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Posted by redbell 8 hours ago

Repetitive negative thinking associated with cognitive decline in older adults(bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com)
148 points | 78 comments
sieste 54 minutes ago|
> the participants in the Q3 and Q4 groups exhibited lower cognition scores (Q3:β = -0.180, 95%CI -2.849~-0.860; Q4:β = -0.164, 95% -2.611~-0.666)

This seems wrong. If "β" is the estimate here (not sure), it should be inside the confidence interval, but is way outside...

Jakap 23 minutes ago||
What about just talking gibberish in your mind? https://studyfinds.org/buddhist-meditation-christian-tongues...
kcoddington 6 hours ago||
I'm not seeing where they are coming up with RNT as a cause, other than a lot of theory. Wouldn't it be a symptom of cognitive decline instead? Dementia patients, particularly those with Alzheimers, tend to become depressed because of confusion and memory loss. Wouldn't it be more likely that these depression symptoms are being caused by deteriotating brain function rather than the other way around?
IAmBroom 6 hours ago||
They don't claim it's a cause. In fact, they explicitly state more research is needed to determine the relationship.
Jabrov 1 hour ago|||
No one’s saying anything about it being a cause though … association is not cause
giantg2 5 hours ago|||
I believe there have been other studies showing people with a history of depression develop dementia at higher rates. There are some that have shown the structural/signal changes that happen after longterm depression as well. These are things that occur years or decades before the dementia.
pessimizer 5 hours ago||
Of course. It would be bizarre if there weren't a relationship between Lewy Body dementia, Alzheimer's, or vascular dementia (which in old people, means you've gone into heart failure) and repetitive negative thoughts. For one, you know you've got an incurable disease that will inevitably destroy your mind, and you've become one of the rare class of people for which assisted suicide has almost no controversy, it's something you're putting down payments on. For two, you can't finish thoughts.

My father was just diagnosed with Parkinson's a few months ago, and he already has trouble following any conversation, and knows it. If that didn't lead to depression, that's what would be notable. And any insight that he reaches that gives him comfort might be gone an hour later.

It just seems like a silly study.

BriggyDwiggs42 36 minutes ago||
Wait down payments? Is that metaphorical? How much does that cost?
hliyan 5 hours ago||
I have a personal theory (I'm sure it's not a novel one and it probably has a name) that human brains are naturally predisposed to negative thought than positive thought because our brains are essentially evolved prediction engines. And because it is often easier and faster to lose something than gain it (e.g. it is usually less urgent to act on the signs of deer you might want to hunt and eat, than the sign of a tiger who might want to hunt and eat you), our prediction engines have a bias toward negative prediction. Conscious awareness of this fact (or rather, theory) has helped me curb negative thoughts at least to some extent.
growingkittens 4 hours ago||
I know that traumatized human brains tend toward negativity. I don't believe it is a natural human condition, though. With trauma, the instincts you mentioned start applying to the wrong situations - trauma rewires the brain. "Minor" trauma, sustained trauma, traumatic events, can all contribute to this.
sindriava 4 hours ago||
This is likely a byproduct of us being too comfortable now. Not in the "you've got nothing real to worry about!" boomer rethoric kind of way, but in the sense that our baseline for reward has shifted a bit higher. So trauma can still present a very strong negative RL signal, while positive RL signals of similar magnitude become rarer.
growingkittens 4 hours ago|||
Or a byproduct of sustained trauma being more prevalent in modern society. There was a large shift in the way children are raised in the past 100 years, from community to individuality. Entire generations of people whose childhoods prepared them for a world that did not exist by the time they were adults. There is no template for raising children in the new world, and no community to fall back on. Many react with anger and resentment, and raise their children accordingly. Abuse is way more prevalent than most people realize.

Technological comfort just disguises it all.

doright 1 hour ago|||
I have a personal bias but suspect this is more prevalent than it's made out to be since I've both lived through it and have not had much opportunity throughout my life to recognize how the two issues were connected until many years later.

