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Posted by leotravis10 9/4/2025

Wikipedia survives while the rest of the internet breaks(www.theverge.com)
601 points | 458 commentspage 2
ajsnigrutin 9/4/2025|
Wikipedia has one great feature... you can see all the editing history.

Something happened, a war started, someone did X, someone else did Y... you open wikipedia, see all the "current situation" bias, open the history tab and look at the article from before <the thing> happened.

jfengel 9/5/2025||
I was surprised that Wikipedia wasn't immediately overrun by trolls, griefers, and spammers. I'm still not entirely sure how it avoids that, though I've got some speculations.

Unlike most user contributed sites it's happy to throw stuff away. It does grow but it doesn't care about growing fast. That's great but it's a hard formula to replicate.

idle_zealot 9/5/2025||
> That's great but it's a hard formula to replicate

One important piece of even trying to replicate that is its nature as a nonprofit. Any profit-seeking organization trying to grow a user-contribution based site will prefer content and moderation pipelines that drive engagement over quality.

rafram 9/5/2025|||
Because contributions from new users are immediately reviewed by legions of volunteer cops who are eager to revert vandalism, and most wannabe vandals don’t have the sense to make a couple legitimate edits before vandalizing.
jfengel 9/5/2025||
Can you imagine any other crowdsourced site who was willing to subject new users to so much scrutiny, and err on the side of deleting contributions?

Certainly that's not a great way to make money. Not if you're depending on people to spend a lot of time seeking new content (and be shown ads).

zahlman 9/5/2025||
> I'm still not entirely sure how it avoids that

It really doesn't. Granted, it could be a lot worse.

Aurornis 9/4/2025||
In the past few years I've noticed more and more issues on Wikipedia. It has never been perfect, but in the past it seemed like anything without sufficient sources would quickly get flagged as "citation needed" or questionable statements would get a warning label slapped on them.

Now, I can visit pages for certain medical conditions that contain completely unsourced claims with no "citation needed" nor any warnings. When I try to search for it, I often trace it back to alternative medicine or pseudoscience influencers.

The sad part is that when I've tried to remove obviously flimsy information, someone will immediately come along and add it back. Unless you're ready to spend months in a Wikipedia edit war with someone who obsesses over a page, there's no point in even trying. These people know the rules and processes and will use every one of them against you. When that fails, they'll try to pull rank. If that fails, they'll just quietly continue editing and rewriting (possibly from alt accounts) until you get too tired to fight the battle any more.

zozbot234 9/4/2025||
> The sad part is that when I've tried to remove obviously flimsy information, someone will immediately come along and add it back.

The trick is to write about your proposed edit on the talk page and wait a few days. If nobody has complained, you make the edit and write "see talk" in the edit summary. The notion that you should push an edit first and wait for someone to revert you just doesn't work in practice except for trivial typo fixes. Discuss your edit in depth, then push it once you have a presumed near-consensus for it.

Kim_Bruning 9/4/2025||
I think it's important to edit early and often, but it certainly can't hurt to also explain your edits on the talk page. Bonus points if the other side makes no explanations, you get to "rv unexplained edit, see talk page". Just look in on the article every couple of days for a while to see what sticks and what doesn't. Originally when I started editing, more often than not people would have improved and built on my edits, rather than fought them. But you may need to be a bit (un)lucky these days?
arjie 9/5/2025|||
Do you recall a couple? It's one of my minor hobbies when I'm bored to try to find sources and fix Wikipedia articles that others have trouble with. As examples that this is a good faith attempt and not the usual online comment technique of "oh yeah? show me!", here are some stories of edits I got in that others said they had trouble with:

- https://wiki.roshangeorge.dev/w/Blog/2024-10-17/Path_Depende...

- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40655989

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Weierstrass_function#Accu...

And my personal favourite is recently when the most ridiculous thing was added to Bukele's Gang Crackdown: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Salvadoran_gang_c...

If you still have the desire to have some of these fixed, post here and I'll put it in my queue and get to it at some point. If you don't want the resulting interaction from other commenters here, send it to my email (in profile).

