Posted by tosh 3 days ago
vs. the current license:
"IF ANY LITIGATION IS INSTITUTED AGAINST SUPABASE, INC. BY A LICENSEE OF THIS SOFTWARE, THEN THE LICENSE GRANTED TO SAID LICENSEE SHALL TERMINATE AS OF THE DATE SUCH LITIGATION IS FILED."
imho: the current wording might discourage state organisations, since even a trivial lawsuit (e.g. a minor tax delay) could terminate the licence - perhaps a narrower patent-focused clause would work better (or an OSI-approved licence?).
I’ll revisit this with legal to try make it clearer.
Our intentions here are clear - if people have examples that we can follow we will do what we can to make this irrevocable (even to the extent of donating the patent if/when the community are ready to bear the cost of the maintainance)
https://github.com/orioledb/orioledb/pull/558
It is now Apache 2.0 which grants patent rights and can be re-licensed to PostgreSQL when the code is upstreamed. I'll amend the blog to make that clearer.
> "It is now Apache 2.0 which grants patent rights and can be re-licensed to PostgreSQL when the code is upstreamed."
It’s worth double-checking the relicensing angle. Imho: you can only relicense your own code. Any 3rd party contribution stays under apache 2.0 unless the author explicitly agrees.
So a full switch to postgresql license is only possible if every contributor signs off. That usually means having a Contributor License Agreement (CLA) in place up front.
And ethically, contributors should already know their work might be relicensed under "postgresql terms" later - otherwise it's a surprise change for the community.
ps: if the plan is serious, do the legal homework early and gather consents now, so upstreaming to postgresql doesn’t fail later because a few open-source contributors (who aren’t supabase/orioledb employees) are unreachable.)
imho: given that postgres has many corporate forks and contributors from different companies, mixing apache 2.0 and postgresql licenses isn’t ideal - it complicates the legal picture and can even block upstream acceptance.
And if supabase's goal is really this [1], then it makes sense to think through the legal side now and start consulting with the upstream Postgres community early.
[1] https://supabase.com/blog/orioledb-patent-free#aligned-with-...
"We believe the right long-term home for OrioleDB is inside Postgres itself. Our north star is to upstream what’s necessary so that OrioleDB can eventually be part of the Postgres source tree, developed and maintained in the open alongside the rest of Postgres."
As I see it, postgresql already includes a small amount of Apache 2.0 licensed code.
So it’s not as big an issue as I originally thought.
https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Apostgres%2Fpostgres%20apa...
example:
https://github.com/postgres/postgres/blob/88824e68611a88a4ef...
For other patent-shield licenses such a combination also removes most of the protections of the patent shield (a patent troll user can use the software under MIT and then sue for patent infrigement). However, the Apache 2.0 patent shield is comparatively weak (when compared to GPLv3 and MPLv2) because it only revokes the patent license rather than the entire license and so it actually acts like a permissive license even after you initiate patent litigation. This makes the above problem even worse -- if you don't actually have any patents in the software then a patent troll can contribute code under MIT then sue all of your users without losing access to the software even under just Apache 2.0 (I don't know if this has ever happened but it seems like a possibility).
IMHO, most people should really should just use MPLv2 if they want GPLv2 compatibility and patent grants. MPLv2 even includes a "you accept that your contributions to this project are under MPLv2" clause, avoiding the first problem entirely. It would be nice if there were an Apache 3.0 that had a stronger patent shield but still remained a permissive license (MPLv2 is a weak file-based copyleft), but I'm more of a copyleft guy so whatever.
Isn't the idea that you could then sue the suer for infringing your patent?
It also requires actively persuing a patent case which may result in the patent being rendered invalid, while a termination clause for the whole license just requires a far more clear-cut copyright infringement claim (possibly achievable purely through the DMCA system, out of court). But I'm not a lawyer, maybe counter-suits are more common in such situations and so either approach is just as good in practice.
https://engineering.fb.com/2017/09/22/web/relicensing-react-...
The license granted hereunder will terminate, automatically and without notice,
for anyone that makes any claim (including by filing any lawsuit, assertion or
other action) alleging (a) direct, indirect, or contributory infringement or
inducement to infringe any patent: (i) by Facebook or any of its subsidiaries or
affiliates, whether or not such claim is related to the Software, (ii) by any
party if such claim arises in whole or in part from any software, product or
service of Facebook or any of its subsidiaries or affiliates, whether or not
such claim is related to the Software, or (iii) by any party relating to the
Software; or (b) that any right in any patent claim of Facebook is invalid or
unenforceable.
