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Posted by rbanffy 2 days ago

An engineering history of the Manhattan Project(www.construction-physics.com)
156 points | 68 comments
mclau157 2 days ago|
Before there was any bomb there was the Chicago Pile-1 in the middle of Chicago in a space under the stands at Stagg Field originally built as a rackets court

A wooden frame supported an elliptical-shaped structure, 20 feet high, 6 feet wide at the ends and 25 feet across the middle. It contained 6 short tons of uranium metal, 50 short tons of uranium oxide and 400 short tons of graphite, at an estimated cost of $2.7 million. According to Robert Crease, CP-1 and preceding piles were "the largest unbonded masonry structures since the pyramids.

On December 2, 1942, Fermi announced that the pile had gone critical at 15:25. Fermi switched the scale on the recorder to accommodate the rapidly increasing electric current from the boron trifluoride detector. He wanted to test the control circuits, but after 28 minutes, the alarm bells went off to notify everyone that the neutron flux had passed the preset safety level, and he ordered Zinn to release the zip. The reaction rapidly halted. The pile had run for about 4.5 minutes at about 0.5 watts. Wigner opened a bottle of Chianti, which they drank from paper cups.

sherr 1 day ago||
The Rhodes book is great on this. Fermi was such a good physicist and a great hands-on engineer. Before electronic calculators or computers: a slide-rule, graphing paper and a notebook. A lot of danger getting the maths wrong! Luckily, Fermi was very good at maths.
ggm 1 day ago||
The article quotes extensively from Rhodes, and Groves.
jgalt212 18 hours ago||
Groves was an administrative genius, probably second only to Eisenhower.
toxic72 2 days ago|||
I have in my possession a chunk of one of those graphite bricks. Very neat piece of history.
germinalphrase 1 day ago||
How did you come by it?
rbanffy 1 day ago|||
> but after 28 minutes, the alarm bells went off to notify everyone that the neutron flux had passed the preset safety level

Really feels like catching the dragon by its tail.

HPsquared 1 day ago||
Imagine the fallout (literally and figuratively) if they'd gotten the calculations wrong.
HPsquared 2 days ago|||
Was there ever a radiation hazard from that or a big cleanup? Seems very "early days safety standards".
pfdietz 1 day ago||
That reactor was run at a very low power level, so there was little activity. It was dismantled in 1943 and the parts moved to make CP-2 near Chicago at a site that later became Argonne National Laboratory. CP-2 had shielding (but no cooling) and operated at a few kilowatts.
euroderf 1 day ago||
> Before there was any bomb there was the Chicago Pile-1 in the middle of Chicago in a space under the stands at Stagg Field originally built as a rackets court

Groves's book ("Now It Can Be Told") mentions the people that worked with the graphite bricks, that it got into their skin, and even after an after-work shower, they'd still ooze graphite for hours.

Firstly I wonder what their cover story for their spouses was.

Secondly it's clear that they should've had an on-site sauna. Get some deep cleaning going. That would've flushed the graphite gunk out of their hides.

cyberax 1 day ago||
When the USSR was building the bomb, the director of the graphite manufacturing company unofficially asked Kurchatov (the lead scientist of the Soviet nuclear project) to bring him a handful of diamonds.

He assumed that graphite of such high purity can be useful only for this purpose during the wartime.

cactusfrog 2 days ago||
One of the best books I’ve ever read is The Making of the Atomic Bomb Book by Richard Rhodes. If you want an extremely in-depth history of the science and people behind Manhattan project, I would highly recommend reading it.
bruckie 2 days ago||
Seconded. I tell people it's several books in one, all of which are brilliantly executed:

- Biographies of the preeminent scientists of the 20th century

- A history of late 19th and early 20th century physics and chemistry. Much more technical than many history books, which is a drawback for some audiences, but probably an attraction for a lot of people here.

- A history of World War I and World War II

- A history of the engineering and operation of the Manhattan Project

Highly, highly recommended for this audience.

One caveat: I tried the audiobook and couldn't stand the narrator. Your mileage may vary, but I recommend reading it.

adastra22 2 days ago|||
Don’t forget the very last chapter: a gruesome moment by moment portrayal of the effects of the atomic bomb on the people of Hiroshima.
pests 1 day ago|||
> Biographies of the preeminent scientists of the 20th century

This was the only parts of the book I skimmed over / skipped. While interesting, many of them go back to their parents and childhood upbringing which, again are interesting, but being more interested in the science/engineering I would skip ahead until their story was more relevant.

GJim 1 day ago|||
> The Making of the Atomic Bomb Book by Richard Rhodes

A good book.

