Top
Best
New

Posted by wallflower 22 hours ago

Four-year wedding crasher mystery solved(www.theguardian.com)
307 points | 95 commentspage 2
dctoedt 14 hours ago|
In the Episcopal Church (of the U.S.), and doubtless in others, my understanding has always been that wedding ceremonies are just as open to the public as any other church service. [0]

(In contrast, the reception would be a private event.)

[0] https://www.episcopalchurch.org/glossary/celebration-and-ble...

grndn 11 minutes ago||
Two separate Sherlock Holmes stories have a "stranger at a public wedding ceremony" as a plot point!
timthorn 40 minutes ago|||
In the UK, all legal wedding ceremonies must be public to allow objections to be raised, with notice published to a formal schedule ahead of time.
lmm 55 minutes ago|||
My wedding was at a relatively famous shrine; I'm sure we're in a few tourists' holiday photos.
bigstrat2003 11 hours ago||
Same is true for the Catholic Church. Weddings and funerals are both open to the public if anyone in the community should wish to attend.
Simon_ORourke 16 hours ago||
The guy made an honest mistake - like that time I mistakenly stayed in the bar across the street from one wedding venue (that I had been invited to) and then tried to mingle with the crowd once they came out.
cynicalsecurity 17 hours ago||
There was an even crazier story when someone was fired from Apple, but still kept coming to the office to work on their project for free for like half a year before someone noticed.
Gualdrapo 17 hours ago||
Or the stories about Musk firing people for the smallest nuissance, and then their immediate superior sending the "fired" person to another department the day after - next time Musk would see that person and not remember he "fired" them
mschuster91 17 hours ago|||
[flagged]
close04 16 hours ago|||
I think the losses you’re thinking of are more than made up by the gains coming from the employees being afraid they can be fired at any moment.
jakelazaroff 16 hours ago|||
I think employees being afraid they can be fired at any moment also creates a loss of productivity.
hnlmorg 16 hours ago||||
It’s really disappointing to read someone describing that kind of toxic working environment as a “gain”.
aDyslecticCrow 14 hours ago|||
- Make employees scared to point out flaws.

- Make employees less engaged in the success of the company.

- Encurrage employees to hide or mask issues.

- Encurrage employees to pretend to be more productive than they are.

- Make employees mentally and physically less healthy.

- Make employees shy away from taking on more responsibility or tasks.

- Make employees less happy to train up new hires in their work.

Yes. Gains. All those gains. I can only see gains here.

cindyllm 14 hours ago||
[dead]
tbrownaw 15 hours ago||||
> One might wonder where the US could be if the corporate culture wasn't so trigger happy on firing people and if laws against improper terminations would a) exist and b) be enforced.

Probably the labor market would look more like countries that already do that?

> The amount of knowledge cost alone that any company incurs with such bullshit is insane, but almost no one gives a fuck because the lost knowledge reacquisition cost is usually booked under "training costs" or whatnot.

No. Bean counters don't magically skip counting those beans. Hiring managers aren't magically ignorant of effects on their team's productivity.

ufmace 15 hours ago|||
We would probably have much higher unemployment and slower-moving industries, and might no longer be the economic powerhouse of the world.

When it's simple and easy to fire people, companies are a lot more willing to take a chance on hiring somebody they aren't 100% sure will be a good employee, and willing to hire a lot and grow fast knowing in both cases they can fire easily if needed.

I find it sad that so many people never think about the second and third-order consequences of what sounds like feel-good policies. They often end up being a net-negative for the people they were intended to help.

aDyslecticCrow 14 hours ago|||
I strongly disagree. If they're is such a massive difference we would see alot less globally competetive European companies.

> a lot more willing to take a chance on hiring somebody they aren't 100% sure will be a good employee.

Just proof hire them for 6 months to a year.

Your argument doesn't hold for someone that has worked for 10 years. If they were a bad hire; it's on you at that point.

But the improvements are plenty;

- Easier planning life and reduce work anxiety for employees.

- It encurrage companies to invest and train their existing employees since they're hard to get rid off.

- It makes employees less scared to speak up or discuss problems.

- It makes companies more cautious about reckless hiring if they're not sure about their economics.

