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Posted by keyboardJones 5 days ago

Signal Secure Backups(signal.org)
983 points | 440 commentspage 8
master-lincoln 4 days ago|
Why would you want to backup chat messages? To me they are worthless at least after a few months.
newscracker 4 days ago||
Chat messages with some people can hold a lot of value. Nostalgia, recalling past incidents/events, missing someone, etc. Sometimes even the most trivial of messages can be looked at with fondness and longing.

I’m personally very glad that Signal finally implemented this. It’s been such a short sighted strategy to promote itself like a mass market messaging platform while not allowing people to keep, move and restore memories.

Since it’s opt-in, those who don’t want it don’t have to use it. They’re well served by the self-destructing message timers in chats.

syncbehind 4 days ago||
Memories.
gadsentz 4 days ago||
at least on android: you use a good old usb-c cable
the_gipsy 4 days ago||
A subscription. So the money squeeze starts.
szszrk 4 days ago|
What's your alternative?

Keep doing voluntary donations and wait for rich people to throw 50mil at it again?

the_gipsy 4 days ago||
Personally, I eat the cost of self hosting a small matrix homeserver. For developing a commercial project, I don't have an alternative, because e.g. being upfront and saying that you will eventually screw over your users eventually, is not an option in this economy.
szszrk 4 days ago|||
Signal ain't exactly commercial project.

They didn't screw over anyone, for the past 8 years Signal was and remains free for everyone.

That service is not mandatory and didn't even exist before, so who exactly is screwed over?

Also, let me know where me and my friends can sign up on your particular matrix instance. What's your ToS anyway?

the_gipsy 4 days ago||
Okay, I mistakenly thought that Signal was burning on investor money like any run-of-the mill startup, but apparently they manage to run on donations similar to Wikipedia.

I also just learned that you can still backup without a subscription. That's great!

> Also, let me know where me and my friends can sign up on your particular matrix instance. What's your ToS anyway?

I said that was my personal solution and not an alternative to centralized platforms.

dewey 4 days ago|||
Asking to users to for a non-free service you are receiving isn't "screw over your users".
Tepix 4 days ago||
I want to have local backups and i want to be able to decrypt them myself.

It‘s my fucking data!

(I‘m on iOS)

kwie 4 days ago||
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lencastre 5 days ago||
measuring the temperature of hell… … … nope, still hot
yapyap 5 days ago||
haha, did they make this for the US gov ;)
maqp 5 days ago|
Messages: Encrypted on device. Keys stay on device. Server has access to ciphertexts.

Backups: Encrypted on device. Key stays on device. Server has access to ciphertext.

Yapyaps: Is the backup a backdoor?

antirez 5 days ago||
Great article not mentioning local backups were already available and what this is about. The state of affairs in iOS vs Android of the past feature and the next one. Details of all the kind are missing. WTF.
kayson 5 days ago||
I would love to switch over to Signal, but the video call quality pales in comparison to WhatsApp and FaceTime. Add to that issues with even sending pictures or videos on Android, and it's a really hard sell.
pxeboot 5 days ago||
I agree the video call quality needs improvement, but sending photos and videos has always been flawless on Android for me.
kayson 5 days ago||
Lucky you! I pretty much can never send videos. I'm guessing it's something format / compression / transcoding related. Pictures are hit or miss; I think it's an infrastructure thing.
mhitza 5 days ago||
> Add to that issues with even sending pictures or videos on Android, and it's a really hard sell.

What issues? The only issue I've seen with Signal and media files, was on iOS, where users aren't able to download them (copy them outside the signal app).

kayson 5 days ago|||
There are a lot of GitHub issues about this (mine being similar to the last one)

https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/issues/10135

https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/issues/13098

https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/issues/11263

https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/issues/14293

swores 5 days ago|||
Anecdotally, I've not had any issues on iOS (not that I'm needing to download media files often, but I have saved quite a few photos and the occasional video over the years and don't recall any failures).

Not that my experience invalidates that of people who have had problems, just sharing to say that the problems haven't been universal.

mhitza 5 days ago||
Thanks for calling this out. Apparently on iOS it's complicated, for some reason https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007317471-Vi...