However, MIT has _no_ patent protections and is strictly worse than almost any license with some patent protections for users included. The modern landscape of software patent trolls is far less insane than it was in the 90s but I would really think twice about using something that is likely patented under a license other than Apache-2.0, MPLv2, or GPLv3.
The relevant patent license is the following:
> 1.3. Defensive Termination. If any Licensee, its Affiliates, or its agents initiates patent litigation or files, maintains, or voluntarily participates in a lawsuit against another entity or any person asserting that any Implementation infringes Necessary Claims, any patent licenses granted under this License directly to the Licensee are immediately terminated as of the date of the initiation of action unless 1) that suit was in response to a corresponding suit regarding an Implementation first brought against an initiating entity, or 2) that suit was brought to enforce the terms of this License (including intervention in a third-party action by a Licensee).
For example, if Supabase failed to pay a vendor that happened to use OrioleDB they wouldn't be able to sue you for damages without compromising their stack. That's uncool.
My take-away from the Facebook/React license issue was that the community agrees this violates the spirit of FOSS and invalidates claiming to be open source (at least OSI-approved), with many taking offense to the punitive nature of the clause.
Granted Facebook was in a position to see litigation over a lot more reasons.
For practical adoption, especially in larger orgs, OSI-approved licences are much easier to get through legal review than custom ones.
We could also change to MIT/Apache but we feel PostgreSQL is more appropriate given our intentions to upstream the code
That's just not true. Your license[0] adds a clause to the Postgresql license[1]. This makes it a different license, which by extension also means it isn't OSI approved.
It's the same with the BSD licenses[2]: the 4-clause one is OSI-approved, whereas the 3-clause one is not. Turns out that one additional "all advertising must display the following acknowledgement" clause was rather important - and so is your lawsuit clause.
[0]: https://github.com/orioledb/orioledb?tab=License-1-ov-file
[1]: https://github.com/postgres/postgres?tab=License-1-ov-file
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_licenses#4-clause_license_...
https://github.com/orioledb/orioledb/pull/558
The code is now Apache 2.0 which grants patent rights and can be re-licensed to PostgreSQL when the code is upstreamed. I'll amend the blog to make that clearer
From the phrasing it already seemed your heart was in the right place, but I understand that it can get tricky once people get involved who aren't as familiar with the details of open source licensing.
Getting legal to sign off on a different license this quickly is impressive!
Anyway, I'm not sure this is true. Having a separate software license + secondary patent grant license is very very common in open source projects where patent trolls are common. See e.g. https://aomedia.org/about/legal/
I would just put them in separate files and then you're good to go.
But I am not sure if the first exemption is necessarily a good thing. The Apache License, Version 2.0 is broader in what may be grounds for patent licence termination. So it is a better deterrent against patent trolls (even if that means some legitimate patent claims are also discouraged).
But they have switched to Apache 2.0 now, so crisis averted.
Whoops, I did indeed type that a bit too quickly.
> Having a separate software license + secondary patent grant license is very very common
Perhaps, but those are separate. In this instance it was one and the same license, with any violation of the patent part terminating the whole license - including the non-patented software parts.
Additionally, the AOMedia patent license seems to be a bit different: the OrioleDB one said it would terminate when you sued Supabase (and to make it worse: sue them for any reason), but the AOMedia one says it'll terminate if you sue anyone over the licensed patents.
In other words: the OrioleDB one protected only Supabase, the AOMedia one protects the entire community. When it comes to being compatible with open source licenses, details like that become crucial.
I hope you can look at the Apache 2 patent grant as a better clause- or even adopt something like Google's Additional IP License found here- https://www.webmproject.org/license/additional/, which doesn't modify the open source license but instead adds an additional grant as a separate license.
Supabase is doing great work, thank you!
(if the atlasgo team are reading this feel free to reach out too)
https://opensource.org/license/ms-pl-html
Microsoft used it a ton, until they eventually just made everything open-source fall under the MIT license.
Some people will still be angry about it (I got a downvote for just mentioning it elsewhere on this thread) but as the person who built your software, you have every right to license your software as you deem necessary. There is a cost to what you've built and you have no true obligation to give everything for free.
On that note, as far as I can remember the MS-PL is OSI approved already.
"If You institute patent litigation against any entity (including a cross-claim or counterclaim in a lawsuit) alleging that the Work or a Contribution incorporated within the Work constitutes direct or contributory patent infringement, then any patent licenses granted to You under this License for that Work shall terminate as of the date such litigation is filed."
On violation the Apache 2.0 license terminates the patent license. I might be mistaken, but that reads an awful lot like you're still allowed to use the software provided you do so in a way which doesn't violate the patent.