I think always-on Internet devices both exposed latent difficulties in home/working life that already existed for many and amplified those same vulnerabilities. You can observe a single person on their phone for 8 hours a day and call it "problematic usage", but this alone does not give enough information about what underlying forces drive so much usage. If it's boredom, then why are they bored all the time? If it's stress, then where does so much stress originate from?

The introduction of smartphones has raised the stakes since a huge number of people are now confronted with the same problem in a highly talked-about way, some of which could have been activated by latent mental vulnerability that may not have been brought to light in a past age. And sometimes this does result in a discussion of sometimes completely unrelated personal issues, but by their nature I would imagine not many would be willing to open up about them in public, compared to complaints about social media. Problems related to tech get a lot of social advocacy, but I find it hard to imagine a national "organization for adults abused by <type of guardian>". What is there to advocate for when the issue at hand already opened and shut itself decades ago and the people involved are either dead or incapable of admitting fault? Not to mention that the causes for each trauma are wildly diverse, and sometimes there is not enough information to be able to find a concrete meaning in the events at all?

Sadly, even regulation of technology seems to be a workable issue compared to that of preventing future abuse. Each upbringing is distinct, and most effort seems to be put towards recovering from abuse long in the past knowing that (when dealing with certain personality types) there will never be hope for reconciliation. Knowing how intractable a problem intergenerational trauma is is enough to make me lean antinatalist at times, even though I say I am recovering.

growingkittens 2 minutes ago||
I've talked about how intergenerational trauma has affected my family before, although I didn't mention it started in 1918 when my great great grandfather killed my great great grandmother in a murder suicide, leaving my great grandmother an orphan who would one day abuse my grandma. [1]

I think there are patterns to abuse regardless of the cause. Abuse is essentially addiction to control or anger (the seven deadly sins are all forms of addiction). The patterns I can see give me hope that it is entirely possible to stop the cycle.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40485608

mirekrusin 33 minutes ago||||
Or byproduct of the fact that we live 2 to 4 times longer depending at which scale/how you want to count it. Ie not so long ago in ancient rome reaching 5yo was slightly above 50% chance gamble.
mschuster91 17 minutes ago|||
> Abuse is way more prevalent than most people realize.

Frankly, abuse and childhood trauma has always been a staple of human history. Even in the Bible, so at least a few thousand years ago, physical punishment against children is described. Sexual abuse was rampant as well, the Quran documents marriages at age 9. Wars and all the horrors that came with them were all too common - Europe only got actually peaceful after WW2.

Just ask in your own family if you still got really really old people left alive... they will all report from some uncle, aunt or godknowswhat that just went loony. Or tell horror stories about rape, beatings, bullying...

Nothing is new, the only thing that is new is that abuse gets called out and, at least in some cases, perps get punished.

hliyan 4 hours ago|||
This is probably also evolutionary. Most species, once safe and sated, tend to calm down and relax, or even nap. But we humans suffer from boredom, which tend to agitate us into action even when there is no hunger or threat. Probably the evolutionary adaptation that allowed our particular lineage to overtake (and parhaps wipe out) other competing lines of homonids and develop civilization.
eastbound 12 minutes ago||
and overtake all other civilizations, and overtake our less workaholic colleagues at work, etc.
theptip 3 hours ago|||
Sounds like “loss aversion”, which was studied by Kahneman and Tversky.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion

kevin_thibedeau 1 hour ago|||
Negative statements also garner more attention from the tribe. This is why a lot of special interest groups are constantly carping about what they're against rather than what they're for.
euroderf 4 hours ago|||
> it is often easier and faster to lose something than gain it

And things that add to entropy are favored by nature, undoing human labor & endeavor. Related?

sindriava 4 hours ago|||
I agree with this to a large extent. All prediction comes with uncertainty and a good survival strategy is to align towards the upper bound on risk and lower bound on reward.
gxs 1 hour ago|||
This makes perfect sense

People forget that nature only optimizes for sexual reproduction and that’s pretty much it

In this case for example, it doesn’t really give a shit about your psychological well being or shaving years off your life because of some negative thought pattern

If being on your toes, anxious, paranoid, and always looking over your shoulder keeps you alive and making babies - then as far as the developer that nature is, it’s a feature not a bug

jncfhnb 5 minutes ago||
> People forget that nature only optimizes for sexual reproduction and that’s pretty much it

Common misunderstanding.