- Allows older workers to remain productive for longer, reducing the burden on the pension or unemployment system from people 55+ having a hard time finding new work for few years before retirement.

Finally, i must ask what the societal purpose of jobs and companies are. From a pure "numbers go up", there is a cost to worker protection. But id argue the society as a whole benefit much more from it than having a multinational IT company on the stock market. There is a balance to these things ofourse, but dismissing it outright is not fair.

ufmace 12 hours ago||
You're welcome to disagree, I don't mind some competition.

> Just proof hire them for 6 months to a year.

As is common with most quickly tossed out "tiny fixes" to Socialist policies of excessive regulation, this makes the whole thing more complex and doesn't really solve the full problem for either workers or companies the way true free markets do. The only real "just" is just stop meddling with what everyone else does, let workers quit and companies fire whenever they want to.

> Your argument doesn't hold for someone that has worked for 10 years. If they were a bad hire; it's on you at that point.

Yes it does. It's not necessarily only that they're a bad hire. They could have the wrong skills or temperament or something for where the company needs to go, or the company could need to shut down a whole department or something. I don't know, the world has infinite complexity and possibility. I'm not smart enough to come up with everything anyone could ever want to do, and frankly, neither are you or anyone else.

> Easier planning life and reduce work anxiety for employees.

That sounds like a personal problem. I don't care to reshape national policy to cater to someone's alleged anxiety.

> It encourage companies to invest and train their existing employees since they're hard to get rid off.

Eh maybe, but many companies still do that now because good people are still hard to find. That's the better and more reliable way to do all of these things.

> It makes employees less scared to speak up or discuss problems.

Plenty already do that, I don't think it's much of a point. It's not really proven any more than the counter-statement that it makes employees more willing to slack off.

> It makes companies more cautious about reckless hiring if they're not sure about their economics.

That's exactly my point. I think it's good to let them "recklessly" hire if they think they can afford it. Some will get things right and grow huge, other will fail and those workers will be able to find new jobs more easily.

> Allows older workers to remain productive for longer, reducing the burden on the pension or unemployment system from people 55+ having a hard time finding new work for few years before retirement.

"Allow" how? They can already do that fine. Many companies value the experience of older workers just fine without the Government forcing them to do things. And I'd rather they have a comfortable retirement already set up from a robust investment market, possibly with a 401k or something like that. I don't want them to be dependent on either one company or the Government.

And intentionally saving this for last along with the end:

> If they're is such a massive difference we would see alot less globally competetive European companies.

> Finally, i must ask what the societal purpose of jobs and companies are. From a pure "numbers go up", there is a cost to worker protection. But id argue the society as a whole benefit much more from it than having a multinational IT company on the stock market. There is a balance to these things ofourse, but dismissing it outright is not fair.

"much less competitive European companies" is exactly what I do see, and you are also arguing that that's a good thing. Europe seems to have very little in the way of invention or growth pretty much since WWII. They haven't invented much new, and most of what they have invented has been eclipsed by more aggressive and nimble American companies. The European economy is still mostly dominated by the same large companies mostly doing the same things they've always done, sometimes adopting new technology long after American companies led the way.

I'm not dismissing anything outright. I've carefully observed the results of both styles of economy and I prefer freer markets. I like helping lead the way towards creating awesome things thanks to everyone's free will. It's not always perfect, but the market usually fixes things faster and better than half-baked Government policies.

aDyslecticCrow 18 minutes ago||
I know this is quite a deep cultural difference between Europe and USA going back ... probably since the the industrial revolution. I dont even think we can compare numbers and expect the same outcome if the US implemented european worker laws.

One thing i am curious about though. Do you think worker unions are a good thing? Historically USA pioneered them, yet theyre nearly nonexistent today.

The reason i ask is, Sweden where I'm from, does not actually have a miminum wage, or much of any worker protection codified in law. Its a more open market than people (even swedes) really realize. Its just that a we have a 68% unionizaion rate of all workers, 2nd highest in the world. Its the unions that have established much of the worker protections.

> They haven't invented much new, and most of what they have invented has been eclipsed by more aggressive and nimble American companies.

I think this is rather difficult to measure. Certainly it looks that way for the tech sector in particular.