Wikipedia is ultimately a consensus summarizer frequently mistaken for a truth-seeker. So you have to make the case for something being true somewhere where the experts live, and then Wikipedia can express the experts' opinion. But crucially, it is not truth-seeking on its own.

ars 9/4/2025||
I've noticed this exact same thing. And I too just gave up. People have their pet causes and they force the article to match, and normal, non-obsessed people give up.

Any controversial topic should never be read on Wikipedia, it will not be accurate.

pessimizer 9/4/2025|||
> People have their pet causes

People are paid whole-ass salaries to edit Wikipedia (and to become mods on Reddit.) They masquerade as (a dozen different) obsessed weirdos, but they are just normal middle-class people who are being paid to lie.

theteapot 9/4/2025||
I'd love some examples of specific pages.
UncleSlacky 9/4/2025|||
The "Philip Cross" controversy is relevant here, I think:

https://wikipedia.fivefilters.org/banning/

tjfnvlo 9/4/2025||
The ArbCom is the worst of the lot: they proclaim themselves to be a supreme court, but they are closer to riot cops or a drumhead trial.

See also Canceling Disputes: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/law-and-social-inqui...

mothballed 9/4/2025|||
I noticed this during the election. As soon as Kamala become the contender, it was edited out that her father was described as a "marxist scholar" by a college newspaper.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_J._Harris&...

viccis 9/5/2025|||
They also removed a big part of her page when she was a primary candidate in 2019/2020 about a man she intentionally kept in prison despite knowing he was innocent. Wikipedia is absolutely a political battleground. Take a look at this old version of her 2019 page about Daniel Larsen [1] and compare it with her current Wikipedia page.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kamala_Harris&old...

zahlman 9/5/2025||
> Wikipedia is absolutely a political battleground.

Even the titles are a place of political warfare. For example, note carefully which incidents are labelled as "riots" and which as "unrest", and try to find any objective, politically neutral principle that could explain those results.

martey 9/4/2025||||
I think that when a wealth of other reliable sources don't describe an economist as Marxist, Wikipedia shouldn't give precedence to a single op-ed in the Stanford Daily from 1976.

You're focusing on when the word "Marxist" was removed in 2024, but you might want to consider when it was added to the article (in August 2020, about two weeks after Harris was selected to be the vice presidential nominee): https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_J._Harris&...

mothballed 9/4/2025||
You say it was added in August 2020, but the article was created in August 2020.

Not much of an indictment that additional information was added sometime shortly after the article was created.

altcognito 9/4/2025||||
Did you look into why? They always list the reasons. How long had it been on the page?
mothballed 9/4/2025||
It had been at least 2 years. [] Never became much of a contentious issue until Kamala was looking at the presidential nomination, from what I can tell, then suddenly there was a vicious fight to remove it based on reasoning that mysteriously didn't exist for years and years before that.

[] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_J._Harris&...

Edit: at least ~4 years

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_J._Harris&...

IAmBroom 9/4/2025||
Or, it wasn't important enough to merit editorial discussion prior to that.
mothballed 9/4/2025||
Flipping

>Any controversial topic should never be read on Wikipedia, it will not be accurate.

to

>A controversial topic will become important enough to merit editorial discussion

Is an interesting point. I think I will vouch you just for the genius of flipping it.

bakugo 9/5/2025|||
Another great example is when the "Cultural Marxism" article was converted into "Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory", an entirely different article claiming that the concept of cultural marxism was actually always a "far-right antisemitic conspiracy theory", complete with a section relating it to Gamergate. It's so ridiculous, it's almost funny to read.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140519194937/http://en.wikiped...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_th...

jacquesm 9/4/2025||
Wikipedia and the Khan academy are my two best examples for the potential of the internet. Each is an incredible feat that took a simple vision and took it far beyond what I ever thought possible.
3036e4 9/4/2025||
An unexpected side-effect for me after I started subscribing to Kagi a few months ago, at a low tier with limited searches, is that I made sure to configure all my browsers with keywords for Wikipedia searches and I use those a lot, knowing that what I will end up with after searching is probably going to be the Wikipedia page anyway. No point wasting precious limited monthly searches.
manquer 9/5/2025|
Kagi does not count bangs as part of monthly usage - for wiki that would be !w search term

https://help.kagi.com/kagi/plans/plan-types.html#how-searche...

