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Posted by coloneltcb 3 days ago

ICE is using fake cell towers to spy on people's phones(www.forbes.com)
664 points | 255 comments
aduffy 3 days ago|
Just wanted to advertise that the EFF recently released an open source tool for detecting cell-site simulators. The hardware is like $20 and it's pretty easy to setup yourself. Worth having around to stay aware of what's out there, especially if you live in one of the places recently targeted by the administration.

https://github.com/EFForg/rayhunter/

perihelions 3 days ago||
I wouldn't put it past the US to coerce Microsoft into injecting malicious payloads into these types of projects. EFF is putting complete trust in Microsoft's infrastructure: there's no out-of-band verification not served up by Microsoft itself (is there? It's just GitHub.com's TLS, and in-band SHA-1 hashes stored in the repo itself, which Microsoft controls; it can serve whatever bytes it wants, or different bytes on different requests...)

Microsoft has billions of dollars in US intelligence-cloud contracts and should leap at a chance to get an edge in on those. They've done things like this before; they provided incredible (and illegal!) cooperation with the NSA back at the time of the Snowden Leaks[0].

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-nsa-... ("Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages" (2013))

throw0101d 3 days ago|||
> I wouldn't put it past the US to coerce Microsoft into injecting malicious payloads into these types of projects. EFF is putting complete trust in Microsoft's infrastructure: there's no out-of-band verification not served up by Microsoft itself

Isn't a git commit trail basically a Merkle tree of checksums? If any developer tried to do a pull or fetch they'd suddenly get a bunch of strange commit messages, wouldn't they?

Also: code signing is / can become a thing.

untitaker_ 3 days ago|||
I think GP is talking about a scenario where Microsoft would serve either malicious source tree or binaries to just one user, not all of them. that would be fairly hard to detect. but in such scenarios we'd also have to start asking questions about the state of the entire CA ecosystem.
tstenner 3 days ago||
Or detected easily with package builders like Arg Linux's makepkg that ship a hash along with the source URL. As soon as one user gets a different file, he has an alert and the compromised package for later analysis
untitaker_ 3 days ago||
like I said, if you assume your adversary is the US government then they might as well start issuing rogue TLS certs to target individuals.
stephen_g 3 days ago||||
It'd be a lot of trouble to interfere with the source, yes.

I think the release files is the place they could most easily tamper - generally they're stored on Github infra so the files could be changed, and the checksum on the download page also altered (or different files and different checksums provided to different people if targeted).

Unless the builds are totally reproducible it'd be tricky to catch.

philihp 3 days ago||
Possible, yes, but pretty damming to Microsoft's reputation if proof that their infrastructure has been compromised and anyone realizes it's happening. This sort of thing killed Sourceforge when they started shipping adware bundled into installers of the programs they distributed.
type0 2 days ago||
You can't compare it sourceforge, MS is too big to fail
some_furry 3 days ago||||
> Also: code signing is / can become a thing.

To that end, I started a project last month so that code signing can be done in multiple geographical locations at once: https://github.com/soatok/freeon

therein 3 days ago||||
GP was probably referring to the binary releases on the GitHub repo.
perihelions 3 days ago||||
I don't know why you'd trust a checksum structure your adversary has complete control over.

That Merkle tree prevents the naive case where the adversary tries to serve a version of a repo, to a client who already has an older version, differing in a part the client already has. (The part the client has local checksums for). They shouldn't do that. The git client tells the server what commits it doesn't have, so this is simple to check.

Code signing could be a safeguard if people did it, but here they don't so it's moot. I found no mention of a signing key in this repo's docs.

The checksum tree could be a useful audit if there were a transparency log somewhere that git tools automatically checked against, but there isn't so it's moot. We put full trust in Microsoft's versions.

Lots of things could be helpful, but here and now in front of us is a source tree fully in Microsoft's control, with no visible safeguards against Microsoft doing something evil to it. Just like countless others. It's the default state of trust today.

bbarnett 3 days ago|||
Lots of things could be helpful, but here and now in front of us is a source tree fully in Microsoft's control, with no visible safeguards against Microsoft doing something evil to it. Just like countless others

But it's written in rust.

Aloisius 3 days ago||||
> The git client tells the server what commits it doesn't have, so this is simple to check.

That won't work. The first thing the client does is ask the server for list of references with their oids (ls-refs). It only asks for oids and reports what oids it has after the server responds.

You'd need another way to identify that the client asking for references was the same one you vended the tampered source tree to, otherwise, you'd need to respond with the refs' real oids and the fetch would fail since there's no way to get from the oid the user has to the real one.

cyberpunk 3 days ago||
Or use signed commits?
marginalia_nu 3 days ago||||
Because the developers have just that on their local machine...?

Git is a distributed vcs after all. Every checkout is its own complete git "hub".

perihelions 3 days ago||
Because GitHub can serve different bytes to different people. You log in as one of the project's devs, you get your own consistent, correct view of your project; some other people get malware instead. How do you reconcile the full picture? No one distrusts GitHub. There's no public log which git tools generically check against to see if GitHub is attempting something evil, the way they do with certificate transparency. GitHub is the public log.

Git may be designed as a distributed VCS; and it'd be a different situation if it were used that way in practice. For many projects, GitHub has a full MITM. They could even—forget about the checksums—bifurcate the views in between devs—accept commits from one dev, send over those commits with translated Merkle trees to another dev who has a corrupted history, and they'd never figure it out.

BobaFloutist 3 days ago|||
What happens when a dev tries to patch a bug in the malware and nobody can tell what the hell they're talking about?
saagarjha 3 days ago|||
Yes, but the moment you try to push your local git will complain that you are not aligned with the upstream repo.
perihelions 3 days ago||
Not so. GitHub would remember who you are; advertise to you and to you only a set of fake checksums consistent with your fake view of the repo. Your git client would see nothing amiss—your local fake checksums are consistent with the fake checksums the server sent you. Having accepted your push, the server would ignore the fake checksums, extract the content of your patch, apply it to the genuine repo, and compute a new set of checksums, extending the other checksum tree as if you had pushed directly to it. That's what an MITM is.
saagarjha 3 days ago||
This falls apart instantly if you share a hash with anyone else, though. Which is exactly what happens when you send in a PR
account42 3 days ago||
Most projects on GitHub have you submit PR's via GitHub infrastructure so they have total control over who sees what there as well.
rstuart4133 3 days ago|||
> I don't know why you'd trust a checksum structure your adversary has complete control over.

I think the point is they don't have complete control over it. Sure, they have complete control over the version that is on GitHub. But git is distributed, and the developers will have their own local copies. If Microsoft screwed with the checksums, and git checks them. The next developer pull or push would blow up.

perihelions 3 days ago||
> "The next developer pull or push would blow up."

If they're pushing or pulling to/from GitHub, then GitHub has a total MITM and is able to dynamically translate checksum trees in between devs' incompatible views of the repo.

cycomanic 3 days ago||
I don't understand. Can you explain how that would work? I thought the checksums are calculated on the contents, so how can they translate checksum trees that remain valid without changing the content (or vice versa)? This is my naive understanding, so I might be completely wrong, hence I ask.
perihelions 3 days ago||
That they'd change the content is the point—offer malware content for select targets, with corresponding malware checksums that are consistent with that malware and its entire history.

