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Posted by jwilk 6 days ago

Libxml2's "no security embargoes" policy(lwn.net)
298 points | 268 commentspage 2
neilv 5 days ago|
If you skim past the less-interesting project history, there's interesting description of some dynamics that apply to a lot of open source projects, including:

> Even if it is a valid security flaw, it is clear why it might rankle a maintainer. The report is not coming from a user of the project, and it comes with no attempt at a patch to fix the vulnerability. It is another demand on an unpaid maintainer's time so that, apparently, a security research company can brag about the discovery to promote its services.

> If Wellnhofer follows the script expected of a maintainer, he will spend hours fixing the bugs, corresponding with the researcher, and releasing a new version of libxml2. Sveshnikov and Positive Technologies will put another notch in their CVE belts, but what does Wellnhofer get out of the arrangement? Extra work, an unwanted CVE, and negligible real-world benefit for users of libxml2.

> So, rather than honoring embargoes and dealing with deadlines for security fixes, Wellnhofer would rather treat security issues like any other bug; the issues would be made public as soon as they were reported and fixed whenever maintainers had time. Wellnhofer also announced that he was stepping down as the libxslt maintainer and said it was unlikely that it would ever be maintained again. It was even more unlikely, he said, with security researchers ""breathing down the necks of volunteers.""

> [...] He agreed that ""wealthy corporations"" with a stake in libxml2 security issues should help by becoming maintainers. If not, ""then the consequence is security issues will surely reach the disclosure deadline (whatever it is set to) and become public before they are fixed"".

lukaslalinsky 5 days ago||
As a maintainer of several open source projects over my life, I really hated these so called security researchers and their CVEs. I routinely fixed more impacting bugs due to user reports, but when one of these companies found a big, they made a whole theater around it, while the impact being pretty small. Pretty much any bug, except maybe a typo in the UI, is a security bug. It gets tiring very soon. And with the CVEs comes a lot of publicity and a lot of demands.
mrweasel 5 days ago|
Does the security researchers provide you with patches, or is it more frequently "there's a bug here".

In the later case I'm wondering if there's an argument to be made for "Show me the code or shut up". Simply rejecting reports on security issue which are not also accompanied by a patch. I'm think, will it devalue the CVE on the researchers resume, if the project simply says no, on the grounds of not being a fix?

Probably not.

viraptor 5 days ago||
CVE is an index of vulnerabilities. Whether there's a patch and who made it is largely irrelevant in that context.
atemerev 5 days ago||
Don't like something? Fork and fix.

Unhappy with a maintainer? Fork and maintain it yourself.

Some open source code creates issues in your project? Fix it and try to upstream. Upstream is not accepted? Fork and announce the fix.

Unpaid open source developers owe you nothing, you can't demand anything, their work is already a huge charitable contribution to humanity. If you can do better — fork button is universally available. Don't forget to say thank you to original authors while you stay on the shoulders of giants.

throwaway2037 5 days ago||

    > ...there are currently four bugs marked with the security label in the libxml2 issue tracker. Three of those were opened on May 7 by Nikita Sveshnikov, a security researcher who works for a company called Positive Technologies.
I'm confused. Why doesn't Positive Technologies submit a patch or offer to pay the lead maintainer to implement a fix?

FYI, Wiki tells me:

    > Positive Technologies is a Russian information security research company and a global leader in cybersecurity.
jeroenhd 5 days ago||
The security researcher is paid to find vulnerabilities, not to fix them. These companies are selling code analysis to their customers and the more issues they find, the more they'll be worth.

When it comes to fixing the issues, their customers will have to beg/spam/threaten the maintainers until the problem is solved. They probably won't write a patch; after all, Apple, Google, and Microsoft are only small companies with limited funds.

brazzy 5 days ago|||
Because they don't use libxml2 and don't actually have any need for a fix. They only want to build a reputation as pentrsters by finding vulnerabilities in high profile projects
throwaway2037 5 days ago|||
I am replying to my own post instead of replying to all of the child posts:

The point of my original post... that I hoped someone would see/interpret: Reporting "security bugs" without a patch or an offer to pay the lead maintainer to implement a fix feels like blackmail in 2025. Yes, I know this will be a hugely controversial opinion amoungst HN crowd. Personally: I don't see a huge amount of commercial value in pure infosec research that does not include funds to develop or fund a patch. The primary purpose of these "pure" infosec research firms is to generate FOMO for enterprise clients who pay them for private patches or "support".

flomo 5 days ago|||
Perhaps you are imagining some free software bong(o drum) circle?

