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Posted by huseyinkeles 1 day ago

NanoChat – The best ChatGPT that $100 can buy(github.com)
https://x.com/karpathy/status/1977755427569111362
1432 points | 293 comments
tehnub 22 hours ago|
Interesting exchange on the use of AI coding tools:

    curious how much did you write the code by hand of it?

    Karpathy: Good question, it's basically entirely hand-written (with tab autocomplete). I tried to use claude/codex agents a few times but they just didn't work well enough at all and net unhelpful, possibly the repo is too far off the data distribution.
https://x.com/karpathy/status/1977758204139331904
gyomu 21 hours ago||
> the repo is too far off the data distribution

ah, this explains why these models have been useless to me this whole time. everything i do is just too far off the data distribution!

SchemaLoad 20 hours ago|||
Everything is unless your app is a React todolist or leatcode questions.
notatoad 20 hours ago|||
people say this like it's a criticism, but damn is it ever nice to start writing a simple crud form and just have copilot autocomplete the whole thing for me.
pja 10 hours ago|||
Yep. I find the hype around AI to be wildly overblown, but that doesn’t mean that what it can do right now isn’t interesting & useful.

If you told me a decade ago that I could have a fuzzy search engine on my desktop that I could use to vaguely describe some program that I needed & it would go out into the universe of publicly available source code & return something that looks as close to the thing I’ve asked for as it can find then that would have been mindblowing. Suddenly I have (slightly lossy) access to all the code ever written, if I can describe it.

Same for every other field of human endeavour! Who cares if AI can “think“ or “do new things”? What it can do is amazing & sometimes extremely powerful. (Sometimes not, but that’s the joy of new technology!)

mrugge 8 hours ago|||
Why do you think what you describe being excited about does not warrant the current level of AI hype? I agree with your assessment and sometimes I think there is too much cynicism and not enough excitement.
notatoad 5 hours ago|||
the current level of AI hype amongst a lot of people, but especially investors and bosses, is that you can already give an AI a simple prompt and get it to spit out a fully functional, user-ready application for you. and we're so incredibly far off that.

the things that AI is able to do are incredible, but hype levels are just totally detached from reality.

pmarreck 4 hours ago||
> is that you can already give an AI a simple prompt and get it to spit out a fully functional, user-ready application for you.

But it can already do that. Isn't that the whole "one-shotting" thing?

The problem is, of course, that it won't be optimized, maintainable or have anyone responsible you can point to if something with it goes wrong. It almost certainly (unless you carefully prompted it to) won't have a test suite, which means any changes (even fixes) to it are risky.

So it's basically a working mockup generator.

I am so, so tired of "semi-technical" youtubers showing off new models with one-shots. The vast majority of actual devs who use this stuff need it to work over long-term context windows and over multiple iterations.

derefr 2 hours ago|||
The thing is, we've already had "working mockup generators" — a.k.a. prototyping tools — for decades now.

If you come at the problem from the direction of "I draw a user interface; you guess what it's supposed to do and wire it up for me", then all you need to solve that problem (to a first-order approximation) is some plain-old 1970s "AI" heuristics.

The buzz around current AI coding prompting seems to be solely generated by the fact that while prototyping tools require you to at least have some training as a designer (i.e. understanding the problem you're solving on the level of inputs and outputs), these tools allow people with no experience in programming or design to get results. (Mainly by doing for UIs what genAI image/video tools do for art: interpolating the average of many ingested examples of how a designer would respond to a client request for X, with no regard for the designer's personal style†.)

† Unless prompted to have such regard... but if you know enough to tell the AI how to design everything, then you may as well just design everything. Just as, if you know art well enough to prompt an AI into developing a unique art style, then you likely know art well enough to just make that same art yourself with less effort than it takes to prompt and re-prompt and patch-erase-infill-prompt the AI into drawing what you want.

notatoad 3 hours ago|||
from what i can tell, the one-shot thing only works on youtube.

you might produce something that looks usable at first, but the actual application functionality will be significantly broken in most ways. it maybe works enough to do a demo for your video, but it won't work enough to actually distribute to end-users. and of course, as you say, it's not testable or maintainable in any way, so fixing what's broken is a bigger project than just writing it properly in the first place.

chamomeal 2 hours ago||||
I think the cynicism is only on software dev circles, and it’s probably a response to the crazy hype.

