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Posted by voxadam 4/16/2025

Future Chips Will Be Hotter Than Ever(spectrum.ieee.org)
68 points | 90 comments
trehalose 4/16/2025|
> In a frontside design, the silicon substrate can be as thick as 750 micrometers. Because silicon conducts heat well, this relatively bulky layer helps control hot spots by spreading heat from the transistors laterally. Adding backside technologies, however, requires thinning the substrate to about 1 mm to provide access to the transistors from the back.

This is a typo here, right? 1mm is thicker, not thinner, than 750 micrometers. I assume 1µm was meant?

enragedcacti 4/16/2025||
I think you're right that 1µm was meant given the orders of magnitude in other sources e.g. 200µm -> 0.3µm in this white paper:

https://www.cadence.com/en_US/home/resources/white-papers/th...

jackyinger 4/17/2025||
Wafers on some semiconductor processes are 0.3m in diameter. You could not practically handle a 1um thick wafer 0.3m in diameter without shattering it. 0.75mm is a reasonable overall wafer thickness.
Workaccount2 4/16/2025||
Whose gonna pull the trigger on beryllium oxide mounting packages first?

Its the holy grail of having thermal conductivity somewhere between aluminum and copper, while being as electrically insulating as ceramic. You can put the silicon die directly on it.

Problem is that the dust from it is terrifyingly toxic, but in it's finished form it's "safe to handle".

mppm 4/16/2025||
> Whose gonna pull the trigger on beryllium oxide mounting packages first?

Nobody, presumably :)

Why mess with BeO when there is AlN, with higher thermal conductivity, no supply limitations and no toxicity?

Edit: I've just checked, practically available AlN substrates still seem to lag behind BeO in terms of thermal conductivity.

mjevans 4/16/2025|||
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_nitride For anyone else who wasn't familiar with the compound.

""" Aluminium nitride (AlN) is a solid nitride of aluminium. It has a high thermal conductivity of up to 321 W/(m·K)[5] and is an electrical insulator. Its wurtzite phase (w-AlN) has a band gap of ~6 eV at room temperature and has a potential application in optoelectronics operating at deep ultraviolet frequencies.

...

Manufacture

AlN is synthesized by the carbothermal reduction of aluminium oxide in the presence of gaseous nitrogen or ammonia or by direct nitridation of aluminium.[22] The use of sintering aids, such as Y2O3 or CaO, and hot pressing is required to produce a dense technical-grade material.[citation needed] Applications

Epitaxially grown thin film crystalline aluminium nitride is used for surface acoustic wave sensors (SAWs) deposited on silicon wafers because of AlN's piezoelectric properties. Recent advancements in material science have permitted the deposition of piezoelectric AlN films on polymeric substrates, thus enabling the development of flexible SAW devices.[23] One application is an RF filter, widely used in mobile phones,[24] which is called a thin-film bulk acoustic resonator (FBAR). This is a MEMS device that uses aluminium nitride sandwiched between two metal layers.[25] """

Speculation: it's present use suggests that at commercially viable quantities it might be challenging to use as a thermal interface compound. I've also never previously considered the capacitive properties of packaging components and realize of course that's required. Use of Al O as a heat conductor is so far outside of my expertise...

Could a materials expert elaborate how viable / expensive this compound is for the rest of us?

mppm 4/16/2025||
I'm not much of an expert, but maybe this can be useful: AlN is a somewhat widely used insulating substrate that is chosen where sapphire is insufficient (~40 W/mK), but BeO (~300 W/mK) is too expensive or toxic. The intrinsic conductivity of single-crystal AlN is very high (~320 W/mK), but the material is extremely difficult to grow into large single crystals, so sintered substrates are used instead. This reduces thermal conductivity to 170-230 W/mK depending on grade. Can't comment on pricing though.
wiml 4/17/2025|||
I think diamond is even more thermally conductive than either. A quick google finds a number of companies working on silicon-on-diamond.
adrian_b 4/17/2025|||
Most packages with beryllium oxide have been abandoned long ago, beryllia being replaced with aluminum nitride.

