The way I learned "systems thinking" explicitly includes the perspectives this article offers to refute it - a system model is useful but only a model, it is better used to understand an existing system than to design a new one, assume the system will react to resist intervention. I've found this definition of systems thinking extremely useful as a way to look reductively at a complex system - e.g. we keep investing in quality but having more outages anyway, maybe something is optimizing for the wrong goal - and intervene to shift behaviour without tearing down the whole thing, something this article dismisses as impossible.
The author and I would agree on Gall's Law. But the author's conclusion to "start with a simple system that works" commits the same hubris that the article, and Gall, warn against - how do you know the "simple" system you design will work, or will be simple? You can't know either of those things just by being clever. You have to see the system working in reality, and you have to see if the simplicity you imagined actually corresponds to how it works in reality. Gall's Law isn't saying "if you start simple it will work", it's saying "if it doesn't work then adding complexity won't fix it".
This article reads a bit like the author has encountered resistance from people in the past from people who cited "systems thinking" as the reason for their resistance, and so the author wants to discredit that term. Maybe the term means different things to different people, or it's been used in bad faith. But what the article attacks isn't systems thinking as I know it, more like high modernism. The author and systems thinking might get along quite well if they ever actually met.
Articles debunking them are always full of fundamental misunderstandings about the discipline. (The ones supporting them are obviously wrong.) And people focusing on understanding the discipline never actually refer to them in any way.
All valid criticisms, but somehow it sounds exactly like something a member of inept bureaucracy would say.
It's got all the essential elements of Factorio that make it so interesting and compelling, which apply to so many other fields from VLSI design to networking to cloud computing.
But you mine shapes and colors and combine them into progressively more complex patterns!
Systems don't do that. Only constituents who fear particular consequences do.
Systems also don't care about levels of complexity. Especially since it's insanely hard to actually break systems that are held together by only the "what the fuck is going on, let's look into that" kind. Hours, days, weeks, later, things run again. BILLIONS lost. Oh, we wish ...
At the end of the day, the term Systems Thinking is overloaded by all the parts that have been invented by so called economists and "the financial industry", which makes me chuckle every time now that it's 2025 and oil rich countries have been in development for decades, the advertisement industry is factory farming content creators and economists and multi-billionaires want more tikktoccc and instagwam to get into the backs of teen heads.
If you are a SWE, systems architect or anything in that sphere, please, ... act like you care about the people you are building for ... take some time off if you can and take care of must be taken care of, ... it's just systems, after all.
These are part of a system. Ignoring these components gives you an incomplete model.
(All models are incomplete, by definition, but ignoring constituents that have a major influence greatly reduces the effectiveness of your model)
Systems don't do that. Only constituents who fear particular consequences do. <<
For example, the human body is pretty decent at maintaining a fixed internal temperature.
Cities supposedly maintain a fairly stable transit time even as transit infrastructure improves.
> But, as we now know, the results were also wrong. Adjusting for inflation, world GDP is now about five times higher than it was in 1970 and continues to rise. More than 90 percent of that growth has come from Asia, Europe, and North America, but forest cover across those regions has increased, up 2.6 percent since 1990 to over 2.3 billion hectares in 2020. The death rate from air pollution has almost halved in the same period, from 185 per 100,000 in 1990 to 100 in 2021. According to the model, none of this should have been possible.
Okay, forest cover increasing and death rate from air pollution decreasing contradicts the prediction from 1970, but I feel these trends are a result of richer countries being able to outsource their environmental pollution/destruction to the global south and scavenging it for raw materials. I wonder if the forest cover statistics count the massive expanses of land deforested and replaced with monoculture plantations (palm oil, etc.) that end up having a giant effect on biodiversity (and will no doubt come back to bite us in the ass)? Even if this outsourcing of externalities couldn't be modeled 50 years ago, I feel like that doesn't detract from the spirit of the takeaways from the Club of Rome and The Limits to Growth.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflexivity_(social_theory)
(You will never get all them right. You will never even be able to list what their entirety will be. But you have to be able to predict the order of magnitude of a few of them.)
I found it much better to take the first step and progress from there, even when the full solution is not known. Maybe it's a testament to the limits of my own context window. Having said, I'm not advocating for abandoning architecture or engineering principles. I like the idea of "Growing software" [0]. It's perhaps a more holistic metaphor.
In terms of short circuiting large bureaucracies, I found "Fighter Mafia" [1] to be an interesting example of this. A group of military officials/contractors managed to influence aircraft design, somewhat outside of the "official" channels. The outcome was better than if it went through normal channels.
The things the author complains about seem to be "parts of systems thinking they aren't aware of". The field is still developing.
I think it's worth considering that the theories you're familiar with are incredibly niche, have never gained any foothold in mainstream discussions of system dynamics, and it's not wrong for people not to be aware of them (or to choose not to mention them) in a post addressed at general audiences.
Further, you just missed the opportunity to explain these concepts to a broader HN audience and maybe make sure that the next time someone writes about it, they are aware of this work.
You missed the opportunity to ask a simple question - what is metacybernetics? - and decided everything on that list was just as niche.
I don't think commenters should be expected to provide full overviews of topics just to inform others. Parent gave plenty of pointers beyond metacybernetics, all of which are certainly discoverable. If you are curious, read about it. It's not the responsibility of random strangers to educate you.
would https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Sturgis_McCulloch be what you mean?
and if not,can you give the right pointer?
There was some hard to follow explanations in it, but the author tries to connect the history and goals of cybernetics versus modern problems like being unable to get support from a company.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Society_for_Cyberneti...
[0] https://cdn.factorio.com/assets/blog-sync/fff-420-line-art.p...
The complicated systems that are alluded to here, are usually best modeled as optimizers or control systems. Both have clear definitions and vast mathematical corpi.
In a house with heating, it's difficult to cool the whole house or even a single room by leaving the freezer door open. Why? because the system is programmed to be a certain temperate and has a mechanism continuously driving it to that temperature. It's difficult to knock over one of the Boston Dynamics robots for the same reason.
If the government declares that rents cannot be higher than a certain price per square foot, then mysteriously only the renters with impeccable financials and renting history will be able to get houses. And some houses will stop being available for rent. Why? Because the market is optimizing for value creation. Honest, considerate renters devalue the property less during their stay, and some properties are worth more than the maximum rental price when used for another purpose. If you limit the price, agents will fallback to other mechanisms to determine the most valuable course of action. In this example that is minimizing missed payments, evictions, and property damage.
Unless you affect the controller or optimizer hidden in each system, you can't manipulate the system effectively. Usually you aren't able to do this, and so the system is difficult to control. It's easier to rip out a thermostat than to disable the desire of millions of humans to create value. If you can't model the system in a rigorous way, and then use math to predict and explain it, then you won't be able to manipulate it. Saying that you are using "systems thinking" won't change that.
I think cooling with an open freezer is impossible in general? Or is that your point and I don't understand the argument?
That example was meant to illustrate why simple one off actions have a diminished or imperceptible effect on the system.