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Posted by maksimur 9/10/2025

We can’t circumvent the work needed to train our minds(zettelkasten.de)
385 points | 178 commentspage 2
bwfan123 9/10/2025|
Descartes' brief rules for the direction of the mind [1] is pertinent here, as it articulates beautifully what it means to do "thinking" and how that relates to "memory".

Concepts have to be "internalized" into intuition for much of our thinking, and if they are externalized, we become a meme-copy machine as opposed to a thinking machine.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_for_the_Direction_of_the...

tolerance 9/10/2025||
The author makes a lot of bold claims and I don’t take his main one serious re: remembering everything. I think he’s being intentionally hyperbolic. But the gist is sound to me, if you can put one together. He needs an editor.

> To find what you need online, you require a solid general education and, above all, prior knowledge in the area related to your search. > > [...] > > If you can’t produce a comprehensive answer with confidence and on the whim [...] you don’t have the sufficient background knowledge. > > [...] > > This drives us to one of the most important conclusions of the entire field of note-taking, knowledge work, critical thinking and alike: You, not AI, not your PKM or whatever need to build the knowledge because only then it is in your brain and you can go the next step. > > [...] > > The advertised benefits of all these tools come with a specific hidden cost: Your ability to think. [This passage actually appears ahead of the previous one–ed.]

This is best read alongside: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45154088

firefoxd 9/10/2025||
One thing that I like is that things are much easier in person. When someone shows me an AI overview they just googled on their phone, I can say "I don't think that's true." Then we can discuss. The more we talk about the subject, the more we develop our knowledge. It's not black and white.

But online? @grok is this true?

flerchin 9/10/2025||
Before the internet I siloed knowledge that I could lookup to books. Don't worry, the kids will be ok.
defanor 9/10/2025||
Indeed, I thought that "decades old" sounds like an underestimate there: Socrates is said to have criticized writing for letting people to not train their memory, so that would be millennia by now. Though of course it is possible that the article's author would not agree with that, and would have a beef with more easily searchable content only, like the people who criticized tables of contents. I do not mean that they were all wrong though: probably the degree to which knowledge is outsourced matters, maybe some transitions were more worthwhile than others, and possibly something was indeed lost with those.
Barrin92 9/11/2025||
>Socrates is said to have criticized writing for letting people to not train their memory

And he likely had a point. What I recently noticed is that my father, who had very little formal education but happened to have very old-school teachers who hammered him with memorizing a lot of poetry, which he continued in adult life, is more verbally fluent somehow than a lot of young kids who don't have command of grammar any more. ("would of")

Granted they likely don't write or read much either but directionally if you keep outsourcing mental work, you degrade. When I studied Japanese I liked the term a teacher had for his defense of memorizing Kanji by handwriting, which he called "neuro-muscular". Like playing scales on the guitar or piano there is something that keeps you snappy in memorization and rote practice that goes away if you only passively search.

mallowdram 9/11/2025||
"Neuro-muscular" great insight.
mallowdram 9/10/2025||
Sorry, kids lack the foundational ability to remember, reason, imagine because their phones cauterize their basic intelligence foundations in sharp wave ripples: navigation, adventurous short-cuts, vicarious trial and error, these are the basis for memory consolidation. And we build this developmentally until we are 16 or so. Once we offload this dev to phones, we are essentially unintelligent buffoon, lacking the basis for knowledge. The kids are DOA.
bccdee 9/10/2025||
No, you're just saying that. There's no evidence that using phones makes teenagers stupid.
mallowdram 9/10/2025|||
Anyone who understands the development of intelligence and creativity is directly linked to the allocortex's ability to navigate freely, use vicarious trial and error, to invent novel short-cuts, built from both egocentric (landmark memories) and allocentric (extra body mapping) up until around the age of 16 in order to develop the basics of memory consolidation can take anecdotal evidence of kids that can't take a walk without a cellphone's help and extrapolate that these kids lack critical thinking skills.

