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Posted by epb_hn 6 hours ago

Magical systems thinking(worksinprogress.co)
235 points | 72 comments
samstokes 5 hours ago|
What an interesting and strange article. The author barely offers a definition of "systems thinking", only names one person to represent it, and then claims to refute the whole discipline based on a single incorrect prediction and the fact that government is bad at software projects. It's not clear what positive suggestions this article offers except to always disregard regulation and build your own thing from scratch, which is ... certainly consistent with the Works In Progress imprint.

The way I learned "systems thinking" explicitly includes the perspectives this article offers to refute it - a system model is useful but only a model, it is better used to understand an existing system than to design a new one, assume the system will react to resist intervention. I've found this definition of systems thinking extremely useful as a way to look reductively at a complex system - e.g. we keep investing in quality but having more outages anyway, maybe something is optimizing for the wrong goal - and intervene to shift behaviour without tearing down the whole thing, something this article dismisses as impossible.

The author and I would agree on Gall's Law. But the author's conclusion to "start with a simple system that works" commits the same hubris that the article, and Gall, warn against - how do you know the "simple" system you design will work, or will be simple? You can't know either of those things just by being clever. You have to see the system working in reality, and you have to see if the simplicity you imagined actually corresponds to how it works in reality. Gall's Law isn't saying "if you start simple it will work", it's saying "if it doesn't work then adding complexity won't fix it".

This article reads a bit like the author has encountered resistance from people in the past from people who cited "systems thinking" as the reason for their resistance, and so the author wants to discredit that term. Maybe the term means different things to different people, or it's been used in bad faith. But what the article attacks isn't systems thinking as I know it, more like high modernism. The author and systems thinking might get along quite well if they ever actually met.

Ozzie_osman 4 hours ago||
I didn't feel like he was refuting the whole discipline. Rather, he seems to admire Forrester and the whole discipline. The argument just seems to be, even with great systems thinking, you can't build a complex system from scratch and that existing complex systems are often hard to fix.
estearum 7 minutes ago|||
But this is a core idea in systems thinking which the author claims is ignored by it
samstokes 4 hours ago|||
The title of the article is an intentional conflation of "systems thinking" with "magical thinking", which is not a compliment.
timkam 2 hours ago||
Couldn't one interpret "magical systems thinking" as a fallacy that people may commit when applying systems thinking? More broadly, I find some of the comments here rather harsh, also considering that many observations in the article are intuitively true for anyone whose ever been exposed to bureaucracy on the meta-level.
marcosdumay 4 hours ago|||
There is something about Club of Rome to systems thinking that is similar to the Dijkstra's observation about Basic and programming.

Articles debunking them are always full of fundamental misunderstandings about the discipline. (The ones supporting them are obviously wrong.) And people focusing on understanding the discipline never actually refer to them in any way.

scotty79 1 hour ago|||
> The author barely offers a definition of "systems thinking", only names one person to represent it, and then claims to refute the whole discipline based on a single incorrect prediction and the fact that government is bad at software projects.

All valid criticisms, but somehow it sounds exactly like something a member of inept bureaucracy would say.

voidhorse 5 hours ago|||
Yeah, what they are attempting mg to do in the span of one short essay is equivalent to trying to discredit an entire field of inquiry. Even if you don't think the field is worth anything, it should be obvious that it will take a lot of research and significant argumentation to accomplish that goal, this essay is lacking in both departments.
DonHopkins 2 hours ago|||
Applying the idea of "starting with a simple system that works"̀ to Factorio, Shapez (and now Shapez 2) is like Factorio for abstract geometric shapes and colors.

It's got all the essential elements of Factorio that make it so interesting and compelling, which apply to so many other fields from VLSI design to networking to cloud computing.

But you mine shapes and colors and combine them into progressively more complex patterns!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shapez_2

scotty79 1 hour ago||
What Factorio started, grew up into entire genre. Various ideas are vigorously explored by various games.
wtbdbrrr 3 hours ago|||
> assume the system will react to resist intervention

Systems don't do that. Only constituents who fear particular consequences do.

Systems also don't care about levels of complexity. Especially since it's insanely hard to actually break systems that are held together by only the "what the fuck is going on, let's look into that" kind. Hours, days, weeks, later, things run again. BILLIONS lost. Oh, we wish ...

At the end of the day, the term Systems Thinking is overloaded by all the parts that have been invented by so called economists and "the financial industry", which makes me chuckle every time now that it's 2025 and oil rich countries have been in development for decades, the advertisement industry is factory farming content creators and economists and multi-billionaires want more tikktoccc and instagwam to get into the backs of teen heads.

If you are a SWE, systems architect or anything in that sphere, please, ... act like you care about the people you are building for ... take some time off if you can and take care of must be taken care of, ... it's just systems, after all.

catlifeonmars 2 hours ago|||
> Systems don't do that. Only constituents who fear particular consequences do.