But europe also has a very high upstart per captia ratio. Its also there really common that small innovative european upstarts get bought up by international and American companies after passing 100-200 employees. We rarely see new giant corporations show up in europe before being absorbed.

Though i also think if any of the US FANG companies were based in europe they would be shattered by monopoly protection laws at a heartbeat. Our ideals about a good company is simply different.

jbs789 5 hours ago|||
It's a valid point. As with anything there is balance. Consider the value of being able to plan some aspect of one's life. This generally goes up as one gets older and is responsible for others.
93po 16 hours ago|||
I don't understand the dig here. Is that that Elon is required to memorize the face of every single person he interacts with? That he isn't allowed to fire people he manages when he sees behavior or actions that don't align with what he wants in his orgs?

Also, what exactly is the source of this information? I spent multiple minutes googling for an anecdote of him firing someone for a small nuissance, or firing someone and then not recognizing them later, or firing someone and then them getting surreptitiously moved to a different department.

I'm fine if this actually happened, Elon definitely sucks. But otherwise this just feels like weird middle school gossip.

krisoft 15 hours ago|||
The dig is three fold. (if the story is true, about which I have my doubts.)

One: Elon instead of cultivating an organisation where the right people are rewarded and the wrong people are selected out tries to personally weed out the wrong ones. That is fundamentally foolish even if he is firing people who should be fired.

Two: His subordinates don't respect his decision and instead of letting go the people he wanted to fire, they "hide" them in the organisation elsewhere.

Three: He is too distracted / stupid / incompetent to then notice that his decision has been undermined.

D-Coder 15 hours ago||||
> I don't understand the dig here. Is that that Elon is required to memorize the face of every single person he interacts with?

That he is required (well, expected) to remember the faces of people he _fired_.

subarctic 15 hours ago|||
I thought it was a funny story...
indy 16 hours ago|||
Weren't there also stories of people being afraid of stepping into elevators with Steve Jobs? He'd ask them about the work they were doing and if the answer didn't please Jobs he'd fire them
RyanOD 14 hours ago||
I had something like this happen to you me once, though not at Apple.

I was quite young in my career and ended up on an elevator with the CEO. I got super nervous and just started running my mouth about something I perceived as a problem within the organization (!).

On Monday he called me into his office and reamed me. Though I don't think chewing a young employee out in such a situation is the best approach, I'd say I at least deserved a, "Ok, listen youngster..." sort of dressing down.

My boss pulled me aside later and said, "Don't ever talk to a CEO. Nothing good can come from it." I followed that advice the rest of my career.

Oh and the CEO canceled my end of year bonus. :)

greyb 8 hours ago||
My father, a blue collar immigrant worker, did the same thing in his 40s. His CEO had an open door policy so he went in and expressed concerns. That day, he learnt that an open door policy is a massive red herring and got reamed for disturbing the CEO. It was all performative - they don't actually care.
Hemospectrum 17 hours ago|||
Are you perhaps referring to this?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33229793

dilyevsky 16 hours ago|||
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GMyg5ohTsVY

Aside from Craigs talk which i think never was released publicly my favorite talk

mathattack 13 hours ago||
I thought “whoops, wrong wedding” was a little anti-climactic.
russdill 11 hours ago|
It's a cute just so story. Maybe not super interesting, but a fun read
LadyCailin 14 hours ago||
Something similar happened to me in college. I got to my class late, and there was only one seat left, in the middle of the row in the large auditorium, so I had to make a big commotion getting to it. I finally sit down and pull out my notes, only to realize that whatever this substitute teacher was talking about was totally Greek to me. After a while, it dawned on me - I wasn’t late for class, I was super early! Since I made such a commotion getting to the seat, and since I didn’t want to do that again, I just sat there and pretended to take notes. My class was the one after, and I left the room when everyone else did, went to the bathroom, then came back, just so no one would notice that I was going to the much more junior class right after. :D
madaxe_again 17 hours ago||
I am something of a professional gatecrasher, which is a skill I picked up from a friend many years ago.

Interesting event happening as you’re walking past? Just walk on in, look like you belong, see where it goes. That or carry around a hi vis vest - they fold up tiny and can live in a jacket pocket unnoticeably, and they will allow you access anywhere. Occasionally I’ve had to doodle “STEWARD” or similar on the back. Back in the pocket once you’re in, or you’ll be rigging lighting or serving drinks.