On Android I tap on the image in chat, 3 dots and save. Way more involved on iOS. But at least I'll be able to point this out to my iOS peers.

swores 5 days ago||
It's actually not more involved on iOS (unless you're unlucky and have problems with it not working - I've no idea if it's a tiny minority of people who have problems, or if I'm in a tiny minority of people for whom it works, or if it's somewhere in between). But for those of us who it does work for, it's just as simple as on Android.

You can hold down on the media, and after about a second it brings up a menu where one of the options is "Save", you tap this and it will be saved to your camera roll (ie open Photos app to see it). If it's a message with multiple photos/videos, you so the same thing and all of them will be downloaded at the same time.

Or instead of holding down to get the context menu, you can tap once to open full screen view of the media which has the iOS "share" button in the bottom left, which you can use if you either want to just save one thing from a message that had multiple photos/videos, or if instead of saving to the default place - it's the standard iOS share function, so you can choose from "save to photos" (ie a the default like above), or "save to files" (accessible from the iOS file manager or from other apps), or share directly to a different app (like an email client, or an FTP client if you have one installed, or to an app like DropBox, or any other app you have that supports the OS-wide share menu).

TLDR: The help page you linked to, the top part of that iOS section (that makes it seem complicated) is just explaining how to find an overview of all previously shared media for a contact/group, and then download from there, but you don't need to do that to download it if you're already looking at what you want to download in the main chat window. The bottom part on that page is my second option from above, which is basically identical to what you say about how to do it on Android - just 3 touches (press image, press 3 dots on Android or share icon on iOS, then press save image). But it's actually the more complicated way, with a 2 touch option available (hold down on image, then press "save" :)

(p.s. to any Signal devs reading this, if you'd like to offer a free backups subscription in return for me continuing to evangelise, or beta testing on my iPhone... feel free to reach out :P

And, although personally I'm more keen on the future feature or backing up either to iCloud or to my own server, may I make a suggestion that, if paying for you to backup media, I'd prefer to be able to pay for a "family" plan - as I've moved several family members onto Signal and would like to be able to gift them free backups rather than tell them all to start paying. I suspect I'm not the only person who would think an option to share storage with 5 or more family/friends would be worth paying a bit more than your current single-account price.)

drnick1 5 days ago|
Are backups really necessary? I have always regarded texts (over Signal or SMS) as ephemeral. No one is or should be sending valuable information over Signal, and if you happen to receive something you want to keep, you can always do so manually.
GuB-42 5 days ago||
Why should information on Signal be ephemeral on Signal?

Signal is one of the few "privacy-first" services. But it is not just about privacy, it is also about having as many users as possible, which is actually important for privacy. If only people who really have "something to hide", then just using the app makes you a target. If instead it is used by millions of people for grocery shopping and dinner planning, then whoever really needs the privacy features will not stand out. The third is, of course, making money, because, of course, none of that is free.

That's why features like backups are important. Many people want them, maybe not you, but Signal is not just for you, it also makes money. By the way, that's also the reason why there are some privacy compromises, like contact discovery and the use of phone numbers, because they feel like done right, it is worth it. Note that have partially addressed both of these problems.

bsimpson 5 days ago||
My friends and family chats are on Signal because they're seamlessly cross platform. Not feeding Facebook is just a bonus.
3form 5 days ago|||
For many people the messages are meaningful long term (including myself), and I consider ability to preserve your personal data as a base electronic right.
rlpb 5 days ago|||
How should users send valuable information then, if they require E2E encryption?
john01dav 5 days ago||
I sometimes SCP things directly between me and someone else's home.
mimischi 5 days ago|||
Why do you think our should not? Sincerely asking.

And while I’m here, if you’re implying that Signal is Blut trustworthy, you should step out of the HN bubble and have a look around what everyone and their dog shares through less secure means

drnick1 5 days ago||
I did not mean to say that there are better options for encrypted communication. My point was that my use case is texts like "I'll be in the gym at 6:00 bro", not things that I really want to keep or backup. If someone sends a picture or a file that I want to keep, I can already do so manually.
kelnos 5 days ago||
My use case is everything from yours, up to deep personal conversations, and photos and videos that I'd like not to lose.

I don't feel like backing these up manually; it's a computer, and its job is to do tedious, repetitive, easy-to-forget tasks so I don't have to.

justapassenger 5 days ago||
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