May I also recommend the In Our Time episode on the Manhattan Project.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00108h1

(The Richard Rhodes book is on the recommended reading list for this episode, listed on the linked website; as are other very good books on the Manhattan Project worth a read).

wanderingmoose 2 days ago|||
If you want a book that is more technical and really gives a sense of what the scope of the project was, I'd highly recommend The Los Alamos Primer by Serber which was the intro lecture given to scientists when they would arrive. Serber did a great job of annotating the lecture to explain in more accessible detail each section. A quick read, and well worth it.
ylee 1 day ago|||
I read and enjoyed The Making of the Atomic Bomb and Dark Sun, but another book by Rhodes made me question his veracity. <https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/4413437417>
foo70 2 days ago|||
100% agree. Also, if you liked that, try his follow on, "Dark Sun", focusing on the fusion bomb development after the war. There is probably a much greater focus on politics, especially involving Teller.
sklargh 2 days ago|||
Dark Sun is not bad, but it is definitely overshadowed by Rhodes' magnum opus.

I recommend Igniting the Light Elements for people who want a keystone piece about the early thermonuclear. https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/10596 - it's an extensive Thesis on the history of early thermonuclear period. Also one of the last comprehensive looks before classification fully obscures the plurality of the programs.

dboreham 2 days ago||
Thanks for posting that reference. I came to do the same after finding that thesis while searching for another book I remember reading. The book covered Wheeler's (I think it was Wheeler) work simulating the first thermonuclear device on borrowed IBM calculating machines in the basement of some place in NYC (I think it was a commercial organization), basically beginning the HPC industry. Anyway, the Fitzpatrick thesis begins asking why it took so long for thermonuclear devices to be developed. I haven't yet had time to read to the conclusion, but presumably "not fast enough computers" is the answer.

Update, I tracked down the book. The guy was Ford, who worked for Wheeler: https://pubs.aip.org/physicstoday/article/68/7/46/415213/Bui...

next_xibalba 2 days ago||||
The first half of this book is kind of a slog, focusing on the minutiae of the Soviet's espionage effort. Which, to be fair, was the basis for the Soviet's rapid development of fission and fusion weapons. I just wasn't expecting a (rather boring) spy book. The 2nd half is much more interesting as they get into the truly genius science and engineering of the hydrogen bomb. And boy, Teller really does come off as a complete jerk who wasted a lot of time on his preferred Super design.
ricksunny 1 day ago||
Soviets also benefited a lot from German scientists pulled from post-WW2 Germany in their own version of a Paperclip-like program. Recommended reading: Forgotten Creators by Todd Rider. Free and online, over 4,000 pages including references and important appendices, so one has to navigate to the chapter / section of interest.

https://riderinstitute.org/revolutionary-innovation/

pfdietz 1 day ago||
This is the same Todd Rider whose PhD work at MIT (advised by the late Lawrence Lidsky) showed aneutronic fusion was unlikely to be workable. Lidsky had previously argued DT fusion wasn't going to cut it because of inherently low volumetric power density and had argued aneutronic fusion should be pursued. Between those two approaches lies lower neutronicity D-3He fusion, which may be fusion's only real hope. Helion has the lead in pursuing this approach, with a design focusing on highly efficient energy recirculation that feels informed by Rider's analysis.
ricksunny 1 day ago||
His analysis of German fusion advances during WW2 is very much present in his work.
LABerthier 2 days ago|||
He was definitely trying to impart more of a lesson with Dark Sun
sbmthakur 1 day ago||
Learned about that book from HN, so thanks HN. Of late, I've been reading The Alchemy of Air which revolves around Haber-Bosch process and it's been a delight so far. Highly recommend if you love a mix of non-fiction, history & science.
joz1-k 1 day ago||
From the article: The alpha and beta calutron buildings eventually occupied an area greater than 20 football fields, and the entire electromagnetic separation facility grew to 268 buildings, requiring 20,000 workers to build.

This was an enormous undertaking in a relatively short amount of time, even during wartime. I can hardly fathom the scale and urgency of these operations. I suppose the Russians invested similarly massive resources to build their own A-bomb after the war.

Interestingly, it was believed at the time that German scientists were also very close to producing a nuclear weapon. As was later discovered after the war, they were not.

ricksunny 1 day ago||
> it was believed at the time that German scientists were also very close to producing a nuclear weapon.

Yes this was the prime motivator, at least on paper. One can suspect Vannevar Bush or Leslie Groves of ulterior motives (Vannevar: fomenting a defense-fueled ‘Big Science’ infrastructure which he certainly achieved going into the postwar, Groves: creating a weapon to fend off the Soviets for the postwar).

> As was later discovered after the war, there were not.