Those checksums would seem valid to the victims, as they're a self-consistent history of checksum trees they got directly from GitHub. The devs would be working with different checksum trees. GitHub would maintain both versions, serving different content and different checksums depending on who asks.

rstuart4133 2 days ago||
This seems to boil down to them keeping two repositories - presenting one to the logged in dev, and one to the public.

That might work for a while if dev isn't active. He would, for example have to not notice there was a new release, with an incremented version number that triggers updates. Even that doesn't work forever. Down stream dev's often look at the changes - for example a Debian maintainer usually runs his eye over the changes.

But if the dev is active this is going to be noticed pretty quickly. The branches will diverge, commit messages, feature announcements, bug reports, line numbers not matching up. It would require a skilled operator to keep them loosely in sync, and that's the best they could do.

Either way, sooner or later Microsoft's subterfuge would be discovered, and that is the death knell for this scenario. The outrage here and elsewhere would boil over. Open source would leave github en masse, Microsoft's reputation would be destroyed, they would lose top engineers. I don't have a high opinion of Microsoft's technical skills and leadership as they have been consistently demonstrated themselves to be inconsistent and unreliable. But the company too large and too successful to be psychotic. The shareholders, customers, and lawyers would have someones guts for garters if they pulled a stunt like that.

RS-232 3 days ago|||
Technically a Merkle DAG
goku12 3 days ago||
Both are correct. The commit history is a Merkle DAG. The tree under each commit is a Merkle tree.
aduffy 3 days ago||||
You’re welcome to read the code yourself once you check it out, it’s not very big. Supply chain attacks are a thing but I don’t think this is one.
untitaker_ 3 days ago||||
I don't think there are many options to host sourcecode and binaries in a way that is safe against an adversary like the US, and especially in such a way that technically illiterate users are protected. Because you'd have to assume that CAs are not off-limits either then.
EvanAnderson 3 days ago|||
Discussion about Rayhunter from 6 mos. ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43283917
HumblyTossed 3 days ago|||
I don’t know why your cellphone can’t do this. For example, It “knows” which towers are around your home. If all the sudden there’s a new one, pop up an alert.
nobody9999 3 days ago||
I use Network Cell Info Lite[0] for this purpose.

Sadly, it's only available in the Google/Apple stores (if anyone knows of a similar tool that's available elsewhere, I'd love to hear about it!)

It allows me to locate the "cell towers" I'm connecting to and that are nearby, as well as the devices around me, and will map them for me.

In fact, several years ago, I noted a brand spanking new "cell tower a block or so away (this is in NYC) that appeared to be in the street(!). It stayed there for a couple weeks and then was gone. It sure seemed like it was an IMSI catcher[1].

It's not directly the feature set you suggest, but can certainly be used to identify the towers near you -- and any new ones that might "pop up."

[0] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.wilysis.ce...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMSI-catcher

Edit: Another comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45189302 ) mentioned snoopsnitch (https://github.com/srlabs/snoopsnitch ) and other tools which, apparently can do similar (and more apropos to the topic at hand) things as Network Cell Info Lite.

riedel 3 days ago|||
IMSI catchers have been popular by police all over the world. Here are some other tools [0] [1].

Edit: Interesting also the collection of network security via gsmmap [2]

[0] https://gitweb.stoutner.com/?p=PrivacyCell.git;a=summary

[1] https://github.com/srlabs/snoopsnitch [2] https://gsmmap.org/

junebash 3 days ago|||
Would be a shame if someone used this to track down the ICE towers and vandalize them.
neilv 3 days ago|||
Maybe best not to joke about that.

An enthusiastic and muddle-headed person might get inspired by disposable Internet chatter, and then go and get themselves sent to federal prison (or worse).

Also, I suspect that an attack like that would only justify (or be used as a pretext for) additional actions that are undesirable to the perpetrator.

eviks 3 days ago||
Maybe best not to even reply to such jokes. An enthusiastic and muddle-headed person might be a contrarian and might get challenged by disposable Internet chatter to not do something and still do that and get themselves in trouble. Staying silent is the timeless strategy of having no effect on the world
neilv 3 days ago||
If there was someone for whom this strategy worked, they wouldn't speak up to tell us.
bigfatkitten 3 days ago||||
You won't find a "tower", you'll find an SUV or a hotel room with Pelican cases and armed officers inside.
dylan604 3 days ago||||
For $20, it's cheap enough to add to a drone for a targeting purpose
Imustaskforhelp 3 days ago||||
This "shame" is/would be a badge of honor, my friend.
dylan604 3 days ago|||
This shame feels like something that would get one extraordinarily renditioned to some black site where nobody would ever know about the shame
sho_hn 3 days ago|||
PSA: If you have to worry about your government taking people away to some black site, things have gotten pretty bad.
dragonwriter 3 days ago||
PSA: Things have indeed gotten pretty bad, which is also why were are discussing tech to detect (and some are discussing the possibility of countering) elements of the forces doing the disappearances.
th0ma5 3 days ago|||
True, but at least we know who was right.
dredmorbius 3 days ago|||
ThatsThePoint.jpg
elihu 3 days ago|||
Is running a fake cell tower technically against FCC regulations? Any possibility of just reporting them to the FCC and causing them to incur fines or take them down?
goku12 3 days ago||
The people at FCC are just government officials. They'd be foolish to antagonize the leadership of the executive branch based on just principles (I know how unscrupulous this sounds. But such are times). Besides, they are up against one of the most heavily funded rogue forces in the world that is also known to go after people outside their jurisdiction (citizens) with impunity.
anonymousiam 3 days ago|||
So does the EFF detector discriminate between Stingrays that are operating legally and those that are operating illegally?

I wonder what their lawyers think of this.

https://bja.ojp.gov/program/it/privacy-civil-liberties/autho...

like_any_other 3 days ago|||
If you have any precedent or ruling indicating that it is illegal for Americans to check for the presence of surveillance, please present it. Otherwise, I'm not aware of any duty of private citizens to remain willfully blind to their government's actions.
aduffy 3 days ago||||
There is nothing wrong with running a receive-only hotspot. Not sure what you’re implying here.
nxobject 3 days ago||||
Should it?
trympet 3 days ago|||
lol spot the fed
dang 3 days ago|||
Related:

Rayhunter – Rust tool to detect cell site simulators on an orbic mobile hotspot - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43283917 - March 2025 (23 comments)

jimt1234 3 days ago|||
I watched the presentation on Rayhunter at Defcon. Amazing stuff. Major kudos to the team.
boston_clone 3 days ago||
exactly what I'm looking for - much appreciated!!!
josefresco 3 days ago||
Additional context: https://san.com/cc/exclusive-evidence-of-cell-phone-surveill...

>At 8:58 a.m., just before the protest began, SAN began monitoring eight LTE bands present in the area and found no anomalous behavior. At 9:06 a.m., however, a burst of 57 IMSI-exposing commands was detected.

>Other bursts, present on four of the LTE frequency bands, appeared roughly every 10 minutes over the next hour, causing Marlin to issue numerous real-time alerts. A post-scan analysis confirmed the detection of 574 IMSI-exposing messages.