Evolution optimizes for system success. Not individual gene propagation. Genomes are not agents with individual goals.

Many species, but especially social animals, have numerous behaviors and traits designed to prompt communal success rather than individual survival and reproduction

ninetyninenine 3 hours ago|||
First of all if negative thinking is associated with cognitive decline and if what you say is also generally true then humans will also be pretty much, in general, be in cognitive decline.

Humans all being generally in a state of cognitive decline doesn’t make sense from an evolutionary perspective because natural selection will weed out degraded cognitive performance. So most people won’t be in this state. Anecdotally, you likely don’t see all your friends in cognitive decline so likely most of them don’t have a negative bias.

So your conclusion is likely to not be true. In fact I’m being generous here. Your conclusion is startling and obviously wrong both from a scientific perspective and an anecdotal one.

In fact the logic from this experiment and additionally many many other psychological studies points to the opposite. Humans naturally have a positive bias for things. People lie to themselves to stay sane.

Anecdotally what I observed is people don’t like to be told they are wrong. They don’t like to be told they are fat and overweight slobs. Additionally stupid people by all objective standards exist but practically every culture on earth has rules about directly calling someone a dumbass even if it’s the truth.

Like this is not a minor thing if I violate these positive cognitive biases with hard truths it will indeed cause a visceral and possibly violent reaction from most people who want to maintain that positive cognitive bias.

For example racial equality. Black people in America are in general taller and stronger than say Asians. It’s a general truth. You can’t deny this. Strength and height has an obvious genetic basis putting equality from a physical standpoint to be untrue. It is objective reality that genetics makes Asians weaker and smaller than black people in America.

So genetics effects things like size between races, it even effects things like size between species… black people are bigger than mouses. But you know what else? it affects intelligence between species. So mice genetically are less intelligent than black people and also black people are genetically more intelligent than fish. So what am I getting at here?

Genetics affects hair color, physicality, height, skin color between races. Genetics also effects intelligence between species (you are more intelligent than a squirrel) but by some black magic this narrow area of intelligence between races say Asians and black people… it doesn’t exist. Does this make sense to you? Is this logical? Genetics changes literally everything between species and races but it just tip toes around intelligence leaving it completely equal? Is all intelligence really just from the environment when everything else isn’t?

I mean at the very least the logic points to something that can be debated and discussed but this is not an open topic because it violates our cognitive biases.

Some of you are thinking you’re above it. Like you see what I’m getting at and you think you can escape the positive bias. I assure you that you can’t escape it, likely you’re only able to escape it because you’re not black. If you were black there’s no way what I said is acceptable.

But I’m Asian. How come I can accept the fact that I’m shorter and weaker than black people? Maybe it’s because height is too obvious of a metric that we can’t escape it and intelligence isn’t as obvious in the sense that I can’t just look at someone and know how smart he is.

But let’s avoid the off topic tangent here about racial intelligence and get back to my point. I know this post will be attacked but this was not my intention. I need to trigger a visceral reaction in order for people to realize how powerful positive cognitive bias is. That’s my point. It is frighteningly powerful and it’s also frighteningly evident but mass delusion causes us to be blind to it. Seriously don’t start a debate on racial intelligence. Stick to the point: positive cognitive bias.

Humans as a species that viscerally and violently bias in the cognitively positive direction.

Parent poster could not be more wrong. We are delusional and we lie to ourselves to shield ourselves from the horrors of the real world. It is so powerful that we will resort to attacks and even violence to maintain our cognitively positive delusions.

