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Posted by pseudolus 7/1/2025

Scientists identify culprit behind biggest-ever U.S. honey bee die-off(www.science.org)
186 points | 134 commentspage 2
arealaccount 7/1/2025|
I love that they attach a big $ number to the alarm in hopes that it will resonate with the powers at be.

> Tracking the rise of miticide resistance is critical, experts say. Honey bees pollinate more than 90 commercial crops in the United States, generate between $20 billion and $30 billion in agricultural revenue

lapetitejort 7/1/2025|
The only large number that would make the general populace care would be $30 watermelons.
jimt1234 7/1/2025||
Sorta related: If you're ever in Hawaii/Big Island, I highly recommend this place for the tour or just dropping by to taste some honey: https://bigislandbees.com
AdmiralAsshat 7/1/2025||
> U.S. beekeepers had a disastrous winter. Between June 2024 and January 2025, a full 62% of commercial honey bee colonies in the United States died, according to an extensive survey. It was the largest die-off on record, coming on the heels of a 55% die-off the previous winter.

Christ, do we even have any bees left at this point?

milliams 7/1/2025||
It would need to be put in the context of what a normal annual die-off is. I expect it's not 0%, and perhaps it's normal for keepers to need to re-establish some fraction of their hives each year.

Of course, 50-60% sounds alarmingly high, but I don't know enough to be sure.

Actually, I just followed the link in the article (good job detailing their sources!) and it looks like 40% is pretty typical, but with large error bars. 62% is definitely high, but not as earth shattering as it first appears.

humblebeekeeper 7/1/2025|||
In the US, honeybees aren't native, and the bees we really need to protect are the native bees.

That said, most beekeepers expect to lose 30-50% of their hives every year. But most honeybee hives can be split into two hives every year. So if you can double (or even potentially triple, quadruple) each hive every year, a loss of 50% isn't catastrophic.

mistrial9 7/1/2025||
you mean after the modern practice of truck shipping hives was commercially accepted, then "most beekeepers" expect that ??
humblebeekeeper 7/1/2025||
Prior to the langstroth hive, European beekeepers destroyed the hive entirely to harvest the honey. Mites and disease were less prevalent and insects were FAR less stressed by the environment.

The Langstroth hive was invented in the 1850s, and the first migratory commercial hives started in the US 50 years later.

In the 1940s we saw a steady decline in hives, but the hives really started seeing massive die offs in the 2000s.

So no, the timelines are not really due to shipping commercial hives. There's other, stronger factors at play.

RangerScience 7/1/2025|||
AFAIK, this is only commercial bees, which have a pile of stressors (such as being shipped places frequently). Non-commercial bees are doing "better" (I remember hearing that they're doing fine, but poking around now that doesn't seem to be the case).

The other issue is crop pollination, which AFAIK has heavy reliance on commercial bees.

tptacek 7/1/2025|||
To a first approximation ~all honeybees in North America are commercial honeybees; the way it was put on EconTalk a couple years back is, "if you see a honeybee in your yard, somebody owns it."
AStonesThrow 7/1/2025||
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maxerickson 7/1/2025|||
Most staples wind pollinate (corn, wheat, etc). Bees are needed for a lot of fruit and nut production though.
taeric 7/1/2025||
Framing of this fact is one you need to be careful with. Consider that your skin is replaced every 28 days. Stated differently, you completely lose all of your skin every month or so. Of course, it is replaced as rapidly, but if you only discuss the die off...

That is, you almost certainly need to know a lot more facts about bees before knowing the die off rate is useful.

WalterBright 7/1/2025||
I've let my yard grow wild, and there are a lot of flowers and a constant hum of bumblebees in the summer.
serguzest 7/1/2025||
There’s a truth we’re rarely taught in school and I find it deeply poetic: The vivid colors we see in flowers, even those beyond our vision in the ultraviolet, and the delicate fragrances that drift on the breeze they're not for us.

They are nature’s love songs, composed to seduce insects. All this beauty is a grand performance, meant to charm bugs into becoming messengers of life, carrying pollen from bloom to bloom.

Bees, though precious, are just one part of this ancient dance. Moths, beetles, butterflies, each plays a role in this quiet symphony of survival.