>It also flagged two “attach reject” messages, a type of cellular rejection sent when a cell phone tries to connect to a network. Attach rejects can occur for valid reasons, such as when a phone with an expired SIM card tries to connect to a network but such messages are rare on properly configured networks. IMSI catchers may use attach reject messages to block or downgrade connections and obtain an IMSI before it is encrypted. SAN observed the two suspicious messages at 9:55 a.m. and 10:04 a.m. at the height of the protest but did not encounter others before or after the demonstration ended.

>SAN conducted a follow-up scan during the same time period, the following day, when no protesters were present. Unlike the day prior, Marlin did not issue real-time alerts.

noselasd 3 days ago||
Those Attach Rejects should have a cause value, possibly telling a bit more on the reject reason.

I see those quite frequently, the bulk of them are phones trying to roam in a network they're not allowed to though, and some cause the cell is a bit overloaded, some cause the phone sends a wrong tracking area - not sure that's a phone bug or a common scenario where the phone retains an old tracking area, then it tries to connect to the same tracking area - then the phone discovers it's is now in a different tracking area, and after being rejected, it connects with the correct one.

542354234235 2 days ago||
True but they happen because of individual phones. If you have bursts of those across dozens of devices, that indicates it is on the network side. Also, cell tower handoffs usually don't require Attach Rejects and are generally normal routine operations.
notherhack 3 days ago|||
SAN doesn't say where the unusual tower traffic originated. Does the Marlin system attempt to geolocate and identify the suspicious transmitters?

Could the regular mobile tower operators collect subscriber identities at will via their regular gear, with no stingray vans or warrants required, and save the information for later? That seems to be how it's done with the other subscriber location and communication contents that they collect.

perihelions 3 days ago||
I.e. the inference is that ICE is unconstitutionally tracking and assembling lists of protestors exercising their First Amendment rights.

> "A post-scan analysis confirmed the detection of 574 IMSI-exposing messages."

That's roughly 574 unique protestors, give or take.

Full-on autocratic tyranny—this is also what Putin's oligarchs did to Ukranians at the Maidan Protests, in Kyiv in 2014. Used IMSI-catchers to assemble lists of everyone present, and intimidate them.

https://slate.com/technology/2014/01/ukraine-texting-euromai... ("How Did Ukraine’s Government Text Threats to Kiev’s EuroMaidan Protesters?" (2014)).

MiiMe19 3 days ago|||
[flagged]
perihelions 3 days ago||
The article I'm replying to is the parent comment's "Exclusive: Evidence of cell phone surveillance detected at anti-ICE protest"; not the HN OP.
exe34 3 days ago||
"Earlier this year, new media publication Straight Arrow News said it had analysed “mobile network anomalies” around a Washington state protest against ICE raids that were consistent with Stingray use."
meetpatelcurry 3 days ago||||
[dead]
xp84 3 days ago||||
[flagged]
perihelions 3 days ago|||
IMSI catchers aren't observing things in plain sight; they're invasive searches that the Fourth Amendment prohibits outside of narrowly-defined circumstances.

The First Amendment precludes protected political speech from being used as a basis for such a search.

The Fourth Amendment further prohibits dragnet searches of indefinite groups of people, such as a protest, because it requires a warrant to "particularly describe" the "persons or things to be seized". (The "Particularity Clause").

I fully agree with your comment in the different case, which is not this case, where government merely passively observes things happening in a public space. IMSI catchers are different; one way being, in that a Stingray *actively interacts with* a device, without authorization, by sending it corrupted packets. (So I understand). A second way being that it violates general social expectations of what's in "public" and what's in "private"; by analogy, if police used laser microphones to listen in on faraway conversations; or in public crowds, used terahertz radiation to look under people's clothes; those are non-public searches, any pedantic interpretations of physics notwithstanding.

some_guy_nobel 3 days ago||||
Courts have repeatedly held that the government cannot chill lawful protest activity by imposing undue surveillance or intimidation. Sure, there is no explicit “right to anonymity,” but the Supreme Court has recognized in cases like NAACP v. Alabama (1958) that forced disclosure of membership lists can violate First Amendment rights, because it deters participation and chills association.

Of course, the Fourth Amendment also has clauses against “unreasonable searches and seizures.” I'm not a constitutional lawyer, but it's easy to see, from modern cases like Carpenter v. United States (2018) (which limited warrantless cellphone location tracking) why this could be perceived poorly.

But the Constitution tries to ensure that risk doesn’t come from government retaliation against lawful expression. I would ask why you're so keen to allow it.

xp84 3 days ago||
> forced disclosure of membership lists

Sure, that sounds bad. But also very different than a mob of masked protestors who feel entitled to anonymous protest.

Protestors should be proud to be there and shouldn't feel the need to hide their identities. Not in this country at least. For all the hysterical comparisons, this isn't Putin's Russia. They aren't just kidnapping random citizens and disappearing them for participating in a protest. On the other hand, during "peaceful protests" when people start destroying the city under cover of the protest, yeah, I do want those people to be arrested and tried.

some_guy_nobel 3 days ago|||
> But also very different than a mob of masked protestors who feel entitled to anonymous protest.

Well, the links above explain exactly why there is debate around whether or not protestors are entitled to anonymous protests.

> On the other hand, during "peaceful protests" when people start destroying the city under cover of the protest, yeah, I do want those people to be arrested and tried.

I agree, but I would not trade my constitutional rights for some small (or large) property damage, that happens very rarely. (The last few weekends saw hundreds of protests across the nation - how much looting or other did you see?)

Unfortunately, this country is full of people that fall prey to newsroom propaganda, become emotional, and would gladly trade away their rights. It's a shame that those decisions affect everyone else, as well.

8note 3 days ago||||
it seems prudent to protect your identity from that collection, when in 6months time, the government might be kidnapping and disappearing citizens.

even still, not everyone is a citizen and the government seems to believe that protesting is a reason to remove a greencard. Not everyone wants to spend a month incorrectly detained

nxobject 3 days ago|||
> Protestors should be proud to be there and shouldn't feel the need to hide their identities. Not in this country at least. For all the hysterical comparisons, this isn't Putin's Russia. They aren't just kidnapping random citizens and disappearing them for participating in a protest. On the other hand, during "peaceful protests" when people start destroying the city under cover of the protest, yeah, I do want those people to be arrested and tried.

We're less than a year into the administration: think it's a little bit early to be assuming that those abuses of power won't happen.

const_cast 3 days ago||||
> What part of the constitution guarantees me the right to be anonymous while I protest?

The fourth amendment: unreasonable searches and seizures. This is an unreasonable search.

Also, protests aren't civil disobedience. Civil disobedience is civil disobedience. Protests are explicitly protected by the first amendment and you can protest all day long.

xp84 3 days ago||
[flagged]
const_cast 3 days ago|||
> If protesters aren't breaking any law, we have seen no evidence they have any reason to worry about anything being discussed here.

Completely legal protests are met with unreasonable searches, seizures, and even violence all the time in the US. We saw it all the time with BLM. Yes, they need to worry about that.

boston_clone 3 days ago|||
Start at the Fourth Amendment. (I guess the First would be more appropriate place to start, but the Fourth is quite pertinent.)