BlueTemplar 9/5/2025||
I'm still puzzled after all these years : why would anyone use search engine bangs instead of directly configuring custom searches from their browser's URL bar ?
danhor 9/5/2025|||
It takes a bit of effort to add all you would want and, for me personally, bangs can be anywhere instead of having to be at the start of a search query as is needed for custom search keywords.
BlueTemplar 7 days ago||
Well, it would take effort to add custom bangs too, it's not like DDG has pre-made bangs for every website...
freediver 9/5/2025||||
Bangs through Kagi work cross-device, on every browser you use whether it supports custom searches or not.
macintux 9/5/2025|||
Because I know how to use search engine bangs, and I have no idea what a “custom search” would look like.

After probably 15 years of using DDG the bangs are just part of my muscle memory. Why bother changing things?

BlueTemplar 7 days ago||
Well, my question then is why didn't you use custom search before DDG added bangs ?

Today in Firefox : right click on a search field, add search engine. Pretty sure that this evolved from that separate search field that browsers used to have in addition to the URL field ?

doron 7 days ago||
You take the advertising driven paradigm out of the equation, and a website might be worth something more than rage clicks and doom scrolling machine, who knew?!

Ad driven sites broke the internet; they might have broken society to some degree as well.

pessimizer 9/4/2025||
I've started to think that the fact that Wikipedia will change its descriptions of reality based on whoever is willing to spend the time and money to subvert it is a feature when it comes to survival. When the final sci-fi authoritarian dictatorship comes down, Wikipedia will happily explain that it was always here, and that Eastasia was always the enemy.
IAmBroom 9/4/2025|
Its (relatively short) history suggests otherwise, so far.
pessimizer 9/4/2025||
It certainly does not. It is not dependable for any subject that anybody or any government that commands any significant resources has any interest in. I'm sure there's somebody right this second guarding distortions on some obscure page about some scientific phenomenon that 99.999% of people have never heard of because their investment depends on it.

The political model doesn't work at all. If you just count the votes of the people who show up to vote, the Party will hire buses and empty the retirement homes and homeless shelters. Maybe you can fight this irl if everyone knows there's an election, but nobody knows when there's a war on a talk page.

HankStallone 9/5/2025|||
Yeah, I've heard people say, "I don't use it for anything controversial, but it's accurate for other stuff." That's usually true, but you can't assume it, because you never know what will be someone's personal hobbyhorse.

If I just want to know some dry facts about Podunk, BFE, it'll probably have them right. But maybe not, if the mayor of Podunk wrote the page and is trying to promote the town, or if it was last edited by someone who used to live there and hates the place. And very few people are going to check the talk or history pages to see whether there's been an edit war or other hints that the page might be sketchy.

zahlman 9/5/2025|||
> If you just count the votes of the people who show up to vote, the Party will hire buses and empty the retirement homes and homeless shelters.

They don't even have to go that far; consider the "consensus is not a vote" policy.

david-james-2 9/5/2025||
Reading the article made me think about other examples of Commons-Based Peer Production (CBPP). The Wikipedia page on CBBP lists examples like Linux and OpenStreetMap.

Although CBPP shares a lot with general User-generated content (UGC) and the open source model, maybe mechanisms that make it work is a little different.

The article points out system-side elements like "Talk page" and human-side elements like policies and guidelines.

I wonder if there are any studies on this subject.

maskil 7 days ago||
Wikipedia is completely unreliable on any area of controversy, there are armies of editors who are skilled in fitting the articles to their agenda.
1970-01-01 9/5/2025|
We need a new metric to complement system uptime: "link lifetime"

I have an email, old enough to vote, that I received from an engineer. They wrote "Wikipedia is a good site for learning how our new RAID array works. People need to change their mind about Wikipedia. Just because anyone can make a page doesn't mean the information is wrong."

If they had sent me any other link, all this info would be behind a paywall, login, or would simply 404 today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_RAID_levels

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