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Posted by keyboardJones 4 days ago

Signal Secure Backups(signal.org)
982 points | 440 commentspage 4
chimeracoder 4 days ago|
I know plenty of people who have inadvertently lost their entire messaging history because their phone broke or was lots and they couldn't transfer messages directly from the old phone to the new one. Signal allows you to export backups of messages to a file, but only on Android - the iOS version does not. This is a great feature not only for users who are less technically inclined than the average HN reader, but for any user who doesn't want to go through the tedious process of manually backing up their messages periodically but doesn't want to risk losing their message history if their phone has one unfortunate encounter with gravity.

My only concern reading this is that I hope they don't remove the manual export feature once this is rolled out. I know that that feature has been technically complicated to support, but it's important for users to preserve the option to maintain control over their backups, if they want to manage backups themselves, alongside the option of having a more convenient, automated approach.

greysonp 4 days ago|
Hi there, Signal dev here. We are absolutely keeping the local backup feature. More than that -- we'll be improving it to also be cross-platform and incremental, meaning it'll be much faster to both create the backup as well as sync it if you use a third-party folder-syncing solution (like syncthing or something).
jrochkind1 4 days ago|||
This was my question and wasn't clear to me at all from the announcement -- that there was a roadmap for my own (not Signal cloud) cross-platform, incremental, secure encrypted backups as well.

(That presumably would let me store as much as I wanted without a fee).

I wasn't even aware of the existing "local backup feature" making it more confusing -- but reading the announcement I was like, wait, the only backups avail are in Signal cloud? that doesn't seem right, why can't I get my own backup file to do what I want with?

I feel like I now understand, thanks! Personally would recommend the announcement at least reference this future roadmap too, for clarity.

john01dav 4 days ago||||
Please add some way to send it over FTP/FTPS/SFTP/SCP/WebDav/SMB/whatever so I can automatically backup to my own server that isn't on my phone. I need something fully automated or I won't often do it. This is also really important if the free space on my phone is less than the size of the Signal archive, and even more so if the Signal archive is more than 50% of the total space on my phone.
ysnp 4 days ago||||
Will it be possible to backup messages and media to both Signal's cloud storage and local storage at the same time?
bdzr 4 days ago|||
Will the secure backups also be incremental? I've gotten to the point where the backup takes quite a while to generate.
palata 4 days ago||
Isn't it what they mean with "we'll be improving it to also be [...] incremental"?
joshjob42 4 days ago||
It's a real shame they aren't implementing this on iOS in beta before the new iPhone launch. Android has had backups for a long time, just locally. iOS users have been SOL so if anything goes wrong with the transfer and sync on your new phone, you're screwed.
Klonoar 4 days ago|
Signal has done a very poor job of calling out that you can optionally connect your old and new phone via cable; the transfer will be much more stable and quick.

(No, this does not really help if you're one of the TouchID holdouts on an older SE)

AnonC 3 days ago||
Wow! I didn’t know this! So you’re saying that instead of using slower and potentially unreliable WiFi, I could just use the iPhone charging cable to connect two iPhones and start the Signal transfer feature? Is this documented anywhere? Thanks.
eviks 4 days ago||
> If securely back up all* of your text messages and the last 45 days’ worth of media for free. > If you want to back up your media history beyond 45 days, as well as your message history, we also offer a paid subscription plan for US$1.99 per month.

So after so many years of having a serious design flaw this poor substitute of a backup where you can't even save all your text for free is all they've managed to come up with?

> The reason we’re doing this is simple: media requires a lot of storage, and storing and transferring large amounts of data is expensive.

Easy fix: let the user choose his own local/cloud storage location? (at least it's planned, maybe in just another decade)

dash2 4 days ago|
I guess the reason WhatsApp lets you save all your text for free is they are making money off sucking up your data. I think ultimately this model will win, but I sympathise with Signal's approach.
abraham 4 days ago||
WhatsApp offloads the storage to Google/Apple.

https://faq.whatsapp.com/481135090640375

MrDresden 4 days ago||
Personally I've never understood the need some have for keeping chat histories. So this isn't a feature I'll use, but am sure others will.