It's elementary deduction from basic learning practices we've known since O'Keefe in 1973.

bccdee 9/10/2025||
Given that the current generation of kids missed out on several crucial years of socializing due to Covid and were forced to find community online, I'm skeptical of arguments that point to poorly-socialized kids and say, "it must be the phones." Even if this was based on real data and not a hodgepodge of anecdotes, the phones themselves would not be my #1 suspect.

> allocortex's ability to navigate freely

If your allocortex is navigating freely, something has gone badly wrong. Put it back under the neocortex where it belongs and seek immediate help from a neurologist.

mallowdram 9/10/2025||
Sorry, that's a narrative argument, lack of covid socializing, the sciences tell us otherwise. Phones correlate to cog decline.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-36256-4

bccdee 9/11/2025||
> Phones correlate to cog decline.

Do they? Let's check your source.

> To investigate this hypothesis, participants aged 20–34 perform a concentration and attention test in the presence and absence of a smartphone. The results of the conducted experiment imply that the mere presence of a smartphone results in lower cognitive performance, which supports the hypothesis of the smartphone presence using limited cognitive resources.

So, no. The presence of your smartphone on the desk in front of you is distracting, but that distraction goes away if you remove the smartphone. That's not "cognitive decline."

> Sorry, that's a narrative argument

No, that's me pointing out a competing plausible hypothesis. I'm not saying Covid is necessarily responsible for your anecdotal incidents; I'm saying that until you can prove Covid wasn't responsible, you have no standing to state conclusively that phones were.

mallowdram 9/11/2025||
We're in an attentional crises that isn't because kids didn't go to school for two years.

It's destroying their ability to experience reality as paths, free navigation, vicarious trial and error, all of this is fundamental to memory consolidation: the brain's fundamental unit: action-syntax in memory, is built from non-screen topological integrations of landmark and allocentric experiences. Phones destroy this.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6059409/

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-20922-0

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/brb3.70656

https://www.mdpi.com/2254-9625/15/6/98

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40255102/

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00246-025-03862-0

https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9067/12/4/503

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40172268/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40173157/

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41390-025-04024-x

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00223...

“A growing body of evidence has found that children’s brains can structurally and functionally change due to prolonged media multitasking, such as diminished gray matter in the prefrontal cortex, where attentional control and complex decision making abilities reside, among other really important skills, like the development of empathy and understanding nonverbal social communication,”

bccdee 9/11/2025||
Your first study says smartphone use is associated with conduct problems and hyperactivity in 6-year-olds; no teens or stupidity in sight.

Other studies discuss distraction, cyberbullying, bad diet/poor exercise, toddlers' sensory processing abilities, anxiety, and lost sleep. None of this covers stupidity, and much of it is not about teens.

The most interesting study you cited finds structural brain differences in preschool-aged children who spent more time on screens. It's still a stretch to make claims about the intelligence of teenagers based on the fact that babies who spend too much time on screens are, at age 3, less developed.

There's also a magnitude problem. Even if we assume smartphones do have some cognitive effect on teens, how can we know it's the only or largest one? You can't attribute anecdotes about kids being dumb to the presence of smartphones.

mallowdram 9/11/2025||
The loss of attention, the erosion of reading and math skills as of 2025 are quantified, not anecdotal.

You keep ignoring: the basic science of creativity, imagination, learning all stem from free navigation and vicarious, trail and error path integration. It is deductive that devices that impair this impair learning. Learning is based on free exploration of space. Mammalian intelligence is way-finding that stitches together landmark and non-landmark space.

The idea you can't see a relationship between pre-school, three year-old impairment, short-form cyberbullying (in teens) and teen loss of learning, retention, attention-span, creativity, suggests you are the subject group. If you can't reason correlationally, than science is beyond your grasp. Your statements are only narrative and narrow, you pretend to grasp ideas and information, then make arbitrary statements.

That was the tip of the iceberg, that list.

