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Posted by PaulHoule 14 hours ago

Effectiveness of trees in reducing temperature, outdoor heat exposure in Vegas(iopscience.iop.org)
137 points | 105 comments
tomcam 4 hours ago|
There is a place in So Cal now called The Aspens South Coast we lived in 30 years ago. It has (had?) an incredibly dense concentration of trees, something I’ve not seen since in that region, which is of course desert.

This time of year when you opened the gate that separated the treed interior from the parking lot you felt like the air conditioning had been turned on. We have very fond memories of the place. Its only disadvantage for me was that spring caused my allergies to go crazy.

Totally worth it.

hervature 12 hours ago||
Genuine question for people in the field. My understanding is that the cooling effect of trees is primarily driven by evaporative cooling. That is, the shade effect only really exists because the plant does not shrivel up and die due to storing water. How much more effective are trees vs. big swamp coolers? Even in this article, they admit that daytime cooling of half a degree requires 3 times more water.
throwaway41597 1 hour ago||
Trees excel at harvesting water. When you water a tree, there is evaporative cooling like an artificial cooler but during the night, the dew falls back on the leaves and the ground where some of it finds its way back to the trees (possibly via an invertebrate first). Also the reflectiveness of leaves helps. Then there's the soil where layers of dead leaves, wood and others accumulate, sequester CO2 and create a sponge. Finally, by virtue of making the region cooler, rain is more likely to fall. Humans can probably engineer something better but the bar is high.
zamadatix 12 hours ago|||
There is something to be said for the parts about shading the surface too though. You're unlikely to cool an entire desert a significant amount with water you bring in but if that's something that happens as part of keeping the actual surfaces in the city cooler during peak heat times on top of the air cooling effects of evaporation then the sum result is greater than the parts in terms of effect.

Of course it's Vegas, I wouldn't be surprised if we decided to make the downtown completely indoors so we could just run AC in the streets too. It's not exactly the city of practicality.

gsf_emergency_2 5 hours ago|||
>on top of the air cooling effects of evaporation

I think you meant to say *on top of shade* because blocking the sun is the main effect here (the geometry makes more sense too!)

Less confusing phrase from abstract which implies that the 0.5deg evaporative cooling is almost a rounding error:

  during the day, trees provide significant shade by intercepting solar radiation, reducing mean radiant temperature (up to 16 °C)
bmacho 3 hours ago||

   during the day, trees provide significant shade by intercepting solar radiation, reducing mean radiant temperature (up to 16 °C)
Sadly they work the opposite way at night, they don't allow SPACE to cool the ground. A textil/plastic plate moved automatically can provide more cold, if that's the goal.
bobthepanda 3 hours ago|||
It really depends on how broad and high the tree canopy is; you don’t need super high tree density to provide a lot of shade.

The main benefit over other solutions is that properly selected trees require very little upkeep from humans, unlike anything mechanical or requiring movement. Though I imagine that is less the case in Vegas.

gsf_emergency_2 3 hours ago|||
To me what seems too good to be possible is the triple combo of shade, radiative cooling, and water harvesting

Only ambient sunlight needed here, but they'd have to make the panels horizontal (indeed, curtained at night like you say) somehow:

https://www.thebrighterside.news/post/mits-high-tech-hydroge...

Edit I guess the low-maintenance option might be some kind of giant variegated Madagascan succulent

sandworm101 10 hours ago||||
>> the downtown completely indoors so we could just run AC in the streets too.

So ... a shopping mall? Many cities do this already, linking various public indoor spaces by walkways/tunnels. Also those cities where the air outside is too cold. A few canadian universities link buildings with tunnels so students can avoid going outside.

lmz 8 hours ago||
Also: Toronto's PATH - https://www.toronto.ca/explore-enjoy/visitor-toronto/path-to...
sneak 8 hours ago||||
If you cover the roof in solar, it will generate more than sufficient power to air condition it.
trhway 10 hours ago|||
They do outdoor AC in [some places in some] parks in Qatar.
firesteelrain 10 hours ago|||
Sounds like Qatar. Innovative and expensive.
saagarjha 1 hour ago||
Qatar is basically Vegas if it had more money.
chrisweekly 10 hours ago|||
Under the sand on the beach, too!
obblekk 11 hours ago|||
In the abstract it discusses that most of the effect (16deg Celsius) is from reduced radiative heating and only a few degrees from evaporation.

