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Posted by todsacerdoti 7/4/2025

Nvidia won, we all lost(blog.sebin-nyshkim.net)
995 points | 571 commentspage 5
PoshBreeze 7/5/2025|
> The RTX 4090 was massive, a real heccin chonker. It was so huge in fact, that it kicked off the trend of needing support brackets to keep the GPU from sagging and straining the PCIe slot.

This isn't true. People were buying brackets with 10 series cards.

tonyhart7 7/5/2025||
Consumer GPU feels like an "paper launch" for the past years

that's like they purposely not selling because they allocated 80% of their production to enterprise only

I just hope that new fabs operate early as possible because these price is insane

jes5199 7/5/2025||
with Intel also shitting the bed, it seems like AMD is poised to pick up “traditional computing” while everybody else runs off to chase the new gold rush. Presumably there’s still some money in desktops and gaming rigs?
alganet 7/4/2025||
Right now, all silicon talk is bullshit. It has been for a while.

It became obvious when old e-waste Xeons were turned into viable, usable machines, years ago.

Something is obviously wrong with this entire industry, and I cannot wait for it to pop. THIS will be the excitement everyone is looking for.

bigyabai 7/5/2025||
A lot of those Xeon e-waste machines were downright awful, especially for the "cheap gaming PC" niche they were popular in. Low single-core clock speeds, low memory bandwidth for desktop-style configurations and super expensive motherboards that ran at a higher wattage than the consumer alternatives.

> THIS will be the excitement everyone is looking for.

Or TSMC could become geopolitically jeopardized somehow, drastically increasing the secondhand value of modern GPUs even beyond what they're priced at now. It's all a system of scarcity, things could go either way.

alganet 7/5/2025||
They were awful compared to newer models, but for the price of nothing, pretty good deal.

If no good use is found for high-end GPUs, secondhand models will be like AOL CDs.

bigyabai 7/5/2025||
Sure, eventually. Then in 2032, you can enjoy the raster performance that slightly-affluent people in 2025 had for years.

By your logic people should be snatching up the 900 and 1000-series cards by the truckload if the demand was so huge. But a GTX 980 is like $60 these days, and honestly not very competitive in many departments. Neither it nor the 1000-series have driver support nowadays, so most users will reach for a more recent card.

alganet 7/5/2025||
There's no zero-cost e-waste like that anymore, it was a once-time thing.

Also, it's not "a logic", it's not a cosumer recomendation. It was a fluke in the industry that to me, represents a symptom.

gizajob 7/4/2025||
Do you have a timeframe for the pop? I need some excitement.
alganet 7/4/2025|||
More a sequence of potential events than a timeframe.

High-end GPUs are already useless for gaming (a low-end GPU is enough), their traditional source of demand. They're floating on artificial demand for a while now.

There are two markets that currently could use them: LLMs and Augmented Reality. Both of these are currently useless, and getting more useless by the day.

CPUs are just piggybacking on all of this.

So, lots of things hanging on unrealized promises. It will pop when there is no next use for super high-end GPUs.

War is a potential user of such devices, and I predict it could be the next thing after LLMs and AR. But then if war breaks out in such a scale to drive silicon prices up, lots of things are going to pop, and food and fuel will boom to such a magnitude that will make silicon look silly.

I think it will pop before it comes to the point of war driving it, and it will happen within our lifetimes (so, not a Nostradamus-style prediction that will only be realized long-after I'm dead).

rightbyte 7/4/2025|||
I don't see how GPU factories could be running in the event of war "in such a scale to drive silicon prices up". Unless you mean that supply will be low and people scavanging TI calculators for processors to make boxes playing Tetris and Space Invaders.
alganet 7/5/2025||
Why not?

This is the exact model in which WWII operated. Car and plane supply chains were practically nationalized to support the military industry.

If drones, surveillance, satellites become the main war tech, they'll all use silicon, and things will be fully nationalized.

We already have all sorts of hints of this. Doesn't need a genius to predict that it could be what happens to these industries.

The balance with food and fuel is more delicate though. A war with drones, satellites and surveillance is not like WWII, there's a commercial aspect to it. If you put it on paper, food and fuel project more power and thus, can move more money. Any public crisis can make people forget about GPUs and jeopardize the process of nationalization that is currently being implemented, which still depends on relatively peaceful international trade.

newsclues 7/5/2025|||
CPU and GPU compute will be needed for military use processing the vast data from all sorts of sensors. Think about data centres crunching satellite imagery for trenches, fortifications and vehicles.
alganet 7/5/2025||
> satellite imagery for trenches, fortifications and vehicles

Dude, you're describing the 80s. We're in 2025.