Also,

> [...] if you disagree with me and think the government is fascist and thus can't be trusted not to throw you in prison just for saying things they don't like

this is happening:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/crime/general/tourist-refused-entr...

edited for phrasing / completeness

xp84 3 days ago||
This seems like an apples/oranges comparison.

The constitution is pretty silent afaik on whether random foreign nationals such as this tourist have any particular rights. Obviously summarily executing or imprisoning them would be a big no-no, but being asked lots of questions and thoroughly searched because they think you're a troublemaker is not uncommon. Being refused entry to a country that isn't yours and being home safe by the end of the day, is quite a few huge leaps away from being locked up in your own country for your speech.

Do I think that incident sounds like a stupid move by CBP if that is the whole story[1]? Yeah. But I disagree that it's proof we're in a fascist dictatorship.

[1] Is it also possible that the government agents didn't overhear him making some flippant comment that made him seem far more dangerous? For instance, "Yeah I can't believe I'm even coming here when that fascist Trump was elected. Wish that bullet hadn't missed." If he had said or done something to cause it to happen, you can bet he would have forgotten to mention it when he recounted his story to The Daily Star.

tiahura 3 days ago|||
How do you know there wasn’t a warrant?
lordhumphrey 3 days ago|||
Whether an action has gotten a legal thumbs-up or not is of little relevance here.

I'd like to leave the question of why that's true as an exercise for the reader, but your comment makes it sound as if you have trouble with this concept, so let's be explicit - a state operating autocratically can, and often will, rubberstamp whatever it decides it wants to do.

Had a quick look for the numbers from FISA to give you an example of this. https://www.motherjones.com/criminal-justice/2013/06/fisa-co... says that they denied 11 requests for surveillance warrants out of 33,900 requests over 33 years of operation.

That's a pass rate of 99.07%!

So allow me to say - a warrant wouldn't have changed anything, they give them out like nothing.

In the article though, it does say: "ICE did not respond to requests for comment from SAN. It is not clear whether ICE or any other law enforcement agency obtained a warrant to use an IMSI catcher — commonly referred to as a “Stingray” — to conduct surveillance."

Levitz 3 days ago|||
>Whether an action has gotten a legal thumbs-up or not is of little relevance here.

On the contrary, I don't think there's anything more relevant.

That such action can be legal speaks volumes about the state of what is legal and tolerated within the US. This, like pretty much everything about the current administration, is not explicitly about Trump, but something that has been cooking for at the very least the past two decades.

anecdatas 3 days ago||
It's relevant in the sense of "is this an indicator of increasing autocracy" but not relevant in the sense of "does the presence of the warrant indicate this is ok".

I think the parent poster is saying that the present of a warrant does not make the action not autocratic. And you are disagreeing with a different idea (that the presence of a warrant doesn't matter at all), by saying it does matter, but in the opposite way -- if a warrant is present that indicates the state is losing checks and balances.

smcin 3 days ago||||
99.967%
taeric 3 days ago||||
I mean... I get paranoia, but this is arguing that an audit trail is not useful?

That is, a high pass rate could also indicate that it is a well functioning system with few spurious requests and none that are lacking required information.

Does requiring a warrant guarantee best behavior? No. But it does provide a solid path for accountability and a path to codify better rules, when abused.

tiahura 3 days ago|||
It seems like it would be hard to make pronouncements about the error rate without knowing the actual rate of unsupportable requests? Moreover, you’re referencing FISA warrants which are so unlike typical warrants that constructing arguments based on FISA practice is risky.

Point me to an article if I’m wrong, but I haven’t heard even a single credible rumor that these Stingrays aren’t being used for exactly what authorities say they are - trying to find particular individuals is a general area. Have you heard of whistleblower accounts or accidentally leaked details about large scale storage ordata mining of location data from Stingrays?

If your argument is simply that law enforcement agencies don’t have the right to conduct a dragnet when pursuing a fugitive murderer, as is the case here, you’re going to need something more persuasive than a rant against authoritarianism.

perihelions 3 days ago||||
It'd be flatly unconstitutional to approve a dragnet warrant targeting a protest.
dmix 3 days ago|||
They wouldn't necessarily be targeting the whole protest, the IMSI catcher would work broadly and from that the warrant would require them to narrow down to one and ignore rest. Unless I misunderstood the technical details the parent comment posted.

This broad dragnet nature of Stingray collection has always been why it's been a major privacy issue. Like doing a wiretap by tapping the whole neighbourhood and filtering phone calls for a certain address.

cosmicgadget 3 days ago||||
After reading Kavanaugh's latest concurrence I am not so sure.
Yeul 3 days ago||
Whoever thought it was a good idea to let a president appoint the supreme court was a naive fool.
dylan604 3 days ago|||
Appoint, yet still needing Senate approval is probably what made this palatable to the founding fathers. I'm guessing the old white dudes in wigs never thought that the Senate would abdicate its role by become subservient to one old dude if not in a powdered wig at least in powdered face
smcin 3 days ago||||
But the Senate Judiciary Ctte and then the full Senate get to vote.

Remember Kavanaugh's confirmation vote in 2018 was 50-48, Lisa Murkowski (R-AK) voted against, Susan Collins for, Joe Manchin (D-WV) also for [0]. Susan Collins' reluctant-voice-of-moderation act has run out of steam, finally, probably decades overdue

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brett_Kavanaugh_Supreme_Court_...

Yeul 3 days ago||
Unfortunately American politics has completely deteriorated to a civil war between red and blue.

Which I suppose is another thing that was predicted but not acted upon: the establishment of political parties.

vkou 3 days ago|||
Given that the Supreme Court has managed to appoint[1] two presidents in the past thirty years, I'd say that the Gordian knot has tightened.

[1] Bush 2000, and less directly but far more dangerously, by making Trump unprosecutable in the run-up to 2024.

tiahura 3 days ago|||
In a recently-unsealed search warrant reviewed by Forbes, ICE used such a cell-site simulator in an attempt to track down an individual in Orem, Utah.

Maybe you missed it when you read the article?

perihelions 3 days ago||
The article[0] I'm replying to is about a political protest in Tukwila, Washington.

[0] https://san.com/cc/exclusive-evidence-of-cell-phone-surveill...

loeg 3 days ago||
(It establishes that it is possible to obtain a warrant to use this device. One could have been obtained in Tukwila.)
vkou 3 days ago||||
When you treat with someone you know to be a compulsive liar, the onus of proof is on them.

If this government has not proven that they had one, you'd be mad to trust that they did.

There are no consequences to it for lying, or for not following the law, or not acting in good faith. It has a well-documented history of doing all three, and is headed by a convicted criminal.

analognoise 3 days ago||||
Can we stop sanewashing these people?

They clearly don't care for legality, constitutionality, anything positive or good.

tiahura 3 days ago||
[flagged]
Refreeze5224 3 days ago|||
Please argue in good faith. "Just because xyz" is not. It's asking to ignore tons of evidence and explicit speech to the contrary.
vharuck 3 days ago|||
This is an administration that once had a man who, during a meeting about deportations attended by department lawyers, in response to what would be done if the courts rejected their rationale, said "Fuck the courts."

