Posted by mgh2 9/11/2025
(Amazingly, "small" is roughly the size of the Nexus S... which I found to be the ideal phone size for my large hands.)
e-waste? Their latest phone is running the very same version as the four-year-old Pixel 5a; Android 14.
Incidentally... not only does my Pixel 5a still runs software distributed through the Play Store just fine, its battery life is still quite acceptable.
You don't even get that with most Pixel phones. Through to the Pixel 5 family, you only get three years of updates, period. Through to the Pixel 7 family, you get an additional two of security updates. It's not until the Pixel 8 family that you're getting what you demand.
That's a lot of "e-waste" that Google only recently stopped generating. ;)
But, honestly? I'm not sure why you consider the current five-years-of-updates policy to not be creating an unacceptable amount of e-waste. I have (and still use) nearly-twenty-year-old laptops with the latest Linux kernel and desktop environment software (& etc) versions available. They work just fine. The only maintenance required has been battery replacement and occasional thermal paste replacement. [0]
Only five years of updates? That's an absolutely absurd policy.
[0] Though, it's not clear that the thermal paste actually needed to be replaced... it was just fun to break out the screwdrivers and service manual.
Yep, agreed. While my "e-waste" epithet was deliberately inflammatory, I really do have a problem with what they and others were doing before. Thankfully, with newer Pixels (and Galaxies, iirc), that's getting better on the Android side.
> I'm not sure why you consider the current five-years-of-updates policy to not be creating an unacceptable amount of e-waste. I have (and still use) nearly-twenty-year-old laptops with the latest Linux kernel and desktop environment software (& etc) versions available.
You're getting sidetracked from my original point (that Unihertz's practically nonexistent support disqualifies it for me), but I would certainly like to have higher standards! Core smartphone hardware has matured to the point where I would like to see 10+ year lifetimes.
However, you're making a false equivalence here; a smartphone is at the mercy of the vendor to provide updates, while a laptop (thanks to commoditized hardware and a lot of work in the Linux kernel) has a more stable base to work from. Again, if we could reach that place for smartphones, I would be into it. But until we're at the point where you can viably buy a 10+ year-old phone and install a supported operating system (where "supported" includes critical firmware updates), this is a bad comparison.
You are aware that a lot of Android's security-relevant stuff is provided in one or more "apps" [0] that get regularly updated? IIRC, way back in the day Google used to ship all of the system software in one immutable blob that relied on OTA updates. However, Google found that telcos would often take way too long to approve handset updates... so Google split most of the security-relevant code out into something whose update system they fully controlled.
1) Do you know how much security-relevant stuff is contained in the base OS vs those "apps"?
2) Were you aware that Android 14 is still a supported version of Android?
3) Were you aware that Android 13 is also still supported?
4) Did you know that those split out "apps" that I was talking about support all the way back to Android 6?
> However, you're making a false equivalence here...
Nope. You're thinking much too narrowly.
> ...a smartphone is at the mercy of the vendor to provide updates, while a laptop (thanks to commoditized hardware and a lot of work in the Linux kernel) has a more stable base to work from.
You can select laptops that have components that don't work with Linux, or only work with particular kernel versions. That "lot" of work in the Linux kernel that you refer to? A fair chunk of it is "just" working with the various device manufacturers to open source and mainline their drivers.
If Google gave a shit about e-waste, they would have at minimum gotten the relevant phone manufacturers to give Google a source code license to the drivers & etc for the relevant phones and permission to adapt that software to newer kernels and ship compiled binaries in AOSP and Google Android.
But, they didn't do that. So, they clearly don't care.
> Core smartphone hardware has matured to the point where I would like to see 10+ year lifetimes.
We could have seen 10+ year software-support-lifetimes from the phones that shipped with the first commercially-released version of Android. Go take a gander at the huge array of weird-ass one-off device drivers in Linux mainline. "Phone hardware was too immature for it to be adapted to later kernel versions" is a bogus statement.
[0] ...whose name I can no longer remember...
Yes, I am aware.
> 1) Do you know how much security-relevant stuff is contained in the base OS vs those "apps"?
No, I'm not very knowledgeable about where the lines get drawn, especially for non-Play-related components. It is a relevant point to make though, and is definitely crucial to this topic. However, from what I can infer (e.g. from blogs and mastodon threads by the GrapheneOS folks), there is plenty of security-relevant OS-level stuff that needs patching over the lifecycle of a device. And firmware-level stuff is almost equally as important. Both these OS-level and firmware-level things are out of scope for these apps that Google pushes.
> 2) Were you aware that Android 14 is still a supported version of Android?
> 3) Were you aware that Android 13 is also still supported?
> 4) Did you know that those split out "apps" that I was talking about support all the way back to Android 6?
Yes. I couldn't have told you that it was Android 6 off the top of my head, but that timeline sounds about right.
> You can select laptops that have components that don't work with Linux, or only work with particular kernel versions. That "lot" of work in the Linux kernel that you refer to? A fair chunk of it is "just" working with the various device manufacturers to open source and mainline their drivers.
That is a good chunk of what I'm referring to, yes. Also in-scope is working with manufactures (of both the device and its components) to provide firmware updates e.g. via fwupd. Afaiu, the baseband for mobile handsets is especially important because it's a highly-privileged component that is
> If Google gave a shit about e-waste, they would have at minimum gotten the relevant phone manufacturers to give Google a source code license to the drivers & etc for the relevant phones and permission to adapt that software to newer kernels and ship compiled binaries in AOSP and Google Android.
> But, they didn't do that. So, they clearly don't care.