GPUs will be used for automated surveillance, espionage, brainwashing and market manipulation. At least that's what the current batch of technologies implies.

The only thing stopping this from becoming a full dystopia is that delicate balance with food and fuel I mentioned earlier.

It has become pretty obvious that entire wealthy nations can starve if they make the wrong move. Turns out GPUs cannot produce calories, and there's a limit to how much of a market you can manipulate to produce calories for you.

newsclues 7/6/2025||
2025 Ukraine war.

There are satellites and ISR platforms taking images and data and data centres are processing that information into actionable targets.

rightbyte 7/5/2025|||
> Why not?

Bombs that fly between continents or are launched from submarines for any "big scale" war.

alganet 7/5/2025||
I don't see how this is connected to what you said before.
rightbyte 7/5/2025||
My point is that GPU factories are big static targets with sensitive supply chains and thus have no strategic importance in being so easy to distrupt.
alganet 7/5/2025||
So are airplane and car factories. I already explained all of this, what keeps the supply chain together, and what their strategic value is.
rightbyte 7/5/2025||
I have no clue if we agree with eachother or not?
selfhoster11 7/5/2025||||
Local LLMs are becoming more popular and easier to run, and Chinese corporations are releasing extremely good models of all sizes under MIT or similar terms in many cases. There amount of VRAM is the main limiter, and it would help with gaming too.
alganet 7/5/2025||
Gaming needs no additional VRAM.

From a market perspective, LLMs sell GPUs. Doesn't even matter if they work or not.

From the geopolitical tensions perspective, they're the perfect excuse to create infrastructure for a global analogue of the Great Firewall (something that the Chinese are pioneers of, and catching up to the plan).

From the software engineering perspective, LLMs are a nuissance, a distraction. They harm everyone.

selfhoster11 7/5/2025||
> Gaming needs no additional VRAM.

Really? What about textures? Any ML that the new wave of games might use? For instance, while current LLMs powering NPC interactions would be pretty horrible, what about in 2 years time? You could have arbitrary dialogue trees AND dynamically voiced NPCs or PCs. This is categorically impossible without more VRAM.

> the perfect excuse to create infrastructure for a global analogue of the Great Firewall

Yes, let's have more censorship and kill the dream of the Internet even deader than it already is.

> From the software engineering perspective, LLMs are a nuissance, a distraction. They harm everyone.

You should be aware that reasonable minds can differ in this issue. I won't defend companies forcing the use of LLMs (it would be like forcing use of vim or any other tech you dislike), but I disagree about being a nuisance, distraction, or a universal harm. It's all down to choices and fit for use case.

alganet 7/5/2025||
How is any of that related to actual silicon sales strategies?

Do not mistake adjacent topics for the main thing I'm discussing. It only proves my point that right now, all silicon talk is bullshit.

int_19h 7/5/2025||||
> High-end GPUs are already useless for gaming (a low-end GPU is enough), their traditional source of demand. They're floating on artificial demand for a while now.

This is not the case if you want things like ray tracing or 4K.

grg0 7/5/2025|||
Hell, yeah. I'm in for some shared excitement too if y'all want to get some popcorn.
mrkramer 7/5/2025||
Probably the next big thing will be Chinese GPUs that are the same quality as NVIDIA GPUs but at least 10-20% cheaper aaand we will have to wait for that maybe 5-10 years.
zoobab 7/5/2025||
Not enough VRAM to load big LLMs, in order not to compète with their expensive high end. Market segmentation it's called.
fithisux 7/5/2025||
NVidia won?

Not for me. I prefer Intel offerings. Open and Linux friendly.

I even hope they would release the next gen Risc-V boards with Intel Graphics.

camel-cdr 7/5/2025|
A RISC-V board with NVIDIA graphics is more likely: https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/KiV13GqXGMZfZjopY0Xxpg

NVIDIA Keynote from the upcoming RISC-V Summit China: "Enabling RISC-V application processors in NVIDIA compute platforms"

fithisux 7/6/2025||
Not happy with that.
benreesman 7/4/2025||
The thing is, company culture is a real thing. And some cultures are invasive/contagious like kudzu both internally to the company and into adjacent companies that they get comped against. The people get to thinking a certain way, they move around between adjacent companies at far higher rates than to more distant parts of their field, the executives start sitting on one another's boards, before you know it a whole segment is enshittified, and customers feel like captives in an exploitation machine instead of parties to a mutually beneficial transaction in which trade increases the wealth of all.