And remember, Signal is a nonprofit. If you use it, and if you can, you should be donating.

pfix 4 days ago||
I just had a use case the other day: my mom sent me a photo of a handwritten recipe from my great grandmother a year ago. I only remembered asking about asking, not about the response, so I was happy to still have that pic in my history. Had I downloaded the Pic, it would be lost among all the other crap I store all ocer the place. This way it was preserved with the context and even a voice message from my grandmother (not great grandmother) remarking on it.
Y-bar 4 days ago|||
It's my "old shoebox" with cherished memories of friends and relatives, some who have passed away.
paride5745 4 days ago||
Same.

Just save the pictures in the camera roll and important messages in your notes app of choice.

ktosobcy 4 days ago||
> In the past, if you broke or lost your phone, your Signal message history was gone.

this and completly useless multi-device support is the reason I don't use Signal... Telegram is not fully e2ee but it's way more convenient here.

Even XMPP with PGP would be lightyears ahead.

jcul 4 days ago||
Telegram has such a good UX, like really good. Using as many devices as you want is a breeze, having multiple accounts on the same device. Their bots API is so easy to use.

Yes, it's at the expense of security perhaps... But I tried to get my wife to use Signal, as well as many friends and it never stuck bar one or two. She had to use telegram to contact someone and decided she liked it and continued using it.

It is what it is.

Nathan2055 4 days ago|||
This has been the advantage, and the drawback, of Signal's security model from the start.

Everything on Signal (at least the "original" design from a few years ago, this has started to be adjusted with the introduction of usernames and now backups and eventually syncing) is end-to-end encrypted between users, with your original phone acting as the primary communication node doing the encryption. Any other devices like desktops and tablets that get added are replicating from the original node rather than receiving new messages straight from the network.

This offers substantial privacy and security guarantees, at the cost of convenience and portability. It can be contrasted with something like iMessage, before Messages in iCloud was implemented, where every registered device is a full node that receives every new message directly, as long as they're connected at the time that it's sent.

Today's addition brings Signal to where iMessage was originally: each device is backing up their own messages, but those backups aren't syncing with one another. Based on the blog post, the goal is to eventually get Signal to where iMessage is today now that Messages in iCloud is available: all of the devices sync their own message databases with a version in the cloud, which is also end-to-end encrypted with the same guarantees as the messages themselves, but which ensures that every device ends up with the same message history regardless of whether they're connected to receive all of the messages as they come in. Then, eventually, they seem to also intend to take it one step farther and allow for arbitrary sync locations for that "primary replica" outside of their own cloud storage, which is even better and goes even further than Apple's implementation does.

If done well, I actually quite like the vision they're going for here. I'm still frustrated that they wouldn't just port the simple file backup feature from Android to the other platforms, even as just a stopgap until this is finished, but I think that the eventual completion of this feature as described will solve all of my major concerns with Signal's current storage implementation.

maqp 4 days ago||
>"Telegram is not fully e2ee but it's way more convenient here."

Yeah convenient way to hand your data to a Russian oligarch.

PGP has no forward secrecy and OTR in XMPP lacks future secrecy, multi-device support etc.

Signal introducing end-to-end encrypted backups is exactly how Telegram should've done it decade ago.

ktosobcy 4 days ago|||
Everything boils down to the thread model.

Not everyone is paranoid at extremum.

> PGP has no forward secrecy and OTR in XMPP lacks future secrecy, multi-device support etc.

Have you ever considered that perfect-forward-secrecy is not needed by 99% of the people? And PGP (OX) can be enough of encryption that gives you multi-device support.

Btw. OTR is long dead…

upofadown 4 days ago|||
Future secrecy?

PGP does multirecipients natively, so any restrictions there would be in the XMPP client.

I have actually tried out PGP over XMPP and is was nice once it was set up. Absolutely no state. If the message somehow gets to you it just works. Sucked when the keys expired though:

* https://articles.59.ca/doku.php?id=pgpfan:expire

PGP support on XMPP isn't really that great. Forward secrecy might be a nice addition, even if it was semi-manual. There are compatibility problems between clients for encrypted media. You don't end up with an always encrypted archive like you do with email, but that could be considered an inherent weakness of instant messaging...

maqp 4 days ago||
>Future secrecy?