Man this is a dicy one. There has been some scholarship in recent decades that the Germans may have got a lot farther than history has hitherto accepted to date, all the way up to minor (semi-fizzled?) detonations. Rainer Karlsch has been the main accumulator of relevant archives especially from the Soviet side. Todd Rider formerly of MIT’s Lincoln Lab has done yeoman’s work in piecing together the logic of Karlsch’a work and archive digging of his own & volunteers’. In short, we are not sitting on a consensus reality of just how far the Germans got in developing an atomic bomb, and we aren’t 100% certain on how little we relied on recuped German know-how in developing our own atomic bomb between May-August 1945, not how much we (ahem, Teller) may have relied in part on German know-how in developing the H-bomb. As I mentioned in another comment, the reference for this is

https://riderinstitute.org/revolutionary-innovation/#chapter...

Appendix D is the main one for this topic, and Chapter 8 for context.

philipkglass 1 day ago||
The Soviet and other later nuclear weapons programs were significantly less expensive/complicated to reach equivalent capabilities, because they didn't pursue several paths simultaneously like the Manhattan Project did. They also weren't so rushed.

For example, the USSR built plutonium production facilities and tested a working plutonium-based implosion bomb before they produced highly enriched uranium. The Soviet uranium enrichment program was also simplified compared to the US: they built out the most effective technology that the American program demonstrated (gaseous diffusion). They developed the marginally effective calutron enrichment process only to a trial scale and ignored the practically useless liquid thermal diffusion enrichment process.

thenthenthen 1 day ago|||
China choose two paths as well[0], and while at it building the largest man made tunnel complex in the world[1].

[0] https://nsri.nebraska.edu/-/media/projects/nsri/docs/academi... [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/816_Nuclear_Military_Plant

aerostable_slug 1 day ago||||
True, but I would note the Soviets chose to do things like put nuclear reactors and Pu production complexes underground to protect them from American air strikes. The sheer scale of their efforts and the added requirements for things like undergrounding entire plants certainly pushed their spending sky-high.
philipkglass 1 day ago||
Yes, both countries' nuclear weapons programs were extraordinarily expensive over time. The first underground reactor of the Mining and Chemical Combine was built in 1958, well after the USSR had started stockpiling fission and fusion weapons. The original Mayak production complex had ordinary above-ground reactors.

I believe that the the "AD", "ADE-1", and "ADE-2" reactors here are the only underground ones:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_atomic_bomb_project#Plu...

paradox460 1 day ago||||
They also had the benefit of having stolen information on what did and didn't work, via spies like the Rosenbergs. Why try what doesn't work if someone else has proved the path before
philipkglass 1 day ago||
The USSR (first bomb test: 1949) obtained secret American information from spies and the UK (first bomb test: 1952) had secret information that was intentionally shared by the US. France (first bomb test: 1960) is an interesting case because it developed its program relatively frugally without intentional US information sharing or (as far as I know) spies within the US nuclear weapons program. By the late 1950s there was just a lot more information publicly known that couldn't be hidden again. And today there is nuclear information readily available on Wikipedia that would have been considered top secret as recently as the 1970s, like:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Teller%E2%80%93...

rbanffy 1 day ago||||
> They also weren't so rushed.

The threat to the US was that, unless they are first to develop nuclear weapons, they’d risk the war could end up being fought on their land.

euroderf 1 day ago|||
I've always assumed that gaseous diffusion required a process similar to silicon etching in order to achieve the pinhole sizes required.
femto 1 day ago||
> It reached the US, ...

Behind that phrase is a whole story in itself, covered in the book "Wizards of Oz How Oliphant and Florey helped win the war and shape the modern world" by Brett Mason.

Mark Oliphant was heading a lab and tasked Otto Frisch and Rodolf Perierls with figuring out whether an atomic bomb was possible, as they were not cleared to work on radar. They concluded it was possible and wrote a two part memorandum: 'On the Construction of a "Super bomb"; based on a Nuclear Chain Reaction in Uranium' and 'Memorandum on the Properties of a Radioactive "Super-bomb"' [1,2]

Oliphant sent this report up the chain and it lead to the formation of the MAUD committee in the UK. The UK didn't have the resources to build an atomic bomb, so what was known was sent to the US. Oliphant hopped on a plane and did a tour of the US, doing technology transfer, mainly for radar, but also for an atomic bomb. Most people in the US ignored the MAUD report and Oliphant could not get traction on the atomic side. In desperation Oliphant breached security and briefed Ernest Lawrence who at the time was not cleared, also providing him with a summary of the MAUD report. Robert Oppenheimer joined the discussion between Oliphant and Lawrence. Lawrence phoned Arthur Compton in Chicago. From there the USA listened.