And you can build mythologies around falsehoods to further reinforce it: "I have a legal obligation to maximize shareholder value." No buddy, you have some very specific restrictions on your ability to sell the company to your cousin (ha!) for a handful of glass beads. You have a legal obligation to bin your wafers the way it says on your own box, but that doesn't seem to bother you.

These days I get a machine like the excellent ASUS Proart P16 (grab one of those before they're all gone if you can) with a little 4060 or 4070 in it that can boot up Pytorch and make sure the model will run forwards and backwards at a contrived size, and then go rent a GB200 or whatever from Latitude or someone (seriously check out Latitude, they're great), or maybe one of those wildly competitive L40 series fly machines (fly whips the llama's ass like nothing since Winamp, check them out too). The GMTek EVO-X1 is a pretty capable little ROCm inference machine for under 1000, its big brother is nipping at the heels of a DGX Spark under 2k. There is good stuff out there but its all from non-incumbent angles.

I don't game anymore but if I did I would be paying a lot of attention to ARC, I've heard great things.

Fuck the cloud and their ancient Xeon SKUs for more than Latitude charges for 5Ghz EPYC. Fuck NVIDIA gaming retail rat race, its an electrical as well as moral hazard in 2025.

It's a shame we all have to be tricky to get what used to be a halfway fair deal 5-10 years ago (and 20 years ago they passed a HUGE part of the scaling bonanza down to the consumer), but its possible to compute well in 2025.

827a 7/5/2025||
> Fuck the cloud and their ancient Xeon SKUs

Dude, no one talks about this and it drives me up the wall. The only way to guarantee modern CPUs from any cloud provider is to explicitly provision really new instance types. If you use any higher-level abstracted services (Fargate, Cloud Run, Lambda, whatever) you get salvation army second-hand CPUs from 15 years ago, you're billed by the second so the slower, older CPUs screw you over there, and you pay a 30%+ premium over the lower-level instances because its a "managed service". Its insane and extremely sad that so many customers put up with it.

benreesman 7/5/2025||
Bare metal is priced like it always was but is mad convenient now. latitude.sh is my favorite, but there are a bunch of providers that are maybe a little less polished.

It's also way faster to deploy and easier to operate now. And mad global, I've needed to do it all over the world (a lot of places the shit works flawlessly and you can get Ryzen SKUs for nothing).

Protip: burn a partition of Ubuntu 24.04 LTS which is the default on everything and use that as "premium IPMI", even if you run Ubuntu. you can always boot into a known perfect thing with all the tools to tweak whatever. If I have to even restart on I just image it, faster than launching a VM on EC2.

glitchc 7/5/2025||
Nice advertorial. I hope you got paid for all of those plugs.
benreesman 7/5/2025||
I wish! People don't care what I think enough to monetize it.

But I do spend a lot of effort finding good deals on modern ass compute. This is the shit I use to get a lot of performance on a budget.

Will people pay you to post on HN? How do I sign up?

oilkillsbirds 7/4/2025||
Nobody’s going to read this, but this article and sentiment is utter anti-corporate bullshit, and the vastly congruent responses show that none of you have watched the historical development of GPGPU, or do any serious work on GPUs, or keep up with the open work of nvidia researchers.

The spoiled gamer mentality is getting old for those of us that actually work daily in GPGPU across industries, develop with RTX kit, do AI research, etc.

Yes they’ve had some marketing and technical flubs as any giant publically traded company will have, but their balance of research-driven development alongside corporate profit necessities is unmatched.

oilkillsbirds 7/4/2025||
And no I don’t work for nvidia. I’ve just been in the industry long enough to watch the immense contribution nvidia has made to every. single. field. The work of their researchers is astounding, it’s clear to anyone that’s honestly worked in this field long enough. It’s insane to hate on them.
grg0 7/5/2025||
Their contribution to various fields and the fact that they treat the average consumer like shit nowadays are not mutually exclusive.

Also, nobody ever said they hate their researchers.

Rapzid 7/5/2025||
Maybe the average consumer doesn't agree they are being treated like shit? Steam top 10 GPU list is almost all NVidia. Happy customers or duped suckers? I've seen the later sentiment a lot over the years and discounting consumer's preferences never seems to lead to correct prediction of outcomes..
detaro 7/5/2025||
Or maybe the average consumer bought them while still being unhappy about the overall situation?
gdbsjjdn 7/5/2025||
It pains me to be on the side of "gamers" but I would rather support spoiled gamers than modern LLM bros.
xgkickt 7/5/2025|
AMD’s openness has been a positive in the games industry. I only wish they too made ARM based APUs.
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