Mostly the benefit is instead of having the concrete under you absorb and emit the sun, the leaves above you do.

This dramatically reduces the heat we feel at human height.

wyldfire 10 hours ago|||
> the effect (16deg Celsius)

Did I read that right? 16°C seems like an enormous effect.

Seems like trees would be a small investment to effectively get "outdoor AC-ish"?

EDIT: for those of us who are more comfortable with Freedom Units, that's like going from 104°F to 75°F!

manmal 3 hours ago|||
Yes, and cities with lots of trees are way more livable due to this. Planners in our town seem to hate trees with a passion, thank god we‘re moving away from this concrete desert.
bobthepanda 3 hours ago||||
The problem is that to get these effects you need large canopies of trees, and to get that to happen the trees have to take the space of something else. For street trees it takes away land from parking or traffic lanes; for properties it occupies both horizontal and vertical square footage since the sky above the tree needs to be clear. These are unpopular with some political affiliations and interest groups.
Ar-Curunir 14 minutes ago||
Replacing inefficient street parking and wide roads with trees is a straightforward win.
BLKNSLVR 6 hours ago|||
Obligatory response to 'Freedom Units' for those who haven't seen it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYqfVE-fykk
trhway 10 hours ago|||
Even without any evaporative effect, the air cooling of leaves (at least bringing them to the surrounding air temperature) happens more easily than that of concrete pavement due to height and larger surface area. The concrete can easily get heated much hotter than the air at even 10-20ft.

Wrt. water consumption - Mediterranean species like say olive trees are kind of optimized for low water consumption, by for example having leaves covered with wax-like stuff decreasing evaporation.

gsf_emergency_2 9 hours ago||
MIT should deploy their desert water harvesting tech in LV[0]

they just need to figure a way to reorient their panels to provide shade?

[0] only sunlight needed

https://www.thebrighterside.news/post/mits-high-tech-hydroge...

Re: olives, hopefully the terpenes can also help cloud formation

cryzinger 11 hours ago|||
The increased water usage is tough because we're serious about water reclamation here in Vegas, but you can't reclaim water lost to evaporation, which is why there are policies (and serious fines) around excessive landscape watering. It might not be a worthwhile tradeoff, especially if there are alternate cooling methods that don't involve water loss.
photonthug 11 hours ago||
Trees are great, but ultimately a pretty ridiculous idea if the goal is to create shade, even if you're not worried about water consumption. Avoiding concrete walls or overhangs is smart because you don't want the thermal mass.. but of course you can build these things out of fabric or thin metal.

The funny thing is, if you build a wall or canopy to avoid the water consumption plus literally waiting a decade for a tree to get tall.. now you're probably in violation of your HOA height restrictions, etc. Desert cities need to basically drop the idea of conforming to the typical expectations of visitors and newcomers by trying to add greenery. It's better to add shade, dig underground, build wind-catchers[1], salsabils[2]. There's tons of basic things like making sure roof surfaces are more reflective, and more strategic architectural things[3] that can be done to improve things and the techniques have been used forever

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windcatcher [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salsabil_(fountain) [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_cooling

cryzinger 9 hours ago||
You know how a lot of classic midcentury modern houses (which you can still find in downtown Vegas!) have those kind of lattice-y decorative walls and panels? Are those actually functional for reducing heat and not just cool-looking?
kitesay 5 hours ago|||
How to Dress and Undress your Home | LOW←TECH MAGAZINE

https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2025/06/dressing-and-undre...

bigbacaloa 6 hours ago|||
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gsf_emergency_2 8 hours ago|||
It's confusing phrasing.

Increasing *evaporative* cooling by 0.5deg requires 3x more water, but shade alone is the *main* mechanism,it doesn't require water.