These are part of a system. Ignoring these components gives you an incomplete model.

(All models are incomplete, by definition, but ignoring constituents that have a major influence greatly reduces the effectiveness of your model)

tbrownaw 1 hour ago|||
>> > assume the system will react to resist intervention

Systems don't do that. Only constituents who fear particular consequences do. <<

For example, the human body is pretty decent at maintaining a fixed internal temperature.

Cities supposedly maintain a fairly stable transit time even as transit infrastructure improves.

karmakaze 3 hours ago||
The article seems to think that systems thinking only applies at a certain lower scale. Even bringing up the bullwhip effect, and talking about it in certain kinds of systems is itself systems thinking, just not at the subcomponent level which doesn't show it. Systems thinking is about interactions and context.
satyarthms 19 minutes ago||
I have a bone to pick with the paragraph:

> But, as we now know, the results were also wrong. Adjusting for inflation, world GDP is now about five times higher than it was in 1970 and continues to rise. More than 90 percent of that growth has come from Asia, Europe, and North America, but forest cover across those regions has increased, up 2.6 percent since 1990 to over 2.3 billion hectares in 2020. The death rate from air pollution has almost halved in the same period, from 185 per 100,000 in 1990 to 100 in 2021. According to the model, none of this should have been possible.

Okay, forest cover increasing and death rate from air pollution decreasing contradicts the prediction from 1970, but I feel these trends are a result of richer countries being able to outsource their environmental pollution/destruction to the global south and scavenging it for raw materials. I wonder if the forest cover statistics count the massive expanses of land deforested and replaced with monoculture plantations (palm oil, etc.) that end up having a giant effect on biodiversity (and will no doubt come back to bite us in the ass)? Even if this outsourcing of externalities couldn't be modeled 50 years ago, I feel like that doesn't detract from the spirit of the takeaways from the Club of Rome and The Limits to Growth.

elcapitan 5 hours ago||
This insight - that modeling human systems is hard because humans also respond to models of their world and then change it - is not all that new, it's called reflexivity [1] and has been around for about the same time as systems thinking.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflexivity_(social_theory)

bostik 4 hours ago|
Also a major contributing factor to second (and third) order effects. Humans, groups, even societies all respond to changes - and if you cannot anticipate what those changes might be, then you are out of luck.

(You will never get all them right. You will never even be able to list what their entirety will be. But you have to be able to predict the order of magnitude of a few of them.)

bloudermilk 5 hours ago||
This is actually a critique of massive bureaucratic systems, not systems thinking as a practice. Gall's work is presented as an argument against systems thinking, while it's a contribution to the field. Popular books on systems thinking all acknowledge the limitations, pitfalls, and strategies for putting theory into practice. That large bureaucracies often fails to is, in my view, an unrelated subject.
tra3 4 hours ago||
I used to suffer from analysis paralysis when designing even basic things, be it software engineering or my next week's schedule. After all, paraphrasing, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face".

I found it much better to take the first step and progress from there, even when the full solution is not known. Maybe it's a testament to the limits of my own context window. Having said, I'm not advocating for abandoning architecture or engineering principles. I like the idea of "Growing software" [0]. It's perhaps a more holistic metaphor.

In terms of short circuiting large bureaucracies, I found "Fighter Mafia" [1] to be an interesting example of this. A group of military officials/contractors managed to influence aircraft design, somewhat outside of the "official" channels. The outcome was better than if it went through normal channels.

[0]: http://www.growing-object-oriented-software.com

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighter_Mafia

growingkittens 6 hours ago||
This article does not begin to cover systems thinking. Cybernetics and metacybernetics are noticably missing. Paul Cilliers' theory of complexity - unmentioned. Nothing about Stafford Beer and the viable system model. So on and so forth.

The things the author complains about seem to be "parts of systems thinking they aren't aware of". The field is still developing.

non_aligned 5 hours ago||
"Metacybernetics" is a concept with a small handful of Google hits, some of which appear to be obscure research papers and some appear to be metaphysical crackpottery on blogs.

I think it's worth considering that the theories you're familiar with are incredibly niche, have never gained any foothold in mainstream discussions of system dynamics, and it's not wrong for people not to be aware of them (or to choose not to mention them) in a post addressed at general audiences.

Further, you just missed the opportunity to explain these concepts to a broader HN audience and maybe make sure that the next time someone writes about it, they are aware of this work.

growingkittens 4 hours ago|||
Metacybernetics is the only obscure word on that list, and it refers to all of the first-order cybernetics, second-order cybernetics, etc.

You missed the opportunity to ask a simple question - what is metacybernetics? - and decided everything on that list was just as niche.

voidhorse 5 hours ago||||
Cybernetics was the birthing place of neural networks. Hardly niche.