This man is no longer part of the administration. But not because he was fired for this blatant disregard for the judicial branch. It's because he was nominated to be a judge (and the Senate confirmed him).

throwawayq3423 3 days ago|||
A warrant for several thousand people at a spontaneous event ?
xrd 3 days ago||
It would be amazing if an authoritarian government like that in Venezuela could just "facilitate" (such a funny word these days) getting a single convicted murderer into the US and then turn the US into the same kind of authoritarian government.

Whoops, I hope no other country in conflict with the US gets this idea, that pool has expanded significantly lately!

I recall reading about the people who slammed planes into the World Trade Center towers. They were not hell bent on destroying buildings, they were hell bent on destroying society of the US, destroying buildings was just a stepping stone. And, sure seems like they succeeded.

kps30 3 days ago||
Castro did that. Google Mariel Boatlift of 1980.

But the US is not in decline because of whatever anyone from outside does. It's following the same cycle all Hegemons go through over 100-200 years. Whether its Greece, Babylon, Eygpt, Rome, Islamic Caliphates or all the later European powers. They all went through a similar a cycle - rise - dominate - decline. See Oswald Spengler - Rise and Fall of the West written 100 years ago.

bloomingeek 3 days ago||
You're referring to history, which nobody gives a care about it seems. Here in the US, it's as if we're living in a bad sci-fi/horror movie the last ten years. People argue about politics, forgetting to hold politicians accountable to any laws. Most of SCOTUS is a party stooge and the POTUS is a mafia type thug, basically blackmailing corporations and law firms. Trouble is, this "cycle" will most likely have world wide repercussions and in a lot of cases already has.
pjc50 3 days ago|||
The Venezuelan murderer doesn't actually have to exist for that to happen.
xrd 3 days ago||
Good point, you could, for example, accuse someone of being equivalently dangerous, say in the MS-13 gang, illegally deport him without due process, and then hold up a doctored photo with those initials tattooed on his hands and insist he had those tattoos on his hands.

Then, just do whatever the hell you want all the name of protecting people from crime and protecting jobs.

What am I saying, that's completely ridiculous and could never happen in a "law and order" country like the US.

Yeul 3 days ago||
Man I'm old enough to remember how right wing America was angry about the FBI raid in Waco.

Nobody really gives a shit about the constitution it is all about ideology. ICE is going after immigrants so nobody cares about the razzias.

dpkirchner 3 days ago|||
It would be extremely easy:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna206917

> Mexico’s security chief confirmed Tuesday that 17 family members of cartel leaders crossed into the U.S. last week as part of a deal between a son of the former head of the Sinaloa Cartel and the Trump administration.

I don't know how Republicans continue to support this administration. Maybe they just don't know he's aiding criminals?

like_any_other 3 days ago|||
> He believed that was the case because the former cartel boss, whose lawyer said in January he had entered negotiations with U.S. authorities, had been pointing fingers at members of other criminal organizations likely as part of a cooperation agreement.

> “It is evident that his family is going to the U.S. because of a negotiation or an offer that the Department of Justice is giving him,” Garcia Harfuch said.

Looks like they're getting protection in exchange for testimony against other cartels.

autoexec 3 days ago|||
> . Maybe they just don't know he's aiding criminals?

I mean, our president is a criminal himself. Repeatedly violating the law and the constitution while in office. At this point those supporting the regime must doing it out of either cowardice or malice

dylan604 3 days ago||
> I mean, our president is a criminal himself. Repeatedly violating the law and the constitution while in office

Allegedly. No convictions have come from any of the accusations as POTUS.

autoexec 3 days ago|||
> No convictions have come from any of the accusations as POTUS.

I'm not sure we'll ever see one since the supreme court is in his pocket and has already ruled that that the president is allowed to commit crimes as long as it was an "official act" as determined on a case by case basis by the court

dylan604 2 days ago||
That's through the courts. There is still the concept of impeachment+conviction which is what Trump was arguing was the only way to deal with presedential misbehavior. Of course he was leaning on the knowledge that his party's control of congress would make that a non-starter as well
malcolmgreaves 2 days ago|||
He is a convicted criminal. He committed fraud and was found guilty in New York.
GLdRH 3 days ago|||
That's why the orange man is protecting the border
xrd 3 days ago|||
I just can't wrap my head around why spending $500M to paint the wall is protecting me from a Venezuelan murderer. Do Venezuelan murderers see them like colorful poisonous dart frogs and avoid them somehow?

https://factually.co/fact-checks/politics/border-wall-paint-...

vkou 3 days ago|||
They don't, which is why racial profiling is back on the menu.

Citizens on the streets don't need to show their papers to ICE, but that's been worked around by yesterday's SCOTUS. Being brown at Home Depot is now sufficient cause to get arrested by ICE.

brownppllovet 3 days ago||
[flagged]
dylan604 3 days ago|||
It's funny to me how Build That Wall was such a key part of Trump 45 but is a giant nothing burger for Trump 47. How could it be that it is so much less important just 4 years later, oh, right, never mind
maxerickson 3 days ago|||
Begs the question.
apwell23 3 days ago||
>I recall reading about the people who slammed planes into the World Trade Center towers. They were not hell bent on destroying buildings, they were hell bent on destroying society of the US, destroying buildings was just a stepping stone. And, sure seems like they succeeded.

nah someone made all that up after the fact

vlabakje90 3 days ago||
Al Zawahiri's Knights Under the Prophet’s Banner argued that spectacular attacks should provoke U.S. overreach, bleed it economically, and expose its weakness. That was published in 2001. After 9/11, but only by two months.
tolerance 3 days ago||
Am I wrong for suspecting that the policy that colors the current Administration’s tyranny has its roots in those prior (Bush II, Obama)? Were we not warned of the possible consequences when less sensational or consenting news broke back then?
kristopolous 3 days ago||
I was certainly talking about exactly this.

Trust me, people thought you were some wild crazy freak.

See here's how it works, watch:

There's going to be concentration camps. The volume of deportation required demands it. There always needs to be two sides agreeing in a deportation, the sending and the receiving. If there's a bottleneck at the receiving or an incompetence in the sending then you warehouse. It's inherent to any logistics.

No that feeling you have that I'm crazy, that's what I'm talking about.

Anyways... See you in a year or so and I'll link back to this.

stuartjohnson12 3 days ago|||
I normally try to avoid commenting on politics because this account is tied to my identity and therefore my profession and it's generally not advisable to tie those things together.

So it is with no degree of lightness that I say that I agree and this concerns me gravely.

potato3732842 3 days ago||
The time to be concerned was 10-15yr ago when these tactics were being normalized (if you take issue with the means) and the policies that teed up the current immigration showdown were being figured out (if you take issue with the end).
boston_clone 2 days ago||
To paraphrase planting trees for shade, the second best time to be concerned is right now.
account42 3 days ago||||
Maybe the people who have enabled massive illegal immigration should have thought of the consequences.
tolerance 3 days ago||||
The general consensus in response to this suggests a non-trivial shift in the Overton window in the last 20 years.

How about we rain check...see you in 5–10?

h4ck_th3_pl4n3t 3 days ago|||
The solution to the warehouse cost problem is pretty easy, you just need to burn them because ashes are more compact, ergo less transportation costs.