>during the day, trees provide significant shade by intercepting solar radiation, reducing mean radiant temperature (up to 16 °C)

PaulHoule 11 hours ago|||
The point of that article is that in many places the evaporative cooling is the main thing but in Vegas the water situation is such that it's more about the shade so the optimal tree is something that gives shade but doesn't need a lot of water.

Right where I am sitting now I have an LED strip above my desk and when I have my shirt off (right now) I can very definitely feel the radiant energy when it is on, so if it is really hot I either turn it off or switch it to green because the eye is most sensitive to green light. In fact, as I'm writing this, I just set the backlight on the 55-inch TV I use as a computer monitor down so I'd feel more comfortable.

sidewndr46 10 hours ago||
So an umbrella?
PaulHoule 10 hours ago||
Yeah, but like an umbrella made by something like Drexler's nanotechology.
gsf_emergency_2 9 hours ago||
How about something more ... Realistic

https://www.thebrighterside.news/post/mits-high-tech-hydroge...

bmacho 3 hours ago||
That's the opposite of a tree, which turns drinking water into nothing
idbehold 12 hours ago|||
Swamp coolers can't generally provide shade.
jetru 12 hours ago||
I got a great business idea now.
kkfx 6 hours ago|||
Trees acts for their little thermal mass and large surface exposed to air, essentially IR radiation from the Sun can't much reach the ground or humans under trees (if they are large and dense enough) and the part of the radiation touching trees get quickly dispersed in the air (climbing the atmosphere).

The limited effect is that cities are dense and can't be made as forest so trees can't do nothing for buildings taller them them.

sandworm101 10 hours ago|||
Trees are also vertical structures. Any vertical structure will absorb some of the light, turning it into heat, then be cooled by rising air. This keeps the heat from getting to the ground, with or without evaporation. In other words, instead of the sidewalk getting hot, something 20+ feet in the air get hot. Hot air rises and the air near the ground stays cooler.
metalman 10 hours ago|||
part of the cooling effect that trees produce is from photosynthesis, the percentage of light converted to plant matter can be as high as 1.5% more will be reflected, and the shaded area will of course,be shaded, and then there is transpiration of water, which varys greatly with species.other effects will be due to the built environment, where a lot of asphalt and concrete could mostly obliterate the real effects of a few trees. from wiki "The average rate of energy captured by global photosynthesis is approximately 130 terawatts, which is about eight times the total power consumption of human civilization"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthesis

cyberax 11 hours ago|||
There is literally no difference. Water is water, and its specific heat of evaporation doesn't depend on the way it's evaporated.
aaron695 2 hours ago||
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msgodel 2 hours ago||
I recently bought some wooded land and unlike most people I know I've been extremely selective cutting down trees on it.

It's actually comfortable to be outside there. Even in the summer it's almost completely shaded. I was kind of surprised how extreme it is. I know trees make it harder to work and if you're hiring people they probably can't tolerate it but since I'm doing everything myself I don't have to clear everything and wait for it to grow back.

b00ty4breakfast 13 hours ago||
I'm sure any future endeavor to plant trees in the goddamn desert will have no negative environmental consequences at all. It's not as if the city in the goddamn desert is already in the middle of a regional water crisis as of last year or anything...

https://www.knpr.org/show/knprs-state-of-nevada/2024-08-29/w...

davidw 12 hours ago||
Most places in the west, the water used for 'municipal' stuff is a small fraction of the total.

For instance where I live east of the Cascades, in the dry part of Oregon, only like 10% of the water used goes to the cities.

https://www.centraloregonlandwatch.org/update/2021/5/5/droug...

Street trees are hugely beneficial and if you want to cut something (ha ha), you want to look at things like lawns or golf courses.

PaulDavisThe1st 12 hours ago|||
In New Mexico and Arizona, 7% of water is for residential use, another 7% is for retail, commercial and power generation. 75% goes to agriculture.

Trees in cities are not about reducing water usage by any significant amount. They are still lovely, though.

tshaddox 11 hours ago|||
> In 2014, Southern Nevada’s gross water demand was about 205 gallons per capita per day (GPCD). In the region, single- and multi-family households account for 60 percent of water consumption—70 percent of which is used for landscaping.