On the other hand, the OrioleDB license seems to terminate the entire license - so the way I read this it would include parts of the software which aren't covered under the patent itself.
It starts off nice with the usual:
> PERMISSION TO USE, COPY, MODIFY, AND DISTRIBUTE THIS SOFTWARE AND ITS DOCUMENTATION FOR ANY PURPOSE, WITHOUT FEE, AND WITHOUT A WRITTEN AGREEMENT IS HEREBY GRANTED
.. but then there's the:
> HEREBY GRANTS A (..) LICENSE TO UNITED STATES PATENT NO. 10,325,030 TO MAKE, HAVE MADE, USE, HAVE USED, OFFER TO SELL, OFFERED TO SELL, SELL, SOLD, IMPORT INTO THE UNITED STATES, IMPORTED INTO THE UNITED STATES, AND OTHERWISE TRANSFER THIS SOFTWARE
.. which to me seems to be missing some kind of "modify" clause? Sure, it seems like you're allowing me to distribute it as-is the way a store like Amazon distributes boxes, but what happens when I start modifying the code and distributing those modifications? Is it still "this software", or has it become a derivative? Is the license I get to that patent even sublicensable? What happens to users of a fork when the forkee sues Supabase: do they also by extension lose their patent license?
The GPLv2, for example, has a clause stating that "Each time you redistribute the Program (or any work based on the Program), the recipient automatically receives a license from the original licensor" which makes it very clear what happens. If you're adding a poison pill to open-source code, you really shouldn't be this sloppy: it should be painfully obvious to every reader what the implications are, or nobody will ever risk using it.
GPLv3 has text about this in (s)11, MPLv2 has (s)2.3, and Apache-2.0 has s(3). GPLv2 doesn't have an explicit patent grant (and while some folks have argued that it has an implicit one that is just as good, I think the general consensus is that GPLv2 is not immune to patent trolls). All of them still allow you to make modifications but they do not guarantee that some other patents will not be infringed by your modifications and open you up to patent lawsuits (even from the same entity).
Assuming a lawyer wrote this, this is probably part of the reason for it. But it does feel a little sloppy, a separate patent license with clear terms would probably be more preferable.
Use as a shield would mean limiting it to patent litigation against a user of the software.
It also only covers litigation against Supabase - it does not provide a shield against litigation against OrioleDB users.
The MS-PL has the fairly standard reactive patent shield that only activates for patent-related litigation for the specific software under the license and is kind of similar to the language in Apache 2.0, MPLv2, and GPLv3.
But they have now switched to Apache 2.0, so crisis averted.
You might have good intentions, but in my value system if you invite others to also enjoy what you have stolen, you still are just a thief.
Polite reminder: Just because you managed to trick the US Patent Office into stamping your patent application does not mean you have invented something. It simply means you have managed to convince a bureaucrat to give you a stamp so you can claim ownership about other researchers' work.
Want to be part of the good guys? Burn the patent, and apologize to the research community you tried to steal from.
How'd you arrive at this conclusion? The stuff in the body of the patent can be expected to be 99.99% of widely known stuff, always.
What counts is that something new is disclosed, and that is what the claims cover.
A description of a patent must be enabling: it must tell someone ordinarily skilled in the art enough to reproduce the claimed invention. Gesticulating at "you could find a bunch of the simpler steps in earlier research papers" is not good enough.
How far attorneys go to make sure a patent description is wildly varying (I remember some of my earlier ones take some time to describe what a CPU and program are...) but it's best to error on the side of caution and describe well known techniques. Otherwise, you might spend time arguing in future litigation about whether the average software engineer in 2015 knew how to do a particular thing.
This is all positive. Super appreciate what you folks have done. It's clearly hard, well intentioned, and thoughtfully executed.
People might say that the company is doing it for good will, but that is the point, it is better to get the good will of the users by actually helping them instead of being like thousands of other companies which don't even do that. It is a nuanced topic but I feel like we should encourage companies which do good period. (like silksong / team cherry in gaming) etc.
I will look further into this now :p thanks!
that's ... that's what they are doing by making it freely available, no?
this helps anyone who is covered by the patent because they are (a bit better) protected from other patent trolls (and from other IP litigation)
The closest that comes to mind is "Free Nestlé bottled water".
for a parent granting irrevocable royalty-free usage rights to anyone is equivalent to putting it into the public domain, no?
both copyright and a patent grants exclusive rights to the rightsholder (right to perform, modify, or in case of patents to use the invention in the way covered by one of the claims), and the rightsholder is free to include more persons in the group of authorized users (ie. extend the rights to others, and can do so conditionally - hence the Apache2 patent grant)
can you please explain where my understanding is incorrect or missing something? thanks!
