy between the generated bitstream and the bitstream it received, it will reset the NES. This is the cause of the famous NES "blinking red light".

> Also, why was there a copy of the code at the United States Copyright Office?

If a copyright holder registers their copyright, it amplifies their rights (such as granting them a higher amount of damages in an infringement lawsuit). Registering the copyright for a piece of software involves submitting the first 25 pages and last 25 pages of the source code, or the entire code, whatever's smaller. The 10NES chip used an extremely simple 4-bit microcontroller with only 512 bytes of ROM, so the copyright office has the entire source code.

KHRZ 4/16/2025||
At least they had trials back then. Switch emulators last year simply got intimidated to abandon their projects.
revskill 4/17/2025|
Is there s human species who do not like games ?