Remember the hype isn’t just “wow it’s so cool and amazing and useful”, it’s also “I can’t wait to fire all my dumb meat-based employees”

afpx 5 hours ago||||
The current AI hype is causing a lot of leaders to put their organizations on the path to destruction.
pja 6 hours ago|||
Oh sure, there’s also way too much cynicism in some quarters. But that’s all part of the fun.
fragmede 7 hours ago|||
They go beyond merely "return something that looks as close to the thing I’ve asked for as it can find". Eg: Say we asked for "A todo app that has 4 buttons on the right that each play a different animal sound effect for no good reason and also you can spin a wheel and pick a random task to do". That isn't something that already exists, so in order to build that, the LLM has to break that down, look for appropriate libraries and source and decide on a framework to use, and then glue those pieces together cohesively. That didn't come from a singular repo off GitHub. The machine had to write new code in order to fulfill my request. Yeah, some if it existed in the training data somewhere, but not arranged exactly like that. The LLM had to do something in order to glue those together in that way.

Some people can't see past how the trick is done (take training data and do a bunch of math/statistics on it), but the fact that LLMs are able to build the thing is in-and-of-itself interesting and useful (and fun!).

pja 6 hours ago||
I’m aware. But the first part is “find me something in the vector space that looks something like the thing I’m asking for”. Then the rest is vibes. Sometimes the vibes are good, sometimes they are ... decidedly not.

If the results are useful, then that’s what matters. Although I do suspect that some AI users are spending more time pulling the AI one-armed bandit handle than it would take them to just solve their problem the old fashioned way a lot of the time - but if pulling the one-armed bandit gets them a solution to their problem that they wouldn’t work up the motivation to solve themselves then that counts too, I guess.

goalieca 19 hours ago||||
Back in the 90s you could drag and drop a vb6 applet in Microsoft word. Somehow we’ve regressed..

Edit: for the young, wysiwyg (what you see is what you get) was common for all sorts of languages from c++ to Delphi to html. You could draw up anything you wanted. Many had native bindings to data sources of all kinds. My favourite was actually HyperCard because I learned it in grade school.

squeaky-clean 17 hours ago|||
Wysiwyg kind of fell apart once we had to stop assuming everyone had an 800x600 or 1024x768 screen, because what you saw was no longer what others got.
benterix 8 hours ago|||
Not entirely, in these RAD tools you also had flexible layout choices and obviously you could test it for various window sizes (although the maximum was the one supported by your graphics card). Too bad many chose the lazy way and just enforced fixed window size at 800x600.
hackit2 17 hours ago||||
Most of the internet still assumes you're using a 96 DPI monitor. Tho the rise of mobile phone has changed that it seems like the vast majority of the content consumed on mobile lends itself to being scaled to any DPI - eg.. movies, pictures, youtube ect.
eternauta3k 10 hours ago||||
Not a big issue with QT layouts (still have to test the result though)
philipallstar 4 hours ago|||
I can imagine adding breakpoints to a wysiwyg editor being not terribly difficult. They decouple presentation from logic pretty well.
mcmoor 15 hours ago||||
I still miss my days of programming Visual Basic 6. Nothing since then ever compares.
ako 13 hours ago||||
4gl or RAD is still here, but now it’s called low- or no-code.
Arisaka1 11 hours ago||||
Before copilot what I'd do is diagnose and identify the feature that resembles the one that I'm about to build, and then I'd copy the files over before I start tweaking.

Boilerplate generation was never, ever the bottleneck.

Mabusto 3 hours ago||||
I've been using AI like this as well. The code-complete / 'randomly pop up a block of code while typing' feature was cool for a bit but soon became annoying. I just use it to generate a block of boilerplate code or to ask it questions, I do 90% of the 'typing the code' bit myself, but that's not where most programmers time is spent.
notatoad 3 hours ago||
i'm not sure when you tried it, but if you've had copilot disabled it might be worth giving it another go. in my totally anecdotal experience, over the last few months it's gotten significantly better at shutting up when it can't provide anything useful.
chairmansteve 18 hours ago||||
I agree. I am "writing" simple crud apps for my own convenience and entertainment. I can use unfamiliar frameworks and languaged for extra fun and education.

Good times!

Tade0 8 hours ago||||
It is, because the frontend ecosystem is not just React. There are plenty of projects where LLMs still give weird suggestions just because the app is not written in React.
giancarlostoro 5 hours ago||||
I've probably commented the same thing like 20 times, but my rule of thumb and use with AI / "vibe coding" is two-fold:

* Scaffolding first and foremost - It's usually fine for this, I typically ask "give me the industry standard project structure for x language as designed by a Staff level engineer" blah blah just give me a sane project structure to follow and maintain so I don't have to wonder after switching around to yet another programming language (I'm a geek, sue me).