Phones damage children's lives in multi-dinemsisons of emotional, memory, learning capability. You may be the study group's ideal subject. Face that possibility.

bccdee 9/11/2025||
Education has been under the axe for years. Declining test scores are more likely to be the product of No Child Left Behind than the iPhone.

> You keep ignoring: the basic science of creativity

"Basic science" is something of an oxymoron here. Measuring creativity is anything but basic. You're appealing to intuition—an intuition I share to some extent, but not one that we can call scientific

> The idea you can't see a relationship between three year-old impairment and teen loss of learning

I can see how there might be a relationship. There also might not be: Some kids are late bloomers, and the children in this study hadn't even gone to preschool yet.

Where's the meta-analysis finding a causal link between smartphone use and impaired cognition in teens? If you want to talk about science, you can't extrapolate things like this based on how you figure they're probably working. Science is empirical.

> Your statements are only narrative and narrow, you pretend to grasp ideas and information

You're getting awfully aggressive¹ about this. Have you considered putting your phone down?

[1]: https://www.mdpi.com/2254-9625/15/6/98

mallowdram 9/11/2025||
Science isn't simply empirical. There are five other stages to theoretic knowledge and your reasoning suggests you don't know how to discuss ideas scientifically. You exclude statements to make claims. I said, attention erosion AND test score decline. You chose to make a narrative claim using No Child Left Behind, and picking one of the conditions. Yes there is a basic science of creativity (there is also a complex), we have indexes of creative erosion in the mid-20s.

When you can revisit these ideas with a scientific manner, then I can respond. Until then you are just spinning narratives.

bccdee 9/11/2025||
> When you can revisit these ideas with a scientific manner, then I can respond.

Ironic that you would level a criticism like this while touting "non-empirical science," whatever that is.

> You chose to make a narrative claim using No Child Left Behind

Do me the courtesy of paraphrasing my claims accurately. I said the drop in test scores you're attributing to phones could more plausibly be caused by NCLB, which is a carefully couched statement that doesn't actually draw any concrete conclusions.

I'm gesturing broadly at the absence of conclusive evidence, and you're telling me you don't need conclusive evidence to make definitive statements. I'm hardly the one spinning narratives here.

mallowdram 9/11/2025||
There are few conclusions in science, you should know that, there's merely a next theoretic stage. We don't know the origins of the AIDS virus or SARS-CoV-2. It took 30 years to prove cigarettes definitively caused cancer after the first Doll & Hill 1956 study, but we could see the connections. Same here, we can see the connections beginning in 2017, and now we have over 200 studies that suggest and prove in parts and piecemeal like the Doll & Hill study that phones are bad for kids.

Gesturing broadly at a lack of conclusive evidence is simply naysaying the connections that educators, child development experts, neuroscience researchers are detailing. If you can't counter their connections and simply sit on the ledge of denial, you ain't thinking, you're in denial.

Stay in storytelling.

steezeburger 9/10/2025|||
There is no evidence that using phones makes teenagers stupid? I see several studies. I feel like you're the one just saying things.
bccdee 9/10/2025||
Which studies? Could you attach them?
low_tech_punk 9/10/2025||
This piece reminds me of another article musing on the necessity of manual memory: https://numinous.productions/ttft/#how-important-is-memory.

That article articulated the reason slightly differently, arguing you need to hold multiple concepts in your head at the same time in order to develop original ideas.

Still, I'm not sure you have to remember everything, but I agree you have to remember the foundational things at the right abstraction layer, upon which you are trying to synthesize something new.

dghlsakjg 9/10/2025||
The irony here is using fitness as an example of knowable things.

Fitness guidelines is very much not a settled science, and is highly variable per individual beyond the very basics (to lose weight eat fewer calories than you burn, to build muscle you should lift heavy things).

For every study saying that 8-12 reps x3 is the optimal muscle growth strategy there is another saying that 20x2 is better, and a third saying that 5x5 is better. If you want to know how much protein you should eat to gain muscle mass, good luck; most studies have settled on 1.6g/kg per day as the maximum amount that will have an effect, but you can find many reputable fitness sources suggesting double that.