And yet, this balance is being disrupted. Greedy and short-sighted actions are damaging ecosystems that are far more complex than we understand.

But here’s the humbling part: Nature will endure. She always has. She’ll shake us off like dust, heal in silence, and bloom again with or without witnesses.

esafak 7/1/2025|
So we're waiting for bees to evolve resistance to these mites?
svota 7/1/2025|||
No, we're waiting for humans to die off so that bees don't live in these conditions. Eventually something will start to eat those mites, or the commercial honeybee will go extinct. One way or another, this problem won't exist.
serguzest 7/1/2025|||
bu yazdiklarimdan onu mu anladin aq otistigi. Hepimizi geberip gidecegiz doga devam edecek
bubbajones 7/1/2025||
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kevin_thibedeau 7/1/2025||
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tptacek 7/1/2025||
Maybe, but that couldn't be about honey bees, which are an invasive species in North America.
declan_roberts 7/1/2025|||
How did we get to the point that everything relies on this discretionary funding? We have some serious design flaws.
apical_dendrite 7/1/2025|||
Because there are some things that the market just won't do effectively. Basic science that takes decades to pay off is a good example. Somebody has to understand the biology so that decades later someone else can build a product.

Private foundations can pay for some of it - a lot of the green revolution was funded by the Rockefeller Foundation - but they don't have the resources of the federal government, and you're relying on the whim of a single family or individual.

Government-funded basic research has worked out really well for the US.

analog31 7/1/2025||||
It wasn't all that discretionary so long as the ruling faction was executing laws in good faith.
EasyMark 7/1/2025|||
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timr 7/1/2025|||
And yet, if you read between the lines, the funding cut had next to no impact on what is reported here. The third-party organization still did the work, it's not stated how the work was slowed (if at all), and the case that speeding it up would have affected the outcome is pretty weak -- remember, they’re doing a retrospective on something that has already happened, and the article points out repeatedly that they have no effective tools on the mites.

I understand why Science engages in activism like this, but sometimes they take it too far. Because the reality is that it’s not a matter of “bee research or no bee research”, it’s a matter of cutting this or cutting something else with the marginal dollar. It's not even clear from the article what kind of cuts were made to the program. The only mention of budget at all is a brief, unexplained sentence at the top of the article:

> As soon as scientists at the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) caught wind of the record-breaking die-offs, they sprang into action—but their efforts were slowed by a series of federal funding cuts and layoffs by President Donald Trump’s administration.

My guess is that the third-party organization (Project Apis m.) gets a grant from the USDA. But they probably also get funding from the industry, because this is an important part of industrial agriculture. It's the sort of lazy drop-in that you could do in literally any article involving a government-funded organization.

apical_dendrite 7/1/2025||
There has been a lot of chaos, and extremely poor treatment of employees throughout the federal government. For instance, firing people because they were in the first couple of years of their tenure and had fewer protections, but then lying to them and telling them it was because of their performance (without actually doing any performance reviews). Mass emails telling people to quit and find more productive jobs in the private sector. Firing, then re-hiring people when it turns out that their work was actually essential (this is a deliberate strategy from Elon and Vivek - they talked about it openly). Telling government workers that you want to put them "in trauma" (Vought). Arbitrarily cancelling important projects and re-directing people to do things like scrub websites of disfavored words.

If you have a small team of experts and you put a couple on administrative leave because you're trying to fire them, and a couple more retire or quit because they don't want to deal with the stress, and the remaining members of the team have to pick up the work, but they're also getting confusing and contradictory directions from their supervisors and are feeling threatened, you're basically going to have productivity crater.

timr 7/1/2025||
OK, just for the sake of argument, I grant you all of this. How did it slow the research paper described in this article?

Secondary question, equally important: Had the research been done however more quickly, what difference would it have made to the outcome?

apical_dendrite 7/1/2025|||
I wasn't involved in this research - all I can do is explain how scientific research done at federal labs has been disrupted in general. (Plus some things that I didn't mention, like bans on scientists attending conferences or publishing or communicating externally).
SV_BubbleTime 7/1/2025|||
It’s no use. A lot of people simply cannot help themselves.
lokar 7/1/2025|||
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inetknght 7/1/2025||
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wyldberry 7/1/2025||
Honeybees are not all bees, and are less important than wild/native ground bees[0]. By making this about trump, you are burying the lede here:

"Alarmingly, every single one of the mites the researchers screened was resistant to amitraz, the only viable mite-specific pesticide—or miticide—of its kind left in humans’ arsenal."