You just don't want to realize that this has nothing to do with ethics anymore. It's about control and money.

bloomingeek 3 days ago|||
Absolutely, we were warned. No one heeded and then came the destruction of the Republican party by the likes of Rush, Newt and Rove who convinced the voting public everyone is evil who doesn't agree with them. Centrist and left leaning voters hoped it would just run it's course and go away, then evangelicals signed up with the Republicans and here we are.
EasyMark 3 days ago|||
they've lost all sense of nuance. Everyone is evil if they don't have an R beside their name. It's all about shutting off the brain and trusting the process (of indoctrination)
tolerance 3 days ago|||
Right, I’ve heard this story before. But what are we attributing to whom we’d otherwise label incompetent or malicious from among the center and left, from among the electorate and the elected?

Or, what absolves them from not being held accountable for not taking heed to these warnings, being passive?

anecdatas 3 days ago|||
The left was a Cassandra the whole time -- it's been nothing but warnings from the left. The Democrats (note: the Dems are not a left party) refused to listen, assuring everyone it was fine, that we just needed to return to norms and decorum. If we just elected the most proper guy, if we just went a little more rightwards in our policies, all this would be fine.

Meanwhile, the left out there pointing at Obama's extrajudicial killings, Bush's whole post 9/11 fiasco, Clinton's "Superpredators" nonsense, etc. etc. and making tons of noise about how this was all going to end.

Turns out, the left was right, the Dems were wrong. But the Dems are still fighting to try and shut down the left. Look at how hard the Dem establishment hates Mamdani.

tolerance 3 days ago|||
My line of questioning could be interpreted as a conflation of the left ("the electorate") with Democrats ("the elected"). Thanks for pointing out that distinction. I think it offers some directive as far as accountability can be considered.

I’m curious to see where the Mamdani Experiment takes you all. His constituents are one group who are for certain no stranger to the armed presence reported elsewhere today. Under pretenses all too familiar.

ThrowMeAway1618 3 days ago||
>I’m curious to see where the Mamdani Experiment takes you all. His constituents are one group who are for certain no stranger to the armed presence reported elsewhere today. Under pretenses all too familiar.

What are you going on about? Mamdani may or may not be a good mayor for NYC. Ask me in two years.

But he's not some sort of jihadi, Commie pinko. He's a New Yorker who is actually talking about issues that New Yorkers care about.

It certainly helps that his competition are a disgraced serial sexual harasser (Cuomo), a corrupt sitting mayor whose administration (as well as himself) is riddled with corruption and a lack of accountability (Adams) and a clownish jerk whose claim to fame is that he used to ride the subways at night with his gang and beat up whoever they felt like (Sliwa).

Given the competition. is it any wonder that Mamdani is a cinch to win the mayoralty?

And all that has absolutely zero to do with the mud being slung at him. He will be the next mayor of NYC and I look forward to his tenure -- especially since it means the other folks will go away, at least for a few years.

Mamdani may suck at being mayor. I don't know. But it would be difficult for him to be worse than his field of opponents.

And none of that stuff has anything to do with national politics or the DNC.

I say all this as an old white guy of Jewish extraction.

I don't know where you're from or where you live, but you're talking out of your ass and it smells that way too. Yuck!

Edit: I may have, as anecdata (thanks for calling me out, anecdata!) suggested (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45193191 ), misunderstood your post. Upon reflection, I probably should have been more charitable in my reading of it. That said, you're flat wrong about Mamdani's "constituents." He, for the reasons I mentioned above, is supported not just by the minorities being targeted by the Trump administration, but by huge numbers of regular New Yorkers (of all ethnicities and melanin content levels), because he's the best candidate.

I'd add that Mamdani didn't just fly in from an Iranian terrorist training camp to run for mayor. He grew up in NYC, went to NYC public schools and has been an elected member of the New York State Assembly for the past four years.

If I misunderstood your comment as to Mamdani, his constituents (the residents of State Assembly District 36 in Queens), and/or his validity/viability as a mayoral candidate, my apologies.

dotnet00 3 days ago|||
They weren't attacking Mamdani, they were saying that it would be interesting how things play out, considering that, being a brown person, he's in the group of people that the RNC would love to toss into a camp before making them disappear.
ThrowMeAway1618 3 days ago||
Yeah. I get that now.

It's an interesting, if horrifying thought -- stripping someone of their citizenship because folks don't like his religion and/or level of melanin.

It's disgusting.

I said it already, but I'll say it again -- I have no idea whether or not Mamdani will make a good mayor -- but he's far and away the best candidate in the race.

anecdatas 3 days ago|||
I think the person you are responding to was suggesting Mamdani voters were likely the sort of people who are being targeted by the current administration. I think you might be misunderstanding their (admittedly obtuse) post.
ThrowMeAway1618 3 days ago||
Thanks for pointing that out.

I should have been more charitable in my reading of GP's comment.

I've edited my comment to reflect that.

McAlpine5892 3 days ago|||
> Meanwhile, the left out there pointing at Obama's extrajudicial killings, Bush's whole post 9/11 fiasco, Clinton's "Superpredators" nonsense, etc. etc. and making tons of noise about how this was all going to end.

I had a whole comment written up but, meh. The noisy people are made out to be conspiracy theorists, even when someone like Chomsky brings all the receipts. People want to believe the person they voted for is the "good guy" in a superhero sort of way.

Trump is partly able to do what he does because of these extreme expansion of powers from previous presidents. This is why "but my guy good!!" is among the worst forms of reasoning for justify $bad_thing.

anecdatas 3 days ago||
> The noisy people are made out to be conspiracy theorists, even when someone like Chomsky brings all the receipts.

Yes. This is what I was saying: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra

McAlpine5892 3 days ago||
My bad! Learned a new expression today.
Terr_ 3 days ago|||
They aren't absolved, but it's pretty normal to put more blame and attention on willful criminals as opposed to neglectful bystanders.
AnishLaddha 3 days ago|||
since reagan, actually: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitary_executive_theory

John Yoo is probably the most influential lawyer of the 21st century.

EasyMark 3 days ago|||
the president's power has expanded far too much over the past 30 years. The supreme court and congress are really failing at their jobs.
efreak 3 days ago||
Closer to 100 years iirc. Didn't presidential power start expanding in the 30s?
cheald 3 days ago|||
The use of Stingrays to conduct mass surveillance dates back decades, yes.
potato3732842 3 days ago||
>Were we not warned of the possible consequences when less sensational or consenting news broke back then?

People were screeching about this stuff then but they were brushed off by as "conspiracy weirdos" or "yeah they're probably doing it but who cares because it'd be unconstitutional" or "they won't use it on petty criminals" depending upon the exact year and political context you brought it up in.

xp84 3 days ago||
> ICE used such a cell-site simulator in an attempt to track down an individual in Orem, Utah. The suspect had been ordered to leave the U.S. in 2023, but is believed to still be in the country. Investigators learned last month that before going to Utah, he’d escaped prison in Venezuela where he was serving a sentence for murder, according to the warrant. He’s also suspected of being linked to gang activity in the country, investigators said.

Sounds like a real cool guy.