You can memorize "facts", but they will change as the state of the art changes... or is Pluto still a planet?

The ability to parse information and sources, as well as knowing the limits of your knowledge is far more important than memorizing things.

procaryote 9/10/2025|
They're very knowable, it's just that there's a lot more money in making things up
bluGill 9/10/2025||
They are not very knowable. It is expensive to design a study that would work. All too often a real world attempt to figure this out conclude "despite our best efforts we couldn't get people to behave in the needed way". So we have proxy studies that we hope mean something, but might not. Mixed in are lots of people making data fit their conclusion, and then selling it as fact.

Few people have the time to figure things out and so it isn't knowable even though all the steps are easy to lay out.

procaryote 9/11/2025||
There are lots and lots of studies and metastudies etc. We know lots about nutrition and sports performance, and learn more and more

But we produce a lot more made up stuff to generate views and sell products

dghlsakjg 9/12/2025||
You are also making the assumption that studies and metastudies are not trying to sell you something or that the authors aren't trying to prove something that the science doesn't support.
procaryote 9/12/2025||
I don't think every study is completely corrupt. I wouldn't call it an assumption as much as an assessment that a lot of studies seem to agree with reality pretty well.

Pragmatically I suspect this might be because most of the market don't actually read these things, and are just as happy with made up bs.

BinaryIgor 9/10/2025||
A bit too extreme, but there definitely is something to it; trivially, you need to challenge your mind all the time and at regularly work at the edge of your current abilities to progress further. I like this part a lot:

"In knowledge work the bottleneck is not the external availability of information. It is the internal bandwidth of processing power which is determined by your innate abilities and the training status of your mind."

_bramses 9/10/2025||
A lot of good ideas in this comment section.

I’ll say this: between store, search, synthesize and share, store and synthesize are consistently the most difficult to nail down.

A society that wishes to succeed in creating an activated and knowledgeable populous should be interested in how to train people to notice better, and to create insightful follows.

In the words of David Deutsch (paraphrasing): knowledge consists of conjecture and error correction

mock-possum 9/10/2025||
> Looks good alright? Or does it? How do you know? You can’t if you don’t have sufficient background knowledge … If you can’t produce a comprehensive answer with confidence and on the whim the second you read the question, you don’t have the sufficient background knowledge.

> “I just ask ChatGPT for that, too!”, the AI generation might ask. Ok, and then what? How can you assess the answers … you are taking on an impossible task, because you can’t use enough of your brain for your cognitive operations.

So it’s Zeno’s paradox of knowing stuff?

It can’t be impossible to know things, you’ve just got to decide when you know enough to get going on. Otherwise you’re mired in analysis paralysis and you never get anything done.

I do agree that deep knowledge of the foundations a subject - particularly a skilled practice or craft - is a path to proficiency and certainly a requirement for mastery. But there are plenty of times when you can get away with ‘just reading the documentation’ and doing as instructed.

You do not first need to invent the universe in order to begin exercising, you can just start talking a 20 minute walk after lunch.

js8 9/10/2025|
While I agree with the gist of the article, I think the AI example is poor, because we know AI can make stuff up and it's a problem. So this failure of AI to be reasonably correct weakens the argument. In the old days, you would rely on an expert (through say a book, like encyclopedia) to tell you this. The issue then becomes who you trust.

I would say your own knowledge is like a memory cache. If you know stuff, then the relevant work becomes order of magnitudes faster. But you can always do some research and get other stuff in the cache.

(Human mind is actually more than a cache because you also create mental models, which typically stay with you. So it's easier to pickup details after they get evicted, because the mental model is kept. I think the goal of memorising stuff in school should be exactly that - forget all the details, but in the learning process build a good mental model that you have for life.)

blankx32 9/11/2025||
Amazed I had to scroll this far to find a comment on trust. It’s an important facet I urge is not taken lightly.
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