Because aluminum nitride is not as good as beryllia, packages with beryllia have survived for some special applications, like military, aerospace or transistors for high-power radio transmitters.

Those packages are not dangerous, unless someone attempts to grind them, but their high price (caused by the difficult manufacturing techniques required to avoid health risks, and also by the rarity of beryllium) discourages their use in any other domains.

pitaj 4/16/2025|||
> Problem is that the dust from it is terrifyingly toxic, but in it's finished form it's "safe to handle".

Doesn't that mean it would be problematic for electronics recycling?

pelagicAustral 4/16/2025|||
I don't think toxicity levels on compounds used in electronics has even been a stopper for furthering humanity
catlikesshrimp 4/17/2025||
I know it is an hyperbole. First thing I thought was: Cadmium, Mercury, Lead and CFC. I was slightly annoyed about Cd and Hg
ulrikrasmussen 4/17/2025|||
Or getting berylliosis from putting a drill through your electronic device before throwing it out
giantg2 4/16/2025||
Won't you have conductivity issues if the oxide layer is damaged?
mjevans 4/16/2025||
The article mentions backside (underside) power distribution, capacitors to help regulate voltage (thus allowing tighter tolerances and lower voltage / operating power), voltage regulation under the chip, and finally dual-layer stacking with the above as potential avenues to spread heat dissipation.

I can't help but wonder, where exactly is that heat supposed to go on the underside of the chip? Modern CPUs practical float atop a bed of nails.

berbec 4/16/2025|
a second heatsink mounted the back of the chip? maybe the socket the chip in suck a way the back touches a copper plate attached to some heatpipes? plenty of options
BizarroLand 4/18/2025||
I mean, there's no real reason a chip has to be a wafer.

A toroidal shape would allow more interconnects to be interspaced throughout the design as well as more heat-transfer points alongside the data transfer interconnects.

Something like chiplet design where each logical section is a complete core or even an SOC with a robust interconnect to the next and previous section.

If that were feasible, you could build it onto a hollow tube structure so that heat could be piped out from all sides once you sandwich the chip in a wraparound cooler.

I guess the idea is more scifi than anything, though. I doubt anyone other than ARM or RISC-V would ever even consider the idea until some other competitor proves the value.

mikewarot 4/16/2025||
We could also explore the idea that Von Neumann's architecture isn't the best choice the future. Having trillions of transistors just waiting their turn to hand off data as fast as possible doesn't seem same to me.
esseph 4/16/2025||
What's your solution then?
mikewarot 4/18/2025||
Start with an FPGA, they're optimized for performance, but too optimized, and very hard to program.

Rip out all the special purpose bits that make it non-uniform, and thus hard to route.

Rip out all of the long lines and switching fabric that optimizes for delays, and replace it all with only short lines to the neighboring cells. This greatly reduces switching energy.

Also have the data needed for every compute step already loaded into the cells, eliminating the memory/compute bottleneck.

Then add a latch on every cell, so that you can eliminate race conditions, and the need to worry about timing down to the picosecond.

This results in a uniform grid of Look Up Tables (LUTS) that get clocked in 2 phases, like the colors of the chessboard. Each cell thus has stable inputs, as they all come from the other phase, which is latched.

I call it BitGrid.

I'd give it a 50/50 chance of working out in the real world. If it does, it'll mean cheap PetaFlops for everyone.

7bit 4/18/2025||
You should be working for Intel!
mikewarot 4/19/2025||
I tried, more than a decade ago to get the idea to them, but I didn't know the right insiders.
UltraSane 4/17/2025||
programming for anything than the Von Neumann architecture is very hard.
Legend2440 4/17/2025||
Generally true.

But neural networks are non-Von Neumann, and we 'program' them using backprop. This can also be applied to cellular automata.

pfdietz 4/16/2025||
One game that can be played is to use isotopically pure Si-28 in place of natural silicon. The thermal conductivity of Si-28 is 10% higher than natural Si at room temperature (but 8x higher at 26 K).
chasil 4/16/2025||
How difficult is the purification process? Is it as difficult as uranium hexafloride gas?