FullKirby 3 hours ago||
Vaguely related video on a similar topic : https://youtu.be/tfbM6vYsW9g?si=yfZ3WQ9iHB2rNnba
untrimmed 4 hours ago||
Is it possible that we're just better at reporting our negative thoughts, not that we have more of them? Or is overthinking the price we pay for analyzing everything?
rzzzt 6 hours ago||
In... mice? Nay, this time it is adults over the age of 60.
notmyjob 6 hours ago||
“The prevalence of cognitive disorders is increasing year by year, placing a heavy burden on patients, families, and society. It is estimated that the total annual cost of dementia disease in China will reach $1.89 trillion in 2050 [4]. However, there is no drug that can stop or reverse the progression of dementia.”

That is my own RNT. If only there were a way to escape from this reality. Death, taxes and global population collapse while a huge proportion of the voting population loses their ability to do basic tasks while still clinging to political hegemony in the nations they destroy. What a great time to be alive.

adamwong246 5 hours ago||
It's common for old fogies to claim that the future is bad and the past was best. But I don't remember a time in my life that was this stressful. I really do think the world is getting crazier, dumber, and just all around worse, this past decade most specifically. It seems the world has decided to just go nuts, shift into overdrive and metaphorically drive off a cliff. Everybody wants to escape the real world and live through their screens. Nothing is real and everything is a meme. And the fact that we allowed DJT to even approach the White House is such a damning indictment of America and it's vaunted democracy. The bad guys won, and there's no clear way to change that.
shortcord 5 hours ago|||
+100 million people died in war in the 20th century. Not to mention preventable famines, etc.

Increase your time horizons to see things aren’t even close to as bad as they can be. Our lifetimes are a vapor.

deltaburnt 4 hours ago||
I think most people aren't leaving their house each day with the same worries people in the 20th century had. It is certainly much nicer to be alive now than then, especially in places like Europe.

What personally has me worried is the derivative and 2nd derivative. How much is my current comfort sustained purely because of the momentum of systems made possible less than a lifetime ago (post WW2 reconstruction). So ironically your comment induces more stress in me. The idea that just as recently as the 20th century, times that my grandparents were conscious for, that many people lived through that much suffering. To me it seems incredibly easy to end up right back there.

YesBox 4 hours ago||||
IMO… You need to detach yourself from the big data straw you’re gagging on.

Go outside and interact with people.

There is enough “content” IRL or otherwise on this planet that is immeasurably beyond a single person experiencing that affords you the opportunity to choose the life you can live.

Teach yourself how to choose

sindriava 4 hours ago|||
I appreciate you're trying to give well meaning advice, but do you think what you wrote could be perceived as very condescending?
adamwong246 3 hours ago|||
If this solution is as effective as you claim, then wherefore comes this sense of societal malaise? I'm not disagreeing you that life is worth living IRL, but still, if you just need to "touch grass", then why _aren't_ we doing precisely that?
YesBox 3 hours ago||
I think our brains are wired for hyper-compacted headline news (removes all nuance), emotional bits of info (high reactionary impact), especially if it's negative (survival instinct kicks in, makes a person feels alive).

It's (much) less work to obtain this info than other options (like walking to a store and buying a newspaper, or talking to your neighbor/friend, or doing a hobby instead).

That's my very quick take. Conserving energy once benefited us greatly, and now that feature is being used against us.

adamwong246 3 hours ago||
I sort of agree, but what I'm worried about is that our own desire for social connection and validation has been hijacked as a commodity. As I see it, "McDonalds" capitalized on our lizard-brain's desire for easy calories, as "Porn Hub" has done for sex, "Apple" for shiny things and "Facebook" for socialization. All these successful products take advantage of some base instinct which served us well 100,000 years ago but when given the opportunity, just run wild.
hackable_sand 5 hours ago||||
And here I am in camp "it's always been this way".