For example there a lot of ways to use the so-called priority of the US patent to file other patents, including elsewhere in the world.
US Americans sadly often forget that the majority of the planet is not the USA. Here in Thailand, US and EU pharma companies have managed to get patents on 15 year old basic stuff like anti-histaminic meds. "Oh, but the system of limited monopoly in the US worked for us?". Yeah. But in Europe, the cost per pill is somewhere around $0.08. In Europe it's about $0.02. In Thailand it's $0.80 because Zyrtec managed to file a patent here re-using the priority of the US patent. And wage-adjusted in Thailand the cost per pill is about $15 per pill. You better don't have an allergy over here. So: Patents can have long-term consequences.
Back to IT: Have a look at the whole patent troll industry. The biggest chunk of junk patents that they bought are coming from "we will not do any harm" owners/filers. A lot can happen in 20 years.
The intention of OrioleDB is not to compete with Postgres, but to make Postgres better. We believe the right long-term home for OrioleDB is inside Postgres itself. Our north star is to upstream what’s necessary so that OrioleDB can eventually be part of the Postgres source tree, developed and maintained in the open alongside the rest of Postgres.
"Our north star is to..."
:)
Call out shady shit when companies do shady things, but the sentiment behind this comment seems to be looking for reasons to bee outraged instead of at what's actually being done.
If companies get evicerated every time they try to engage with the community they'll stop engaging. We should be celebrating when they do something positive, even if there are a few critiques (e.g. the license change call out is a good one). Instead, half the comments seem like they're quick reactions meant to stoke outage.
Please have some perspective - this action is a win for the community.
I am "owner" of a bunch of patents, too, and some have actually been proven their test of time by after years having been re-invented (better: "parallel-invented later in time") elsewhere in the open source world.
But in my value system one does not do press releases saying "HELLO! We have decided not to do something evil!".
They could have done the very same thing done quietly to make clear there is no hidden agenda.
"Look, we hold this trivial patent on the open source ecosystem. No no no, all will be fine. No, no, we will not pick up the phone should Broadcom call us one day."
Yay. \o/
It seems that they have changed their mind to make it even more permissive.
They just relicensed the OrioleDB project under Apache 2.0 an hour ago [0], which contains a patent clause.
[0]: https://github.com/orioledb/orioledb/commit/44bab2aa9879feb7...
Our goal now is to ensure that it’s as F/OSS as possible given the pre-existing conditions
According to the docs, it “uses Postgres Table Access Method (TAM) to provide a pluggable storage engine for PostgreSQL. […] Pluggable Storage gives developers the ability to use different storage engines for different tables within the same database. Developers will be able to choose a storage method that is optimized for their specific needs: some tables could be configured for high transactional loads, others for analytics workloads, and still others for archiving.”
Just to add: if anyone wants to contribute (beyond code) benchmarking and stress-testing is very helpful for us
https://www.orioledb.com/docs#patch-set
The actual storage engine is written as an extension - these patches are mostly to improve the TAM API. If these are accepted by the community then it should be simpler for anyone to write their own Storage extensions.
I think (correctly) it will take a lot longer to upstream the extension - the PG community should take a “default no” attitude with big changes like this. Over time we will prove its worthiness (hopefully beyond just supabase - it would be good to collaborate with other Postgres providers)
Would be really nice with a pgdg package, as this is definitely the kind of thing I would want to test in a separate cluster :-)
And more generally, curious if you have any sense for what might make up the "1%" of workflows this wouldn't be advisable for? Any downsides to be aware of?
[0] https://github.com/orioledb/orioledb?tab=readme-ov-file#orio...
In term of other workloads it might not be great for, all my testing has shown a great improvement in every workload I have thrown at it.
We have seen this issue with YugabyteDB, and their integration off RocksDB as the storage engine for postgresql.
and many extensions (e.g. postgis) already work fine with OrioleDB storage.
IANAL nor a patent judge, but this is my understanding after watching the space for some years.
But at the same time, globalization means legal mandates are increasingly extra-territorial in scope and impact. U.S. patent law affects anyone whose products touch the American market.
Similarly, CCPA/CPRA and GDPR reach far beyond their nominal geographic borders.
When you're in IP, bang on IP
That's just the path for all who do this stuff. America seems culturally to like IP (everyone saying that copyright law is paramount and LLMs should be stopped, etc.) but that's just recent history.
Ahead in production. Did China research/innovate/develop those industries, or were they 'just' fast followers? (Early in its history the US used the same 'tactics' relative to the UK and other European countries.)