Wiretaps have always been a tool in law enforcement's hands, and if it's subject to a warrant, which the article goes on to say it was, I am completely fine with this. If the ability to tap phone conversations 75 years ago didn't cause us to descend into fascism, I don't automatically think this is scary.

TheJoeMan 3 days ago||
I'm totally against running Stingrays willy-nilly at protests, but this story seems like a non-issue. They had a warrant to track someone down, narrowed it to 30 blocks, then used the Stingray for final location tracking. Doesn't sound like they were logging IMEI's or interested in traffic.
whatsupdog 3 days ago||
I'm tired of people protecting these murderous criminals who don't give two sh*s about any laws. This lack of empathy (for the victims of these criminals) is appalling.
JohnMakin 3 days ago|||
The thing that annoys me most about such thoughts is not the callousness - it’s the extremely short sighted opinion that the same tactics won’t eventually be used on them, or people they care about. It never even occurs to them that can happen until it does.

Erosion of anyone’s rights is an erosion of everyone’s rights.

bloomingeek 3 days ago||
Absolutely, we older types used to argue with the term, "slippery slope". ICE is a classic slippery slope that will most likely be used, eventually, against all of us if the current administration isn't stopped breaking the law.
brewtide 3 days ago|||
This 100%. It's like a private army is being built, especially with the masks/secrecy aspects of it. Terrifying.
bloomingeek 3 days ago||
ICE and the use of the National Guard is very terrifying. The current administration could use them both to try to hold onto power when it terms out. The lunacy of SCOTUS and congress is beyond the pale. If, and I do mean if, the Epstein situation blows up on the big orange dummy, no one should doubt he will try to declare some type of marshall law to stay above the law. Then we will find out if the National Guard members really pledged allegiance to the Constitution.
xp84 3 days ago|||
[flagged]
meesles 3 days ago|||
I would point out that as of 3 years ago, green card holders felt completely safe in their legality as long as they were not committing crimes. This has now changed.

The balance has already slid and change that people never expected has happened. Assuming it won't happen more is foolish IMO.

There's also been recent talk about going after 'recently naturalized' individuals the admin considers criminals. How many years is 'recently'?

zephharben 3 days ago||||
Wanting our government to treat our neighbors like human beings rather than vermin is not "partisan brainrot", it is actually a clear-eyed reaction to both the current circumstances, and human history over the last 90 years.

Signed, a Jew with a personal background in these matters.

anecdatas 3 days ago||||
> No, Immigration isn't going to be sent door to door to do something bad to citizens.

You've got a whole lot of history to read. Because this is exactly what has happened in the past. You don't think this has happened to the Romans? The Russians? The Italians? The Germans? The Spanish?

This is a classic maneuver of a state sliding into autocracy -- if you cannot find enemies outside the state, you find them within the state. Go read Umberto Eco's Ur-Fascism then come back.

autoexec 3 days ago||||
You realize that US-born American citizens are already being rounded up, kept prisoner, sent deportation letters, etc.
cruano 3 days ago||||
What do you think "Homegrowns are next" means exactly ?
fzeroracer 3 days ago|||
The Supreme Court literally just signed off on doing just this based off of racially profiling people. Trump has threatened to deport even some of his biggest sycophants like Elon Musk. They've been harassing people that DO have a legal basis to be in the country and finding ways to deport them anyways. Hell, they've even admitted, openly, to looking for avenues to denaturalize people so that they can be deported.

This isn't 'partisan brainrot', this is literally and explicitly what they are saying and doing.

542354234235 2 days ago||||
“It is better, so the Fourth Amendment teaches us, that the guilty sometimes go free than the citizens be subject to easy arrest.” - Former Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
chasd00 3 days ago||||
> I'm tired of people protecting these murderous criminals who don't give two sh*s about any laws. This lack of empathy (for the victims of these criminals) is appalling.

wait, are you talking about this guy and the people they killed in Venezuela or ICE?

whatsupdog 3 days ago||
Isn't it obvious? How many people has ICE killed extra judicially?
nxobject 3 days ago|||
Do deaths in detention count? [0] 12 so far since the administration began through August (data only being published after 90 days.) Of course, nothing's stopping the administration from using "probable cause" to detain anyone suspicious - like citizens (or at least brown citizens.) [1]

[0] https://www.ice.gov/detain/detainee-death-reporting

[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/us-citizen-detained-ice...

aero_code 3 days ago||
No, ICE did not kill those people. I looked through the latest six this year. Two were suicides (one suicide was of a man who had state charges against him for several crimes including child molestation), one was someone who had diabetes and refused to take insulin, and the others seem to have had other health issues. They got medical care many different times.

I think it is misleading to conflate murder with people dying of health issues in detention after medical care.

nxobject 3 days ago||
I think it's also misleading to call it people dying of health issues. But after years of knowing, under multiple administrations, that even the pre-Trump ICE detention regime killed detainees due to medical assessment delayed and care denied [0], the weight of the evidence points currently points to ICE being malicious, not ignorant: ICE currently knowingly detaining medically frail individuals, without care corresponding to their needs, knowing that a random subset would die due to circumstances that ICE could have chosen to change, but didn't.

Therefore, I think that what is happening does rise to extrajudicial killing - killing that ICE chose not to prevent but to maintain; and inevitable killing without any corresponding sentence.

Forgive me for not taking ICE at face value. I looked through the next four accounts – assuming that, at that point there would be sufficient independent reporting that would either complement or contradict ICE's accounts.

The next four individuals died preventable deaths due to care ignored (e.g. in the case of Nhon Nguyen, who was detained with dementia), or denied (e.g. in the case of Maksym Chernyak, who was unconscious after fainting for hours until detention guards provided medical attention too late.)

- Marie Ange Blaise's death (#7) was blamed by ICE on blood pressure medication noncompliance. The narrative stitched together from Broward County medical examiner reporting, along with detainee testimony, instead argues that she fainted after taking blood pressure medications, and it took at least 8 minutes for medical attention to arrive (after a guard walked away) [1].

- Nhon Nguyen (#8) was, according to his family, detained while living with advanced dementia, and according his death report, bounced backwards and forwards between hospitals and his detention processing center before dying of avoidable pneumonia [2].

- Brayan Garzón-Rayo (#9) died by suicide after repeatedly being denied a mental health evaluation - once due to short-staffing, next due to contracting COVID-19. [3]

- Maksym Chernyak (#10) fainted - possibly due to overdose - but was denied care for hours despite attempts by others detained with him to draw attention; his death was attributed to a stroke. [4]

[0] https://phr.org/our-work/resources/deadly-failures-preventab... [1] https://www.wlrn.org/immigration/2025-08-01/haitian-ice-deat... [2] https://www.abqjournal.com/news/article_7519bc08-a416-4275-a... [3] https://www.kcur.org/news/2025-05-13/missouri-man-who-died-b... [4] https://www.pressdemocrat.com/2025/04/24/as-immigrant-arrest...

anecdatas 3 days ago|||
Most likely in the hundreds if you count the deaths in detention, the deaths due to deportation to unsafe or unsanitary locations, and the suicides attributable to their actions.