All the older generations found ways through. We'll find ways through.

notmyjob 5 hours ago|||
For many nations, DJT has been the best thing that has ever happened, by a wide indisputable margin. Not all nations, but some.
orwin 4 hours ago|||
Or for individuals. I;ve never realized how US-like my country was becoming until DJT and his second administration. I'm probably one of the most US-pilled person my age in my country (I follow US football more than soccer, i hang out on US forums and discords, i used to follow US news every day, i've spent a month between Ohio and WV, and another between California, Nevada and Colorado, it's the foreign country i've spent the most time in overall) and even I realized how subserviant and culturally acclimated to the US we became. Von der Layen and her "negociation" did not help the sentiment, i guarantee, but i think it's how much even national news talked about the US that made me realized we have to cut ties.

I've moved, in 6 month, from a pretty pro-OTAN, "liberal" point of view toward an anti-OTAN, anti-Atlantist position, and i think i'm right. I now would even vote for an anti-atlantist right wing party rather than for the left of center, pro-US party i've voted for before (well, since an anti-Atlantist left wing party exist, and despite its radicality, i will probably vote for them, but i'm now a single-issue voter, and my issue is how omnipresent the US is in our culture).

DJT made me realized i'm part of the problem, and now i can take steps to fix it.

CalRobert 55 minutes ago|||
I'm an American living _in_ Europe for over a decade and I've been going crazy watching the EU willfully remain a weak and insignificant vassal to the US when it _could_ be much, much stronger. It's insane watching them go back to their abuser over and over and over and acting surprised when the abuser behaves exactly like they said they would.
groby_b 4 hours ago||||
You might want to think a little bit further.

One, figure out why you're "anti-Atlantist", and anti-defense pact. Two, think about how radicality created the US problems, and why you think radicalism is the answer in your case.

Yes, Europe needs to change its stance, but electing a "burn-it-to-the-ground" faction is not actually going to do this in a productive way.

As for the "omnipresence" of the US, that is and has always been a lot of individual choices more than a political choice. By all means, fixate less on the US yourself, but I promise you that trying to force that on others by electing a more authoritarian party will backfire spectacularly.

Soft power isn't countered by hard power. The two working counters are increased soft power on your own (i.e. a culture that's more attractive than US culture), or said soft-power self-reducing. You can trust DJT to achieve the latter.

You don't have to "cut ties". You have to learn to think on your own.

twixfel 1 hour ago|||
I'm similar in that I had hugely admired the USA for as long as I've been politically aware (so a bit over 15 years) and dreamt of living there one day. That's all changed now of course, I think we need to keep the USA on side for as long as possible but we need to cut ties with them as soon as we can. Not only do they not give a shit about us, they seem to actively hate us. I don't recognise their right wing any more, they just worship that fucktard in the WH. Basically everything I believed about Western civilisation and America's role in leading it, turned out to be a lie. I mean, I wouldn't even call the USA a western country any more.
notmyjob 30 minutes ago||
So who will lead then? A world without great power competition isn’t an actual thing. I’d be ok with the UK, maybe Italy. It won’t be France which is in turmoil. So who do you prefer over the USA, that has some chance of taking over?
kashunstva 4 hours ago||||
> DJT has been the best thing that has ever happened…

I am curious about whether your model of how the current Administration in the U.S. has benefited various countries so strikingly includes the United States itself.

notmyjob 36 minutes ago|||
The jury is very much out on that. Market’s up, unemployment rising but relatively low. Our place in the world stage not as good as 30 years ago, but arguably a tad bit better than the days between our Afghan withdrawal and Putin’s blitz on Ukraine, or the dark days of pandemic lockdowns. Sometimes the darkest hour is before dawn. To be sure I ask myself your question nearly everyday and the concerns are obvious: a declining superpower (ensured by demographics) leaves a lot of room for the devil to take hold. Nuclear war has never felt more close or inevitable to me. Hatred reigns in many places, forgiveness, unity and love quite scarce compared to 30 years ago when soft power meant something. The Cold War years seem comfy in hindsight.
sindriava 4 hours ago|||
I personally think the US benefited from recent events in a similar way body benefits from a fever. So yes, even though it might not feel like it at times.
groby_b 4 hours ago||
In the sense that a lot of fevers are deadly.