I more or less agree with you. But my point isn't that Google cares about e-waste. Rather, my point is that devices with longer lifecycles (e.g. Pixels) are superior to devices with short lifecycles (e.g. Unihertz devices). Which is a pity, because I love so much about the Unihertz design. Almost perfect for me.
> We could have seen 10+ year software-support-lifetimes from the phones that shipped with the first commercially-released version of Android. Go take a gander at the huge array of weird-ass one-off device drivers in Linux mainline. "Phone hardware was too immature for it to be adapted to later kernel versions" is a bogus statement.
I think you've picked out some very specific parts of my response and fixated on those. What I'm saying is that you cannot, in fact, pick up a 10 year-old handset and use it with up-to-date software and firmware[0]. My requirement/desire (which others may not share) is that I should be able to buy a new handset and use it for a bare minimum of 5+ years. As far as I can see, Unihertz's devices do not meet even that pitifully low bar.
[0] Tbh, firmware update support varies greatly for laptop and desktop hardware too. I'm no expert, but seems like lots of room for improvement there.
If you mean "fold", then probably only while closed, subject to the same hand-size limits. While open, with the screen opened to the left, like a book, they're quite a bit wider than even the largest human hand could reasonably type on.
The Z Fold 4 feels like two flagships stacked in your pocket. The Fold 7 is lighter than an iPhone Pro max and only a vinyl sticker thicker. It feels identical to a flagship in your pocket but it's got an 8" screen. Not innovative? Where's Apple's innovation toward an 8" smartphone?
I didn't really get much value out of the touchbar (never really used any per-app touchbar functionality), but it was mostly fine -- I adjusted to the touchbar escape key pretty quickly.
Is it such a bad idea? I use a convertible Thinkpad to take handwritten notes as well as usual laptop duties. Perhaps it just doesn't fit your usecase, it seems that plenty of these laptops are still being made today.
Granted, my previous Gen 1 Thinkpad had constant motherboard and memory issues - not sure if design flaw, lemon, or otherwise. To their credit, Lenovo warranty repaired it and eventually gave an upgrade (my current device) for no charge.
They will not get fines and lawsuits if they make a foldable phone with a display that degrades over time.
I do think a move like this will hurt their reputation for making durable devices. They are a victim of their own success a little here.
I didn’t say this. I would merely accept other companies being held to the same standard.
> They will not get fines and lawsuits if they make a foldable phone with a display that degrades over time.
This will 100% happen. When it does I will come back and post here.
Am I missing some other blunder?
Butterfly: https://www.keyboardsettlement.com/
Batterygate: multiple countries. Here’s Canada: https://www.reuters.com/technology/apple-pay-c144-mln-settle... US: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/18/apple-f...
Nothing for bendgate
Yes, a lot of the time they settle, so no admission of guilt but it still costs them money.
They got lawsuits because of batteries that degraded over time.
These batteries were not fit for purpose. The phone design was defective. It literally could not manage after normal and expected degradation.
Imagine if, after Microsoft failed to build the Xbox 360 correctly, they just silently throttled all the machines to reduce the chance they would fail, rather than what they had to do, which was replace all the defective machines, 25% of the fleet, on their own dime.
In most countries that aren't the USA, consumers have a right to expect their products to work for some time and be fit for purpose. Apple blatantly violated that right, and used a quiet software update to hide that.
Apple loves to just deny and ignore their design failures. It used to be the norm for Macbooks to just cook their GPU to death, and apple would always refuse to acknowledge such things until they settled the lawsuit and quietly put up some sort of "we will fix this at your expense" program.
As for other manufacturers not being held liable, Galaxy Note 7 had plenty of related lawsuits and customer action holding them accountable amongst many other cases of the same.
Apple is just a company like any other.
Mindset as in levels... I used to be afraid of my $30K student debt while I was in school thinking getting an engineering job that pays $60K would be great but now I make more than that and my debt is also beyond $30K so yeah levels.
like... it's completely okay to not want something expensive not because you're poor but because you just don't want to spend money on it; your preferences for what's worth money to you don't have to be justified to anyone else. Except for maybe your family.
Personally I don't have any desire to buy any of those expensive things at all, because I don't even notice their existence, but that's just me. Seems better to be minimalistic. Similarly, to not have any debt, because why would you want to be more stressed and tied to a job than the minimum possible? But maybe it's different if your friends / social circle cares about shiny things or something.
The car thing I like driving fast/sporty cars, cheapest one for performance would be an older Corvette but yeah (not saying Lambo is performance, that one it's the looks, Exige though is both though different eg. acceleration/curve handling vs. top speed).
I'm just saying, there was a guy I was talking to who owned a Lambo and he's like "if it went up in flames I'd be fine", it's like I have to get to that headspace or maybe I'm not built that way not sure
But yeah I do go back and forward between wanting things/feeling guilty for being better off than others
Not that I don't fall in the same trap, but, y'know, it's an aspiration.
and personally I'd judge the hell out of someone who owned a lambo and didn't care about it going up in flames. We get it, they want people to think they're so rich that they don't care about their own possessions. All I hear is a person try to say certain things in order to make you find them impressive.
i think with agentic coding now my ideal setup would be to be able to walk away and remote in from my heavy desktop/laptop w/ just my phone and check in on stuff and do some light work, etc.
obviously i would still have my laptop but i wouldn't have to lug it around everywhere.
I considered buying a keyboard for this case. I then decided against it. Probably carrying a MacBook Air makes more sense if I want to get work done on the go.
That said, I'm happy with my new Pixel 9 PF. It's better than the iPhone 16 Pro Max.
I also own various Apple devices, but I can't say there's any ecosystem integration I particularly miss.
Instead of iCloud I just use Google Drive now. I can still do facetime calls on my Mac. Also I continue to use the Home app on the iPhone.