Yes, gas centrifuge appears to be a leading method.

'The purification starts with “simple” isotopic purification of silicon. The major breakthrough was converting this Si to silane (SiH4), which is then further refined to remove other impurities. The ultra-pure silane can then be fed into a standard epitaxy machine for deposition onto a 300-mm wafer.'

https://www.eejournal.com/article/silicon-purification-for-q...

rbanffy 4/16/2025||
Doesn’t silane like catching fire when it sees an oxygen molecule? The other day I heard about it being used as rocket fuel for lunar ISRU applications.

A rocket and a sandblaster at the same time.

philipkglass 4/16/2025||
This is no worse than before. All electronic grade silicon is already produced starting from silane or trichlorosilane, and both are about equally hazardous to handle. See this overview of producing purified silicon:

"Chemistry of the Main Group Elements - 7.10: Semiconductor Grade Silicon"

https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Inorganic_Chemistry/...

rbanffy 4/17/2025||
Thanks. I completely forgot how evil is semiconductor manufacturing.
HappyPanacea 4/16/2025||
How much does it costs to manufacture? Are there any other benefits from using isotopically pure Si-28? Are there any other isotopes used in common thermal conductive material that are more conductive?
pfdietz 4/18/2025|||
I understand isotopically pure Si-28 may be preferred for quantum computing devices. The Si-28 has no spin or magnetic moment, reducing the rate of decoherence of certain implementations of qubits.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/silicon-quantum-computing-purified...

pfdietz 4/16/2025|||
The point of improving the thermal conductivity of silicon is that silicon is what chips are made of instead of, say, diamond.

Of course cost would have to be acceptable.

HappyPanacea 4/16/2025||
I was thinking more about isotopes of copper than carbon but I can't find data about thermal conductivity of isotopically enriched copper.
pfdietz 4/16/2025||
I don't think there would be much difference because much of the conductivity of copper is from the conduction electrons, not phonons. Isotopic purification increases thermal conductivity in silicon because it decreases phonon scattering.

Isotopically pure diamond, now there's something to look at.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopically_pure_diamond

"The 12C isotopically pure, (or in practice 15-fold enrichment of isotopic number, 12 over 13 for carbon) diamond gives a 50% higher thermal conductivity than the already high value of 900-2000 W/(m·K) for a normal diamond, which contains the natural isotopic mixture of 98.9% 12C and 1.1% 13C. This is useful for heat sinks for the semiconductor industry."

ksec 4/16/2025||
With AI, both GPU and CPU are pushed to the absolute limit and we shall be putting 750W to 1000W per unit with liquid cooling in Datacenter within next 5 - 8 years.

I wonder if we can actually use those heat for something useful.

itishappy 4/16/2025||
It's going to be too low temperature for power production, but district heating should be viable!
formerly_proven 4/16/2025|||
The mainstream data center GPUs are already at 700 W and Blackwell sits at ~1 kW.
esseph 4/16/2025|||
We are looking at 600kW per rack, and liquid cooling is already deployed in many places.
AnimalMuppet 4/16/2025||
So, one power plant per aisle of a data center?
esseph 4/16/2025||
Well...

https://www.powermag.com/the-smr-gamble-betting-on-nuclear-t...

datadrivenangel 4/16/2025||
Attempts to use the waste heat for anything in a data center are likely very counter productive to actually cooling the chips
InDubioProRubio 4/17/2025||
I guess future designs will have a cooling ring integrated into the chiplets.. the dark silicon starts up, finds in the memory shared with the previous hot silcone the instructions and cache, computes till heat death, stores all it did in the successor chiplet - it all is on a ring like structure, that is always boiling in some cooling liquid its directly immersed in, going forever round and round. It reminds me of the Ian M. Banks setup of the fireplanet Echronedal in the player of games.
Havoc 4/16/2025||
Is there a reason we can’t put heat pipes directly into chips? Or underneath
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