I found this quote in this 2016 PDF from the EPA:

https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2017-02/documents/ws...

mitb6 9 hours ago||
That's because that doc is talking about Southern Nevada (read: Vegas) in isolation, 78% of Nevada water usage is agriculture (followed by 13% residential, 7% mining)

https://extension.unr.edu/publication.aspx?PubID=4764

Eavolution 3 hours ago|||
This is relevant though towards the argument that Vegas isn't typical in it's water consumption and trees may well have a much more detrimental effect than in other places.
tshaddox 8 hours ago|||
True, and also 75% of Nevada’s population is in the Las Vegas metro area.
smus 7 hours ago||
You understand that factoid strengthens the point of the person you're replying to right
tshaddox 2 hours ago||
I am not attempting to strengthen or weaken anyone’s points. Not even regarding the definition of the word “factoid!”
whartung 12 hours ago|||
Having lived in the desert, and not talking Vegas, but Nevada desert where folks bought cheap lots, dragged a single or double wide trailer into it, and started a life.

Trees were the first thing planted. Fast growing trees, placed to cast shade on the house.

After a few years, those dirt lots transformed into some very nice properties where sitting outside in the shade with the desert zephyrs rustling the leaves provide a very nice, idyllic place for conservation or reading.

ethagnawl 11 hours ago||
There are a few of these plots outside of Crestone, CO that I've always dreamed of visiting. They truly look like oases and it must be surreal to sit in the shade and read while looking out onto the surrounding desert.
jameslk 11 hours ago|||
Southern Nevada uses a tiny amount of water compared to most states, about 2% of the total that’s apportioned from the CO river, and recycles about 40% of it. For indoor usage, 99% of water is recycled.

I agree growing things in the desert may be inefficient, but speaking for the CO river, that problem is in California and Arizona.

https://www.snwa.com/water-resources/where-water-comes-from/...

https://lvgea.org/water/

sorcerer-mar 12 hours ago|||
Agriculture is the problem, not urban trees
Henchman21 12 hours ago|||
Not people attempting to live in a desert?
cryzinger 11 hours ago|||
Vegas is hardcore about not wasting water because the water we do capture gets treated and put back in Lake Mead :)

https://www.cleanwaterteam.com/about-us/who-we-are

> [Las Vegas] used 38 billion gallons less water in 2024 than in 2002, despite a population increase of approximately 829,000 residents during that time. This represents a 55 percent decline in the community’s per capita water use since 2002.

https://www.lvvwd.com/conservation/measures/index.html

PaulDavisThe1st 12 hours ago||||
The earliest human civilizations where all located in deserts. It is not a foreign thing to our species at all.

However, large scale commercial agriculture in desert areas without significant ground water - that's a new thing, and it's a problem.

fc417fc802 8 hours ago|||
Outside of greenhouses. It's only an issue in an open field. Once properly enclosed the high energy availability is a major upside.
bigd34lh3r3 11 hours ago|||
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photonthug 12 hours ago||||
Yes, because living in the desert is absurd and obviously unnatural. Setting aside of course 3,000 years of civilization in Egypt. While we're at it, let's also unpack all these skyscrapers in New York and Tokyo and make sure no one is living at any height greater than the monkeys in the trees.
lazyasciiart 11 hours ago|||
The Nile is, uh, enormously relevant to Egyptian civilization.
photonthug 11 hours ago||
Wait until you hear about the mighty Colorado. The Hoover dam wasn't just built to imprison Decepticons you know
RhysU 10 hours ago||
What about the Decepticons he or she has yet to meet?
dukeofdoom 8 hours ago|||
Egypt went from 8 million to 80 million in the last century. In large part because of the rest of the world (massive grain imports from Ukraine ... for example). But it can obviously work, thanks to globalization and how cheap it's to transport things by container ships.

Desalination that runs off of Solar panels makes it pretty viable for places like Dubai to exist. The cheap solar energy from the Desert, makes it attractive for future data centers to be placed there. Also, Ancient Egypt had slaves. A lot of the modern middle eastern states rely on cheap labour from India and Afghanistan. And Oil money ...