I don't think commenters should be expected to provide full overviews of topics just to inform others. Parent gave plenty of pointers beyond metacybernetics, all of which are certainly discoverable. If you are curious, read about it. It's not the responsibility of random strangers to educate you.

homarp 3 hours ago||
>cybernetics was the birthing place of NN

would https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Sturgis_McCulloch be what you mean?

and if not,can you give the right pointer?

spectraldrift 5 hours ago|||
It seems odd to me that someone would write such a polished and comprehensive article and yet completely misunderstand the definition of the central topic.
growingkittens 5 hours ago||
That happens in system dynamics a lot, actually - there are many independently developed theories in many different disciplines that do not intertwine historically at all. I have met multiple people who work with systems mathematically on a professional level who had no idea about these other things.
voidhorse 5 hours ago||
I've seen this too. In particular there seems to be a huge dividing line between systems research stemming from the physical-mathematical heritage of formal dynamical systems, and the other line mostly stemming from everything Wiener did with cybernetics (and some others who were contemporaneous with Wiener). Both sides can be profitably informed by the other in various ways.
Terr_ 1 hour ago|||
On that note, a relevant recent book-read: "Unnacountability Machines" - https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/U/bo252799...

There was some hard to follow explanations in it, but the author tries to connect the history and goals of cybernetics versus modern problems like being unable to get support from a company.

zer00eyz 5 hours ago||
Because people wandering in are going to wonder about the term cybernetics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Society_for_Cyberneti...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complexity_theory

dkdcio 4 hours ago||
why not just https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetics
pclmulqdq 3 hours ago||
The citation to the beer game is a pretty fun one. About 15 years ago, John Sterman (a Forrester disciple) held a beer game "world championship" at a system dynamics conference, and my mother and I brought what we think is the optimal strategy and completely dominated the competition. Ironically, if you apply "systems thinking" in the right way, the beer game is a relatively simple thing to play extremely close to optimally. You can recognize that only one player can make choices that matter for the final outcome of the game, and then eliminate most of the claimed dynamics. The issues with systems thinking mostly show up with people being dumb panicky apes and with the pilot/modeler not understanding the system. The math works if you let the math work for you.
gharlan 2 hours ago|
This sounds interesting. Do you have a more fleshed out write-up of the strategy somewhere?
pclmulqdq 2 hours ago||
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7360108
kaycebasques 3 hours ago||
I'm glad that the author mentions Systemantics because their line of thinking seems heavily influenced by that book. I noted all the main ideas here: https://biodigitaljazz.net/systemantics.html
isoprophlex 5 hours ago||
I just want to know if there exists a Factorio mod that changes the graphics to the cutesy, minimalist assets shown in the topmost image.
jcalx 4 hours ago|
Not exactly the same aesthetic, but the Factorio blog has examples of early concept art in a minimal line-art style (like [0]) and I actually like it!

[0] https://cdn.factorio.com/assets/blog-sync/fff-420-line-art.p...

alphazard 2 hours ago|
The article is right to be critical of "systems thinking", but only because people who advocate "systems thinking" usually don't have a concrete definition of "system" or any unique method of thinking.

The complicated systems that are alluded to here, are usually best modeled as optimizers or control systems. Both have clear definitions and vast mathematical corpi.

In a house with heating, it's difficult to cool the whole house or even a single room by leaving the freezer door open. Why? because the system is programmed to be a certain temperate and has a mechanism continuously driving it to that temperature. It's difficult to knock over one of the Boston Dynamics robots for the same reason.

If the government declares that rents cannot be higher than a certain price per square foot, then mysteriously only the renters with impeccable financials and renting history will be able to get houses. And some houses will stop being available for rent. Why? Because the market is optimizing for value creation. Honest, considerate renters devalue the property less during their stay, and some properties are worth more than the maximum rental price when used for another purpose. If you limit the price, agents will fallback to other mechanisms to determine the most valuable course of action. In this example that is minimizing missed payments, evictions, and property damage.

Unless you affect the controller or optimizer hidden in each system, you can't manipulate the system effectively. Usually you aren't able to do this, and so the system is difficult to control. It's easier to rip out a thermostat than to disable the desire of millions of humans to create value. If you can't model the system in a rigorous way, and then use math to predict and explain it, then you won't be able to manipulate it. Saying that you are using "systems thinking" won't change that.

cl3misch 1 hour ago|
> it's difficult to cool the whole house or even a single room by leaving the freezer door open

I think cooling with an open freezer is impossible in general? Or is that your point and I don't understand the argument?

alphazard 1 hour ago||
The point is that just dumping an arbitrary amount of cold into the house is unlikely to change the temperature because the thermostat has access to more heat, and has a different goal.

That example was meant to illustrate why simple one off actions have a diminished or imperceptible effect on the system.

rcxdude 12 minutes ago||
It's just not a great one because an open freezer or fridge will not cool a room at all, anyway: it pumps heat (with some inefficiency, i.e. more heat) from inside itself into the room, so it will on average heat up a room if it's left with its door open.
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