This is to be expected, eventually evolution will produce a small amount of a species that is resistant to a chemical, then those will likely be hyper successful at breeding. Honeybees are not native to the Americas, it seems like we've imported a major feast for these mites. Perhaps there's another organism that preys on these mites. Nature often provides the a cure with the poison.

[0] - https://choosenatives.org/articles/native-bees-need-buzz/

raphman 7/1/2025|||
A recent paper on this topic (same general message as on the linked website):

> We found compelling evidence that honey bee introductions indirectly decrease pollination by reducing nectar and pollen availability and competitively excluding visits from more effective native bees. In contrast, the direct impact of honey bee visits on pollination was negligible, and, if anything, negative. Honey bees were ineffective pollinators, and increasing visit quantity could not compensate for inferior visit quality.

https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ecy....

Also:

> Feral bee colonies usually just die after 18-24 months. That's long enough to swarm repeatedly, so mite pressure isn't really a threat to honeybees as a species in the wild. They live long enough to reproduce and almost nobody tries to harvest honey from them for sale. There's basically no chance that mites will make feral honeybees go extinct. Rather, mite parasitism's an economic problem that threatens commercial beekeeping [...]. Keeping bees alive with both mites and pesticides, especially in the face of climate change, is really hard if you need to make money doing it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Beekeeping/comments/10jtmgk/wild_be...

apical_dendrite 7/1/2025||||
Yes - species becoming resistant to our efforts to contain them is the root problem. It's a weakness in an agricultural system that's dependent on pesticides. But we set up systems to address that problem. If those systems can't work as effectively anymore because they've lost the resources and the institutional knowledge, that is also a big, important story.
kjkjadksj 7/1/2025||
Resistance towards something without active pressure is quickly lost in populations due to the fitness cost of maintaining an unused resistance mechanism. The solution is sufficient rotation of pesticides.
lgas 7/1/2025||||
> Perhaps there's another organism that preys on these mites. Nature often provides the a cure with the poison.

Have we learned nothing from the old lady who swallowed the fly?

lmeyerov 7/1/2025|||
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wyldberry 7/1/2025|||
Again, burying the lede of the article which is about the last remaining pesticide that was effectively targeting the mite colonies. Six months of lost work is not the make or break for this, as this mite has been identified as a problem for at least a decade. This is a *treatment* of the mite problem, for which we have over a decade of research, proposed solutions, etc on.

That said: this mite problem is because of our industrial agricultural practices by bringing invasive species into the country to create a honey industry. The solutions to this are generally a combination of the below (at a high level):

1. Evolutionary arms race where scientists in academia and industry consistently try to find or invent new molecules that will harm nearly exclusively the mite, or perhaps genetically engineer a more resistant honeybee

2. Improve sterilization practices and protect existing swarms, and quickly identify mite infestations that could wipe the colony out.

3. Change of keeping practices to more accurately mimic nature, which is a challenge, because these bees are not native to the ecosystem, and native bees do not face these pressures because of a variety of reasons in the colony life-cycle.

This article is not about how impactful the "efficiency improvements" the government did by removing stability and the ability to plan long-term that occurred earlier this year. That was, at best, a drop in the bucket for this specific problem. You gotta stop looking at who is currently in charge when you're looking at a problem that initially was identified in 1987[0].