Meaning --if-- when your keys get compromised the system recovers.

PGP lacks even forward secrecy, meaning key compromise alone allows retrospective decryption of every message you've ever sent.

OTR fixed that in... ...2004 https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1029179.1029200

Using PGP for secure communication in 2025 when you have option to use stateful E2EE over stuff like Signal is just bonkers.

upofadown 4 days ago|||
If your keys get compromised then you would need new keys in any case.

I think that the sort of people that use PGP are more interested in not having any messages compromised, ever, while still retaining access to their old messages in a secure way. Contrast that with, say, Signal where a forensic tool like Cellebrite will allow access to retained Signal messages[1]. Sure, most of that is due to the inherent insecurity of encrypted instant messaging over, say, encrypted email, but the users in the end don't care. They just want to be able to communicate privately.

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20201210150311/https://www.celle...

ktosobcy 4 days ago|||
And if you lose your device your messages are compromised as well.

Forcing your paranoidal perception "is just bonkers".

maqp 4 days ago||
>paranoidal

So either you're too young or too ignorant to have read the Snowden docs.

ktosobcy 4 days ago||
And?

You are aware that majority of the communication happens via email, which has absolutely NO encryption and can go through whichever relay and noone gives a flying duck about it?

Again, for the overwhelming majority simple PGP encryption without pfs is more than enough. Not everyone works for government agencies and have to maintain perfect secrecy. If you do that in your private life then yes - you are paranoidal.

6thbit 4 days ago||
I'm glad they're opening up a new revenue stream tied to something that provides real value to customers, like backups.

Hope they also may it easy to pay for family/friends, maybe similar to the "donate for a friend" they have already.

dmitrygr 4 days ago||
This is overcomplicated to collect money IMHO. All modern OSs can happily backup app files. It is a well-solved problem. If you find this backup method not secure enough (as Signal authors do), fine, encrypt the backup with a special key, exactly as described in TFA, and leave the resulting archive in a location for my chosen phone OS to back it up as it would. All the goals are accomplished, and without charging me money or limiting how many days of media are stored.

Do not get me wrong. Signal is great software and i'd gladly pay for it. Honestly. But not via this underhanded nonsensical way

greysonp 4 days ago||
Hi there, Signal dev here. The Android app does indeed allow you to export encrypted backups to your local device, which you can sync as you wish. That's not going anywhere, and in fact, we have imminent plans to make it better (cross-platform, faster, etc).
tdrz 4 days ago||
If you would gladly pay for it, maybe you could consider donating for Signal.
dmitrygr 3 days ago||
Do
chithanh 4 days ago||
It's a self inflicted problem. Rather than using some standard message format for backups (like eml / RFC 822), and putting them in a standard encrypted container if so desired, Signal chose to use some proprietary database format. Also they apparently changed encryption formats some time ago, and the current version can no longer decrypt the old messages.

After moving devices I can no longer access/decrypt my oldest image/video messages, they failed to import properly.

wooptoo 4 days ago||
I would love if they implemented a feature to prune media files larger than ~10MiB from the existing backup file. This way the file size would not grow to astronomical proportions so quickly.
ngrilly 4 days ago|
What is the reason for saving the end-to-end encrypted backup files on Signal backup servers instead of iCloud or Google backup service, as most of us are already paying for this storage?
bsimpson 4 days ago||
The "Signal should exist" part of me is happy to donate $2/mo to help them keep the lights on, but I really did expect that to be an option alongside Drive/Dropbox/et al, not the only option.
drnick1 4 days ago|||
Besides the obvious (they want/need the revenue from selling their own solution), many people using Signal do so in an effort to move away from Big Tech and/or on devices with custom ROMs.
ngrilly 4 days ago||
Yes, but Signal mission is also to popularize E2E secure communication for normal users, whi usually don’t use a custom ROM.
Dunedan 4 days ago||
FYI: "Signal backup servers" currently seems to mean either Google Cloud Storage or CloudFlare R2 according to https://github.com/signalapp/storage-manager/blob/e45aaf5bd1...
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