[1] https://web.stanford.edu/class/history5n/FPmemo.pdf

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisch%E2%80%93Peierls_memoran...

hirvi74 2 days ago||
My grandfather worked on the Manhattan Project! I am not certain of what meaningful contributions, if any, my grandfather had nor how long he was apart of the project, but I am confident that he remained in NYC for the entirety of his work -- never in Los Alamos to my knowledge.

Nevertheless, I remember asking him what was it like to actually work on the project. He said that it was far less Hollywood-esque than many would imagine -- at least for him. He was just given math/engineering problems and was asked to solve them with no context. He never knew what he was truly working on, why he was working on these problems, etc.. The work was pretty isolating and contact was with others was pretty minimal. I do know that he met both Von Neumann and Oppenheimer on at least one occasion which is pretty awesome.

I wish I could find some records, but I do not even know where to look.

theresistor 2 days ago||
My grandfather also worked on it, as a technician in Los Alamos.

He had previously been working for a scientific supplies company in Chicago that was (unbeknownst to him) providing supplies to the Manhattan Project. Apparently his boss was aware of it, and when my grandfather's draft was called a letter from his boss convinced the draft board to assign him to Los Alamos instead. He was eventually able to get my grandmother, a secretary and typist, a job as a secretary in Los Alamos as well so that she could join him. She teased him the rest of their lives, because as the secretary to someone more important than a lowly technician, she had technically had a higher security clearance than he ever did!

The Atomic Heritage Foundation collects records about people who were affiliated with the Manhattan Project, as well as oral histories. Perhaps they have more information about your grandfather's work? See here: https://ahf.nuclearmuseum.org/ahf/bios/

hirvi74 1 day ago||
Thank you for the link. I tried using their little search table, but nothing returned. One thing that makes matters a bit more difficult was record keeping at the time. My family has some other documents from his life where he apparently went by a few different permutations of his name. That, or mistakes were made when entering records.

I might trying contacting them directly though. Thanks again!

libraryofbabel 1 day ago|||
If you want advice on archives, you should just write to one of the historians who are experts on the Manhattan Project. The preeminent expert on nuclear weapons history is Alex Wellerstein, who also has a very well-regarded blog that comes up on HN from time to time: https://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/
UncleSlacky 1 day ago|||
My great-grandfather was part the team who selected the site for Oak Ridge (the only civilian, together with four military men - he was the TVA's chief mechanical engineer at the time), and he also selected the separation method to be used. The town of Oak Ridge even named a day after him when he retired.
colechristensen 2 days ago||
>I wish I could find some records, but I do not even know where to look.

The National Atomic Testing Museum in Las Vegas had a room full of file cabinets full of records you could look through the last time I was there, that might be a start.

Maybe one of the national labs that currently works on stuff has public records?

ricksunny 1 day ago||
The Atomic History Museum in LV does not allow casual perusing of their stacks, unfortunately. They will refer you to online NTS archives, and the vast majority of those available (post-declassification) are about radiation effects on biology particularly as regards historical incidents of radiation hazards. Oh, and, no index so you never know if you are seeing the entire universe of documents available. An archivist’s bugbear, IMO.
colechristensen 1 day ago||
When I was there a few years back there was a room there full of file cabinets you could indeed peruse.
ricksunny 1 day ago||
Yes I don't doubt that this was once the case.
a_square_peg 1 day ago||
It's amusing to think about what the technical hiring process would have been like if it were to happen now.

"Need 10+ years of experience in nuclear detonation device."

detourdog 1 day ago||
This article claims the B-29 bomber cost more to develop than the atomic bomb. Wild to think that the atomic bombe is simpler than an airplane.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20250829-the-bomber-that-...

joz1-k 1 day ago||
Thanks for the link! It was a good read. I also enjoyed the Wikipedia page about the B-29.
euroderf 1 day ago||
Wasn't the development of the Norden bombsight in the same ballpark?
detourdog 1 day ago||
Don't know but would be curious.
beezle 2 days ago||
While Serber's book is good, if you really want to know the technical details about Manhattan/project Y, get a copy of Critical Assembly: A Technical History of Los Alamos during the Oppenheimer Years (1943-45) ISBN 978-0521541176 in paper (can't speak to quality, I have the hard cover). It is quite accessible.

spoiler:

probably the biggest engineering problem was the explosive lens

pontifk8r 2 days ago||
I really enjoyed S.L. Sanger’s book “Hanford and the Bomb: An oral history of World War II” - but it’s out of print now and used ones? Sheesh!
Animats 1 day ago|
Ah, someone read Now it Can Be Told, (1962) by Gen. Leslie Groves, head of the Manhattan Project. This is the classic, and I read it as a kid. Much was still classified then, and we now know some things in there were wrong.
euroderf 1 day ago|
That was my intro (as a kid) too. It was a fascinating read.
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