The big point is this is a critical component for Apple and Google (and maybe Microsoft), and nobody is paying any attention to it.

codedokode 5 days ago||
Because they have other things to do? Nobody pays them for fixing it too.
firesteelrain 5 days ago||
Understand the stance, but the big corps using it (Apple, Google, Microsoft) are using it and acknowledge it silently at risk. It's not entirely fair though, Google did make a donation.
troupo 5 days ago||
> It's not entirely fair though, Google did make a donation.

Yup. $10 000.

Remind me what the average Google salary is? Or how much profit Google made that year?

Or better still, what is the livable wage is where libxml maintainer lives? You know, the maintainer of the library used in the core Google Product?

firesteelrain 5 days ago||
I agree that $10,000 isn’t a meaningful investment given the scale of reliance.

What would a fair model look like? An open-source infrastructure endowment? Ongoing support contracts per critical library?

At the same time, I think there’s a tension in open source we don’t talk about enough: it’s built to be free and open to all, including the corporations we might wish were more generous. No one signed a contract!

As the article states, Libxml2 was widely promoted (and adopted) as the go-to XML parser. Now, the maintainer is understandably tired. There is now a sustainability problem that is more systemic than personal. How much did the creator of libxml benefit?

I don’t think we should expect companies to do the right thing just because they benefit and it isn’t how open source was meant to be and this isn’t how open source is supposed to work

But maybe that’s the real problem

troupo 5 days ago||
Yeah, open source funding is a tricky issue, and there are no good answers or solutions, unfortunately
burnt-resistor 5 days ago||
Like tipping someone a penny. If it's so critical to their business, then they can pay a pittance to sustain it.
firesteelrain 5 days ago||
This chart claims a lot of contributions (2020). It is certainly more than a penny.

https://www.statista.com/chart/25795/active-github-contribut...

"Microsoft is now the leading company for open source contributions on GitHub" (2016)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12504694

adastra22 5 days ago||
The article has the number. Google paid him $10k in a one-time grant.
h43z 5 days ago||
The only obstacle here appears to be the psychological issues of the maintainers themselves. I know it maybe hard to say "fuck off" but they will have to learn to say that to stop being exploited.
ytfghghvh 5 days ago||
> It was certainly promoted on the project web site as a capable and portable toolkit for the purpose of parsing XML.

This is a garbage criticism. It’s perfectly adequate for that for almost everyone. If you are shipping it in a browser to billions of people, that’s a very unique situation, and any security issues are a you problem.

Not sure if this is intended to be a “show both sides” journalism thing but it’s a totally asshole throwaway comment.

kiitos 5 days ago||

    The point is that libxml2 never had the quality to be used in mainstream browsers or operating systems to begin with. It all started when Apple made libxml2 a core component of all their OSes. Then Google followed suit and now even Microsoft is using libxml2 in their OS outside of Edge. This should have never happened. Originally it was kind of a growth hack, but now these companies make billions of profits and refuse to pay back their technical debt, either by switching to better solutions, developing their own or by trying to improve libxml2.
    The behavior of these companies is irresponsible. Even if they claim otherwise, they don't care about the security and privacy of their users. They only try to fix symptoms.
Hear, hear!
sorrythanks 5 days ago||
GPL was a good idea
jenadine 5 days ago|
I agree. But it doesn't fix this particular problem. GPL software also needs maintainers and can still have security issues.
heisenbit 5 days ago|
Bigger companies have either policies or have policies derived from regulatory demands on the software they are using for their products and services. Defects must be fixed within a certain timeframe. Software suppliers and external code must be vetted. Have such a widely used library explicitly not maintained in theory should make it a no-go area forcing either removal or ongoing explicit security audits - it may well be cheaper for any of them to take over the full maintenance load. Will be interesting to watch.

Also the not so relevant security bugs are not just costs to the developers but the library churn is also costing more and more users if the user is forced by policy to follow in a timely manner the latest versions in the name of "security".

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