Through this I have ended up with friends, work, and anecdotes galore.

I’ve also been chucked out of a few things but that’s definitely the minority - most of the time when people are like “so are you with the royal brigadiers…?” I’ll just say “no, I’m gatecrashing”, and they assume I’m joking until they realise I’m not, but by that point we’re already on our fourth round.

pavel_lishin 15 hours ago||
> That or carry around a hi vis vest - they fold up tiny and can live in a jacket pocket unnoticeably, and they will allow you access anywhere.

Probably won't work as well at a wedding.

analog31 10 hours ago||
Tuxedo works fine for a wedding. I'm a wedding musician, so I'm often in a tux, and nobody questions it.
tern 16 hours ago||
Let's hear some stories!
nowittyusername 11 hours ago||
Seinfeld episode if I ever seen one, something something Kramer with some side shenanigans...
Rygian 17 hours ago||
You may be referring to Catalan language. I'm not aware of any "Catalan variant" of Spanish.
tomhow 12 hours ago||
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45234383 and marked it off topic.

Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

schoen 14 hours ago|||
While Catalan speakers would be very unlikely to say "Catalan Spanish", there is a conception that there are many "lenguas españolas" (Spanish languages, as in languages that are part of the country of Spain). In this formulation even Basque is a "Spanish language" (as a language of Spain), even though it isn't linguistically related to Castilian Spanish.

Notably, the constitution of Spain uses this phrasing in its article 3:

1. El castellano es la lengua española oficial del Estado. Todos los españoles tienen el deber de conocerla y el derecho a usarla.

2. Las demás lenguas españolas serán también oficiales en las respectivas Comunidades Autónomas de acuerdo con sus Estatutos.

3. La riqueza de las distintas modalidades lingüísticas de España es un patrimonio cultural que será objeto de especial respeto y protección.

In English:

1. Castilian is the official Spanish language of the state. All Spaniards have the duty to know it and the right to use it.

2. The other Spanish languages are also official in their respective Autonomous Communities, in accordance with their Statutes.

3. The richness of the different linguistic modalities of Spain is a cultural heritage which shall be accorded particular respect and protection.

I've heard a minority of (seemingly highly educated) people prefer to say "Castellano" instead of "Español", maybe as a deliberate reference to this concept.

normie3000 14 hours ago||
> I've heard a minority of (seemingly highly educated) people prefer to say "Castellano" instead of "Español"

I would expect castellano in Spain, and español in the Americas. Does this align with your experience?

jvican 6 hours ago||
Not always. People from the center and west side of Spain typically refer to it as "español" rather than "castellano". Nonetheless, it's true educated people typically refer to it as "castellano" as well as other Spaniards that live in a region where other official languages are spoken.
dddgghhbbfblk 16 hours ago|||
While "Catalan Spanish" is certainly a nonstandard term, when contrasted against "Castilian Spanish" it does make some sense: it's the Romance variant that developed in the Catalonia part of Spain, vs the one that developed in Castile.
Rygian 15 hours ago||
I see the point. But it hangs on a thin string. One more stretch and you'd get "west-side Spanish" for Portuguese, or some sort of "gaelic Spanish" for Occitan.
ted_dunning 14 hours ago|||
Darn! You're right.

The step after is to start talking about Provencal as if it were a dialect or French. Or Sicilian or Napolitano as a dialect of Italian.

What will the world come to!

normie3000 14 hours ago||||
Isn't Occitan "French Catalan Spanish"?
pvaldes 15 hours ago|||
Obviously Catalonia is a part of Spain, they are Spanish, while Portugal and France are different countries.
rkomorn 15 hours ago||
FWIW, I think some Catalans have a very different opinion.
jvican 14 hours ago|||
Regardless of how they might feel, they're still Spanish (hold a Spanish passport), so it's a true fact. I also take issue with you claiming that all Catalans feel this way, that's largely untrue.

That being said, both terms "Castilian Spanish" and "Catalan Spanish" sound weird to me. Source: I'm both a Catalan and Spanish speaker. In my languages, they're both referred as "Castellano" o "Catalan".