This is based on a historical accounting of ~1 death a month in their direct care over the past 5 years, plus assuming at least as many due to other root causes. I expect that number to increase as they continue to expand operations and worsen protections for detainees.

cindyllm 2 days ago|||
[dead]
daft_pink 2 days ago||
Really wish Apple would allow us to lock our phones to 5g standalone so we can choose to make fake cell towers a thing of the past.

Update: I quickly searched this to see if it was available on the latest version of iOS and you can mostly use it on T-mobile USA with ios 17+. As they have enable support for 5g SA nationwide. if your SIM card has enabled 5G SA provisioning and if you set the iPhone to 5G On, it will not fall back in any area that has good T-mobile reception meaning they would have to turn off T-mobiles towers or you to be in a deadspot for the IMSI catcher to work. If you enter field test mode you can confirm that you are provisioned for NR SA in area that T-mobile has it’s own good towers with good reception. If it shows up you are provisioned. If not you can call t-mobile and ask that they provision it but many newer sims are provisioned with 5g SA by default and you can use 5G On setting instead of auto to only be vulnerable to downgrade attacks in weak signal areas and deadzones. I’m not an expert on this so if I’m wrong please comment.

zOneLetter 3 days ago||
How would one go about detecting the IMSI commands? Would an advanced radio receiver be able to see these? I know pretty much nothing about SIGINT but been contemplating spending some time learning about it.
yencabulator 3 days ago|
https://github.com/EFForg/rayhunter/
notherhack 2 days ago||
" So far Rayhunter has not turned up any evidence of cell-site simulators being used to spy on protests in the US — though we have found them in use elsewhere. ... But we’ve received reports from a lot of protests, including pro-Palestine protests, protests in Washington DC and Los Angeles, as well as the ‘No Kings’ and ‘50501’ protests all over the country. So far, we haven’t seen evidence of CSS use at any of them. "
yencabulator 2 days ago||
Sounds like that's now stale information:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45184758

JumpCrisscross 3 days ago||
The article describes a search conducted with a warrant. Given the brazen criminality ICE agents are acting with, I’d like to see evidence of malpractice before risking diluting the message.
rhcom2 3 days ago||
The argument with Stringrays is that even with a warrant to target an individual the police end up sucking up a large amount of random people's location and cell phone data.

Like license plate readers and facial recognition, you're out in the world without the expectation of privacy but I think for most people that feels different when a giant automated system is sucking everything up without recourse.

EasyMark 3 days ago|||
WHile I don't expect privacy, I want it, and I want other people to really think about it and not want public surveillance as well. We should have some expectation of privacy out in public and not allow a loophole of "oh, but we were looking for someone else but also saw you", it's a huge loophole with essentially no limits. A warrant should cover one "thing" a person, group, etc. Anything else grabbed in the process should not be admissible in court or even be used by the police.
tiahura 3 days ago|||
[flagged]
MangoToupe 3 days ago|||
I hardly think the courts are above malpractice. They seemed fine with the patriot act, for instance. Citizens United is the definition of malpractice in my book, essentially legalizing corruption.
chasd00 3 days ago||
The Patriot Act was an eye opener to me. Fear has to be, by far, an authoritarian's best tool against the masses. I was shocked "we the people" let the Patriot Act happen, i was also shocked when people locked themselves up for a year voluntarily during covid. All you need is a way to produce fear in the population and they'll do and believe anything you say. Anything.
EasyMark 3 days ago||
"THere are criminals though!" and "think of the children" are what will bring in full authoritarianism. People are afraid of their own shadows these and want to live a 100% secure life at ANY cost.
MangoToupe 3 days ago||
...even if that cost is electing a pedophile.
abirch 3 days ago|||
A warrant against a criminal. This is the case that most people support.
cosmicgadget 3 days ago|||
Even if that tool queries everyone in the neighborhood?
buellerbueller 3 days ago|||
I do not support having my cell phone location data sucked up by the government in general while exercising my First Amendment right to protest. That this particular government is doing it is frankly, terrifying.
abirch 3 days ago||
I agree with you about cell phone data being sucked up when exercising your rights. I love the EFF: https://ssd.eff.org/module/attending-protest

This particular article was about using Stringray with a warrant. I'm sure that the government is abusing Stingray but it'd be nice to have evidence first.

coldtea 3 days ago|||
Warrants can also be malpractice when the law is in the hands of authoritative types.
account42 2 days ago||
Unlike when its people you agree with doing the same things?
boston_clone 3 days ago|||
Edited to redact; response was referencing a different article.
abirch 3 days ago|||
Are you quoting from the Forbes article listed above?

"In a recently-unsealed search warrant reviewed by Forbes, ICE used such a cell-site simulator in an attempt to track down an individual in Orem, Utah. The suspect had been ordered to leave the U.S. in 2023, but is believed to still be in the country. Investigators learned last month that before going to Utah, he’d escaped prison in Venezuela where he was serving a sentence for murder, according to the warrant. He’s also suspected of being linked to gang activity in the country, investigators said.

When the government got the target’s number, they first got a warrant to get its location. However, the trace wasn’t precise–it only told law enforcement that the target was somewhere in an area covering about 30 blocks. That led them to asking a court for a Stingray-type device to get an accurate location.

The warrant was issued at the end of last month and it’s not yet known if the fugitive was found."

boston_clone 3 days ago||
My mistake - wrong article !

https://san.com/cc/exclusive-evidence-of-cell-phone-surveill...

GuinansEyebrows 3 days ago|||
not sure if they just edited it very quickly or what, but that sentence no longer appears in the article.
exe34 3 days ago||
"Earlier this year, new media publication Straight Arrow News said it had analysed “mobile network anomalies” around a Washington state protest against ICE raids that were consistent with Stingray use."
allseeingimei 3 days ago||
Every bus stop and billboard with a CBS logo on it is doing the same thing and has been for a long time. They map your movements by presenting as a cell tower and record the IMEIs of passers by. Forbes won't write a story about that though.
afavour 3 days ago||
Any citation for that? You seem to have created your account specifically to comment here so I have to assume you're well informed on the topic.
NoiseBert69 3 days ago|||
That's not how cellular networks work.

Your IMEI will never be send in clear over the network. Not even back in old 2G networks.

If the gov needs your data they can use standardized lawful interception interfaces. This interface offers all juicy data - not only voice, SMS and your phone number.

octoberfranklin 3 days ago||
You're confusing IMEI and IMSI.
ProllyInfamous 1 day ago|||
Lots of retail does this with Bluetooth™ beacons (whether just at entry/exits, or at high-trafficked areas).

Which is another reason I simply just stopped carrying a cell phone a few years ago. Absolute freedom.

----

I paid my vehicle off early just so I could disable the infotainment's cell-link. My city has OCR cameras on every 4-lane highway (so I'm still tracked) but it sure is wild how important locations are these days.

EchoReflection 3 days ago|
"In a recently-unsealed search warrant reviewed by Forbes, ICE used such a cell-site simulator in an attempt to track down an individual in Orem, Utah. The suspect had been ordered to leave the U.S. in 2023, but is believed to still be in the country. Investigators learned last month that before going to Utah, he’d escaped prison in Venezuela where he was serving a sentence for murder, according to the warrant. He’s also suspected of being linked to gang activity in the country, investigators said."

slippery slope, I know...

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