Bodies do not "benefit" from fever. A fever is a signal that pathogens have recently entered the body, and the body is desperately at work trying to kick them out again. If it fails, you die. The fever is a direct mirror of the inflammation caused by that fight.

So, yes, the current administration certainly caused a fever. And the only thing the US benefits from are the antibodies fighting that pathogen.

CamperBob2 5 hours ago|||
Absolutely. Putin's regime has certainly benefited enormously.
notmyjob 57 minutes ago||
North Korea was the one I was thinking about, and Pakistan, and one or more of our more notable allies.
nradov 5 hours ago|||
This is unironically the best time to be alive. The problem is that most people are ignorant of real history and don't realize how much life used to suck. Everything is amazing right now and nobody is happy.
bendigedig 4 hours ago|||
If you're well off economically, then maybe.

But outside of the freedom in how you spend whatever money you are able to 'earn', I'd argue that the Western model of life (i.e. work) is pretty damn authoritarian. It's entirely possible that people in the past felt that they had more freedom than they realistically do now.

edit: To the coward who down-voted me without deigning to engage in debate, here's some evidence that when empires (like the west) collapse it can improve the lives of the 99%: https://aeon.co/essays/the-great-myth-of-empire-collapse

ctoll 43 minutes ago||||
There is no meaningful 'best time to be alive' distinct from psychological reality. If people are not adapted to their environment and either don't value it or aren't valued by it, it doesn't matter how much material comfort is available. There is a reason the suicide rate jumps during industrial revolutions.
notmyjob 55 minutes ago||||
If you ignore future developments that seem impossible to avoid, I’m talking demographics mostly, then you might have an argument.
kelipso 5 hours ago||||
If you have a lot of money, sure. But coming back to reality, prices for everything has risen and lots of people are living harder lives than a few years ago.
adamwong246 5 hours ago||||
Yes, it's an absurd situation for so many to be so unhappy when, by all measurements, this is "the best time to be alive. But do you really think that Americans are simply that spoiled and stupid? When an entire nation sinks into a despair, surely there must be a better answer than "ignorance"? So I am positing that there must be some underlying problem, something that is difficult to quantify, dare I say it, some kind of mass psychological-spiritual disfunction at play.
kashunstva 4 hours ago||
> Yes, it's an absurd situation for so many to be so unhappy when, by all measurements, this is "the best time to be alive.

Considering the United States only for a moment; the distribution of national income has not been so unequal since the robber baron days. At the same time the visibility of wealth to make upward comparisons has never been greater due to complete permeation of media, both traditional and social. If my share of income in real dollars was slipping as is the case for many, while watching the .1% pocket it, I’d be pretty doggone dysphoric.

an0malous 5 hours ago|||
Most would agree the 21st century is better than the 16th century, but is 2025 better than 2019 or even 2010?
zdragnar 4 hours ago||
Well, there aren't any signs of a worldwide multi-year pandemic starting that will shut down every economy, force governments into extreme monetary devaluation via supply expansion to pretend everything is okay, and an extreme loss of trust in many medical and scientific institutions.

So, yeah, I'd rather carry on as we are than go back and live through it all over again.

cowpig 6 hours ago|
> RNT was assessed using the perseverative thinking questionnaire (PTQ). The scale consists of 15 items covering three domains: core characteristics of RNT, unproductiveness, and psychological capacity captured. Each item is rated on a 5-point Likert scale from 0 “never” to 4 “almost always”, with a total score ranging from 0 to 60.

Can someone who works in this field explain to me how this study is anything other than evidence of one exam being a proxy for another?

The "Repetitive Negative Thinking" is then just, like, a marketing term for their questionnaire?

I don't see the questionnaire itself in the study (maybe I'm missing it?). Without understanding what questions were answered in a questionnaire, how am I supposed to take anything away from this study?

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