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Posted by Bogdanp 8/30/2025

Are we decentralized yet?(arewedecentralizedyet.online)
492 points | 279 commentspage 4
BaardFigur 8/30/2025|
I thought Bluesky was federalized? How is it not?
lmm 8/30/2025||
The federal part doesn't actually work in practice. It's just a marketing gimmick.
notthemessiah 8/31/2025||
This is factually wrong, and disproven by the fact there are now fully independent federated instances such as BlackSky and soon to be NorthSky. Furthermore, they have independent codebases which are fully compatible. Compare to ActivityPub where most instances are just running Mastodon or some close fork or risk breaking compatibility. What's the point of federation if you are stuck with a monoculture of implementations?

The main BlueSky services are still by far the most popular, which is why we see centralization on the network.

jchw 8/31/2025||
Mastodon is definitely not the only fediverse setup that is popular, Misskey, Pleroma and forks of those integrate perfectly well. Given that the main Misskey instance is one of the largest fediverse instances (certainly by activity) it seems a bit unfair to criticize the fediverse on this. I mean, how many completely independent microblogging implementations does a network actually need? (Not even including things like Lemmy or Peertube which are also ActivityPub instances.)

On the other hand I really think you're underselling how much more popular Bluesky services are than any existing alternatives. I don't think we can actually see the distribution of network traffic, but I would be willing to bet decent money that the sum of all alternatives to the Bluesky AppView wouldn't even crack 0.01% the traffic of the main Bluesky AppView. And, honestly, I would probably bet even more money they'll never even come close to cracking 1% ever for the entire lifetime of the protocol, unless Bluesky Social PBC literally goes out of business.

ezfe 8/30/2025||
It is, but most people use the central server
arthurcolle 8/31/2025||
Depressing
DyslexicAtheist 8/30/2025||
Sadly, and fortunately, there is no such thing as "avoiding centralization", the evidence is overwhelming:

== Politics & Sociology (power concentrates in organizations)

- Robert Michels, Political Parties (1911) origin of the "iron law of oligarchy": even democratic groups tend to end up run by a few: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy

- Jo Freeman, "The Tyranny of Structurelessness" (1970/72): leaderless groups develop informal, unaccountable elites unless they make structure explicit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tyranny_of_Structurelessne...

- Max Weber, bureaucracy & rational-legal authority: why modern societies gravitate to rule-bound, hierarchical administration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational-legal_authority

- James G. March & Herbert A. Simon, Organizations (1958): classics on bounded rationality and why attention/decision bottlenecks yield hierarchy: https://www.amazon.se/-/en/James-G-March/dp/0471567930

== Economics & Political Economy (why markets/platforms centralize)

- Ronald Coase, "The Nature of the Firm" (1937): firms exist (and grow) when internal coordination is cheaper than market exchange: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-0335.1937...

- Oliver Williamson, Markets and Hierarchies (1975): transaction-cost economics: asset specificity & opportunism push activity into hierarchies: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1496220

- W. Brian Arthur, "Increasing Returns and Lock-In" (1989): small early advantages + network effects => path-dependent monopolies: https://www.jstor.org/stable/2234208

- Katz & Shapiro, network effects (1985/1994): compatibility and standards help explain winner-take-most dynamics: https://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/shapiro/systems.pdf

- Thomas Piketty, Capital in the Twenty-First Century (2014): when r > g, wealth concentrates; proposes progressive wealth taxation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_Ce...

== Networks, Complexity & Information (why hubs and hierarchies emerge)

Albert-László Barabási, Linked (2002): preferential attachment makes networks develop hubs (central nodes) http://networksciencebook.com/chapter/5

Herbert A. Simon, "The Architecture of Complexity" (1962): complex systems often become hierarchical because modular hierarchies are easier to evolve and manage https://faculty.sites.iastate.edu/tesfatsi/archive/tesfatsi/...

W. Ross Ashby, "Law of Requisite Variety" (1956): controllers need at least as much "variety" as the environment and it often pushes toward central coordinating mechanisms (or many distributed ones with enough capacity) http://pcp.vub.ac.be/books/AshbyReqVar.pdf

Gilbert & Lynch, proof of the CAP theorem (2002): in distributed computing you can’t have perfect consistency + availability under network partitions and real systems centralize/compromise to cope: https://groups.csail.mit.edu/tds/papers/Gilbert/Brewer2.pdf

Robert K. Merton, "The Matthew Effect" (1968): cumulative advantage: success attracts more success, reinforcing centralization of recognition/resources https://garfield.library.upenn.edu/merton/matthew1.pdf

== State power, legibility & infrastructure (why governments centralize)

James C. Scott, Seeing Like a State (1998): states seek legibility and large projects favor central plans and standardized populations/landscapes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeing_Like_a_State (literally anything by Jim Scott -RIP- will be useful)

Tim Wu, The Master Switch (2010): communications industries cycle from openness to centralized "information empires" https://www.amazon.com/Master-Switch-Rise-Information-Empire...

== Technology & platforms (contemporary centralization)

Nick Srnicek, Platform Capitalism (2017): explains how platform business models + data/network effects produce concentration https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Platform+Capitalism-p-9781509504...

== When decentralization can work

Elinor Ostrom, Governing the Commons (1990): shows conditions (clear rules, monitoring, graduated sanctions, polycentric governance) under which decentralized, federated management of shared resources succeed https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/governing-the-commons/A...

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the literature making a counterpoint is abundant / overwhelming but that feels bleak considering when reading these works, systems thinking )the basis for "la technique") favors centralization

dredmorbius 4 days ago||
I just wanted to thank you belatedly for an excellent set of resources and references. I'm familiar with several, others look like worthwhile exploration.
fsflover 8/30/2025||
The Internet itself is decentralized, which made it extremely resilient. So is democracy.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy

The article cites a few notable counterexamples like Wikipedia. Your post looks like learned helplessness.

znort_ 8/31/2025||
> The Internet itself is decentralized, which made it extremely resilient. So is democracy.

extremely? i wouldn't bet on that.

how do you even measure that? books have been around for over a millenium, that's quite resilient. the internet is barely 50 years old. empires have lasted for thousands of years, modern democracies are a bit over a couple of centuries ... young. how do you determine their resilience? i see quite concerning signs of degradation lately, and they might have something to do with that iron law of oligarchy.

> The article cites a few notable counterexamples like Wikipedia.

no, it doesn't? it has a section titled "examples and exceptions", but it doesn't include any real exception (that has been resilient to this day), let alone a 'counterexample'.

> Your post looks like learned helplessness.

yours looks like wishful thinking (and difficulty in parsing the wikipedia)

danielpoer1098 8/30/2025||
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Jr23_xd 8/31/2025|
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