[0] - https://tsusinvasives.org/home/database/varroa-destructor

bananalychee 7/1/2025|||
The SLF infestation was met with a whole lot of handwaving, of "look how dangerous this is", but not much in terms of concrete solutions. Then the population naturally stabilized as predators started feeding on them with basically no action taken other than some city weirdoes stomping on them. Turns out you don't need almighty Scientists to do Nature's job all the time. If this situation is different I'm open to the idea that intervention is needed, but all this parroting of uninformed BlueSky propaganda claiming everything is going to fall apart any time now, just you wait, is getting old. In January planes were falling out of the sky because Trump, in February no more social security because Trump, in March we can't forecast the weather anymore because Trump, in April staglation because Trump, in May World War 3 because Trump, in June forest fires because Trump, and in July Trump is killing the bees. What will the madman do next!
lmeyerov 7/1/2025|||
I came from a town where farmers work with university scientists and the ones who don't are basically doing tourist farm stands. Likewise, I see the NSF + NIH funding cuts from fellow scientists, eg, cancer researchers, being cut, and hear from multiple agency leaders navigating it but cannot speak out publicly. But feel good about pretending scientists do nothing and modern medicine and food supply isn't due to them.

And yes, if you think the scientists self-reporting on their funding cuts are fake, the objective truth problem is most definitely you.

apical_dendrite 7/1/2025||||
We're able to feed the world's population today because scientists developed disease-resistant and high-yield varieties of wheat, rice, and other crops, and because scientists developed pesticides and fertilizers. To feed a growing population, particularly with the threat of plant diseases constantly mutating, we basically have to keep doing that scientific work forever.
bluGill 7/1/2025||
Most of those scientists work for the private seed companies not the government. Sure they started from government research but they then turned those ideas into real seeds.
exe34 7/1/2025|||
Nature...uh...finds a way. It's just that next time, we might not get to be around to find out.
tptacek 7/1/2025|||
Honeybees are an invasive species in North America.
pfdietz 7/1/2025|||
All the major staple crops are wind pollinated, not insect pollinated.

The ultimate solution to this problem will be going back to a suite of native pollinators rather than depending on non-native honeybees.

humblebeekeeper 7/1/2025|||
Are staple crops the bar though? Like, I love rice, wheat, and potatoes, but I would be real sad to not have all the vegetables that are not wind pollinated. We've survive, but I don't think that's the bar, imo.
pfdietz 7/1/2025||
When someone claims "Bees die = we starve" then, yes, staple crops are the bar.
bluGill 7/1/2025||
Most staple crops are not bee polinated. Wheat is ant polinated (so I've been told by local naturalists who should have the background to know - others are claiming wind).
pfdietz 7/1/2025||
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat

"The flowers are wind-pollinated, with over 99% of pollination events being self-pollinations and the rest cross-pollinations.[6] "

No mention of ants, and the reference [6] says "Normally at anthesis, the lemma and palea are pushed apart temporally (lasting for 8–30 min) by lodicules swelling, and the pollen dehiscences from anthers and falls on the ovary to accomplish fertilization (de Vries, 1971)."

firesteelrain 7/1/2025||||
Partially. Corn is the big one that requires wind or humans. Rest of the staples do not

Potatoes and sweet potatoes are tubers. I started growing this year and learned a lot about it just from my backyard. No pollination

For example cucumbers not staple nor are peppers. Cucumbers need a bee or insect to pollinate unless the type that doesn’t. But they are low in calories so not staple and more perishable

snarf21 7/1/2025||||
While fruits, vegetables and nuts can be pollinated by wind, that won't work at the scale and yields that our aggro-industrial complex needs. If it weren't required, almond growers wouldn't pay to have millions of hives transported to California each year to pollinate their trees.
gausswho 7/1/2025|||
Aside from almonds what other crops are most bee-dependent?
snarf21 7/4/2025||
Blueberries, Cherries, Apples, Cranberries, Avocados, Melons, Cucumbers, Squash & Pumpkins are heavily dependent on bees but other crops use them too.
pfdietz 7/1/2025|||
I said staple crops (which is relevant when someone is claiming that "bees die" implies "we all starve"). It would be very sad to not have insect pollinated crops, but it wouldn't be an existential disaster.
asmodeuslucifer 7/1/2025|||
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contravariant 7/1/2025||
I don't mind using AI to help gather information but did you even read this?
jawilson2 7/1/2025||
I just logged on for the first time in months to downvote this too. If HN is going to be full of threads of people reposting AI garbage slop I will quickly find somewhere else to...do whatever it is I do here. Keep your AI bullshit to yourself, I do not trust a word of ANY of it.
baggachipz 7/1/2025||
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climatenufties 7/1/2025|
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