Analemma_ 10 hours ago|||
I think doing agriculture in a desert is more ridiculous than living there, but the Central Valley exists all the same.
anyonecancode 8 hours ago||
My understanding is that agriculture in the desert works because of all the sunlight, so if water is provided it ends up actually being really good for growing plants.

(also, I don't think the Central Valley is actually a desert?)

dendrite9 6 hours ago|||
Much of it used to be a seasonal wetland/lake until the water was diverted into canals or pumped over the mountains.
viccis 7 hours ago|||
>so if water is provided

^ the rub ^

readthenotes1 12 hours ago|||
It's not an either or type situation
AnimalMuppet 12 hours ago||
No, but it is an 80-20 type situation. 80% of the water use is agricultural.
agumonkey 12 hours ago|||
There may be counter intuitive effects in there. Plants roots creates water buffer zone underground that can capture some of rainfall and make better use of it, allowing larger growth.
gsf_emergency_2 9 hours ago|||
MIT should deploy their desert water tech in LV[0]

Since the point of the trees has been discovered to be just shade and not evaporative cooling, they just need to figure a way to reorient their panels?

[0] only sunlight needed

https://www.thebrighterside.news/post/mits-high-tech-hydroge...

gerdesj 12 hours ago|||
Perhaps the desert will repent its desertness and accept that sand, minimal water and a massive diurnal temperature range will somehow become amical towards good old Plane trees.

OK, let's go full mad world: a vast web of PV for power. Is there a handy massive water resource deep underground? If not then moisture in the air will need redeploying. Tall towers and probably gobs of power are indicated for that.

AlotOfReading 12 hours ago|||
Trees grow in the desert. Mesquites, pines, junipers and more are all widespread in areas around Vegas. You don't need a tropical paradise to have vegetation, as the native forests of Arizona and Utah show.
PaulDavisThe1st 12 hours ago|||
> Is there a handy massive water resource deep underground

There was.

We've been sucking them dry for a century or more, everywhere they exist.

ASalazarMX 12 hours ago||
There are proven methods for growing plants and trees in arid regions [0], but they have disadvantages which will become more evident as desertification expands with global warming. I agree that forcing non-native trees there is a losing battle in the long run.

If people were really serious about living in deserts in a sustainable way, they can't expect to have decorative greenery or classic architecture. A society as advanced as ours should be able to make compromises that allow modern comforts while adapting so well to their environment that the cities would look almost alien.

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_greening

PaulDavisThe1st 12 hours ago||
Not alien. Arabic, Spanish, mid-mediterranean, Puebloan, and a few more.

The architecture has existed for centuries, maybe even millenia. Some of us already live that way.

The irony is that the key thing - large thermal mass - has now become the province of only those with lots of money, or those with no money. Everyone in the middle is stuck with silly construction options for a desert climate.

Raphell 9 hours ago||
I don’t think planting trees is only for cooling things down. Sometimes it’s just about helping people feel like they can go outside. In really hot places, even a bit of shade can change your mind about stepping out.
konsalexee 4 hours ago||
This is a repeating study, seeing this again and again, so not sure about its novelty.

In Europe we even assigned our first "Chief Heat Officer", which makes total sense.

nunodonato 2 hours ago|
what does he do?
asmor 12 hours ago||
That captcha sure reduces the effectiveness of me reading that by 100%.
6Az4Mj4D 9 hours ago||
I saw video last week in India there was similar experiment done in sun the temperature 45 degrees C and 30 step walk under the tree the temperature 36 degrees C. We need more trees as an easy solution
gumbojuice 4 hours ago|
I hope there would be enforced regulation around this kind of thing in cities in India. In residential areas, it's common that your house takes up almost all of your available plot space, and on top of that mostly constructed from concrete.

Air temperature is already high (e.g. 36C at my location just now), and radiant heat from sun and concrete can make the felt temperature more like 60C.

It's sad that new real-estate layouts continue to be approved, which will only be good for this type of dense concrete hell.

westonplatter0 12 hours ago|
I remember seeing similar heat reduction claims in a more tropical, non desert env. https://reasonstobecheerful.world/green-corridors-medellin-c...
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