I'd appreciate that people referred to these languages either as Catalan or Spanish, no need for unnecessary qualifiers. (Spanish is, unlike English, a completely centralized language. No need to make geographical distinctions.)

rkomorn 14 hours ago|||
> I also take issue with you claiming that all Catalans feel this way, that's largely untrue.

There are literally 10 words in my comment and you couldn't even read all of them?

jvican 6 hours ago||
Sorry for misreading, didn't notice the 'some'.
rkomorn 14 hours ago||||
> Spanish is, unlike English, a completely centralized language. No need to make geographical distinctions.

So you'd say there are no distinctions worth noting between the Spanish spoken in any Spanish-speaking Latin American country and the Spanish spoken in Spain?

jvican 6 hours ago||
Most of the times, for most of the speakers, there is no need to make a distinction.

Why would any one feel it's important to say they went to Sydney and spoke to the peoples of Australia in Australian English?

rkomorn 4 hours ago||
I'd say that, for example, there are significant enough pronunciation (and in a few cases, vocabulary) differences between Portuguese in Portugal vs Brazil.

From experience, learning one is not the same as the other.

So there are definitely contexts where these differences matter.

normie3000 14 hours ago|||
> they're still Spanish

Isn't Catalan the official language of Andorra?

"Catalan Spanish" makes as much sense as "Basque Spanish". It sounds like an English translation of "catañol".

jvican 6 hours ago||
Yes, but when people refer to "Catalan people", they refer to people from Catalunya, Spain, not Andorra.
pvaldes 14 hours ago|||
Then, they can declare an independence war, and win that war. They can't have their cake and eat it.

Something that not even the most stubborn separatists want to do, while enjoying the special treatment of "I feel oppressed under the weight of all this Spanish fiscal benefits that other Spaniards don't have".

Until that war happens, saying I'm not Spanish, I'm from Catalonia, is like an American native from Oklahoma saying "I don't feel like an USA citizen, so I will not pay taxes but I will keep all the benefits, freedom of movement, etc that they have". Yes you are and US citizen. Feelings are irrelevant from a legal point of view. Stop acting like a child. After 20 years repeating the same dumb lie, is frankly annoying for the rest of us.

bdunks 13 hours ago||
“A language is a dialect with an army and navy”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with...

russellbeattie 15 hours ago|||
I learned Spanish in Madrid - there's definitely no Catalan dialect of Spanish - it's either/or. And the northeastern Spanish accent is perfectly understandable (unlike, say, Galicia or Andalusia).

So it's surprising that OP thought Catalan was a version of Spanish, because it's completely unintelligible to anyone who learned Spanish as a second language (like myself) - not sure about native speakers. I can't even pronounce the street names in Barcelona when I visit.

normie3000 14 hours ago||
> it's completely unintelligible to anyone who learned Spanish

This is wild. The languages share a lot of vocabulary and grammar.

> I can't even pronounce the street names in Barcelona when I visit.

This is also wild. I can see there are some words like "passeig" and "plaça" which aren't immediately familiar, but they're not far from the Spanish equivalents. And you could have a good shot at pronouncing many other streets like "Gran Via" and "Diagonal".

russellbeattie 9 hours ago||
You can take a wild guess at the street names if you're reading them out loud, of course.

But what do you do when someone tells you an address on a street like Passatge di'Alió ("pasa je dia lio??"). You're not remembering that on the first try, you won't write it down correctly and later when you try to tell the taxista where to go they'll look at you like you're crazy. (This is from personal experience.)

gerdesj 13 hours ago||
Scottish bloke rocks up to the wrong wedding, simple mistake.

Top thread on HN riffs on Catalan independence. To be fair, Scotland and Catalonia both cite each other as exemplars.

For me, I'm fighting for Wessex's independence from England and hence Britain oh and the UK. Eventually I'll fight for Somerset, then Yeovil and finally Brunswick Street. Not sure how it will all work.

Nominative tribalism can be a force for good or bad but rarely makes a useful contribution to an article about a daft mistake that has a heart warming finale.

867-5309 12 hours ago||
tbf, Catalonia and Caledonia are homophones when uttered by an American dyslexic
espine 18 hours ago|
[dead]