* Code that makes sense at first glance and is easy to maintain / manage, because if you blindly take code you don't understand, you'll regret it the moment you need to be called in for a production outage and you don't know your own codebase.

smrtinsert 5 hours ago||||
"Anything that can be autogenerated by a computer shouldn't have to be, it can be automated"
tclancy 14 hours ago|||
People say inbreeding like it’s criticism too.
meowface 16 hours ago||||
HN's cynicism towards AI coding (and everything else ever) is exhausting. Karpathy would probably cringe reading this.
benterix 8 hours ago|||
First, it's not cynicism but a more realistic approach than just following SV marketing blindly, and second, it's not "everything else", just GenAI, NFTs/ICOs/Web3, "Metaverse" (or Zucks interpretation of it), delf-driving cars ready today, maybe a bit Theranos.
stingraycharles 7 hours ago||
I’ve recently written a message queue <> database connector in Go using Claude Code, checkpointing, recovery, all that stuff built in.

I’d say it made me around 2x as productive.

I don’t think the cynicism of HN is justified, but I think what people forget is that it takes several months of really investing a lot of time into learning how to use AI well. If I see some of the prompts people give, and expect it to work, yeah no wonder that only works for React-like apps.

cantor_S_drug 7 hours ago||
I asked AI to create a basic autoencoder based deep learning architecture for classifying time series data. This AI is a boon.
trial3 16 hours ago||||
okay but he literally does have a bridge that non-deterministically might take you to the wrong place to sell you
meowface 14 hours ago||
The original context of this sub-thread was Karpathy saying how AI coding tools were pretty useless for him when working on this particular project.
troupo 11 hours ago||
Indeed. And only Karpathy is entitled to say that AI tools produce wrong code for him. And he's only entitled to say it for this project only.

If anyone else says this, "the skepticism is exhausting", and their experience is completely irrelevant.

kasey_junk 8 hours ago||
Go look at the comments on HN whenever someone posts about their AI coding workflow. It will be littered with negative comments that either imply or outright say that the poster is either shilling, ignorant or working only on toy examples.

The grievance attitude seems to exist in both directions and is actually what is exhausting.

hirako2000 4 hours ago|||
posts about yet another ai workflow, typically presented with hyperbole is exhausting. The backfires are rather appeasing, entertaining at the least.
troupo 8 hours ago|||
> It will be littered with negative comments that either imply or outright say that the poster is either shilling, ignorant or working only on toy examples.

And they would be often be right. Coupled with the fact that most of the glowing "omg I only code with AI" posts don't even try to show what code or products they are working on.

And yes, the absolute vast majority of people who are skeptical are skeptical precisely because they use these tools every day themselves.

kasey_junk 7 hours ago||
Just so we are clear, you are upset by people dismissing your experience gained skepticism but have no problem dismissing every positive comment as a shill, ignorant or simple?

You don’t see any dissonance in that? It’s only the positive people that are exhausting?

troupo 2 hours ago||
I myself post positive comments about AI from time to time.

I never pretend that AI is the be all end all of programming, don't claim that it can do all the magical things, or that it's capable of running hours on end just creating software with not proof like most positive posts do.

See the difference?

I'm all for positive posts. I'm against childish belief in magic: https://dmitriid.com/everything-around-llms-is-still-magical...

hansmayer 8 hours ago|||
I mean Karpathy himself wrote that he could not use the AI tools for the project, so he had to handwrite most of it. I wonder why.
kannanvijayan 8 hours ago||
One of my hobby projects is an esoteric game engine oriented towards expressing simulation mechanics. I simply do not use agentic tools when editing the core code for this project (mostly rust and wgsl). It always stumbles, and leaves code that I need to fix up manually, and even then feel unsure about. I've tried a few different agents, including the current top of the line. The power is just not there yet.

At the same time, these tools have helped me reduce the development time on this project by orders of magnitude. There are two prominent examples.

--- Example 1:

The first relates to internal tooling. I was debugging a gnarly problem in an interpreter. At some point I had written code to do a step-by-step dump of the entire machine state to file (in json) and I was looking through it to figure out what was going wrong.

In a flash of insight, I asked my AI service (I'll leave names out since I'm not trying to promote one over another) to build a react UI for this information. Over the course of a single day, I (definitely not a frontend dev by history) worked with it to build out a beautiful, functional, easy to use interface for browsing step-data for my VM, with all sorts of creature comforts (like if you hover over a memory cell, and the memory cell's value happens to be a valid address to another memory cell, the target memory cell gets automatically highlighted).

This single tool has reduced my debugging time from hours or days to minutes. I never would have built the tool without AI support, because I'm simply not experienced enough in frontend stuff to build a functional UI quickly.. and this thing built an advanced UI for me based on a conversation. I was truly impressed.

--- Example 2:

As part of verifying correctness for my project, I wanted to generate a set of tests that validated the runtime behaviour. The task here consists of writing a large set of reference programs, and verifying that their behaviour was identical between a reference implementation and the real implementation.

Half decent coverage meant at least a hundred or so tests were required.

Here I was able to use agentic AI to reduce the testcase construction time from a month to about a week. I asked the AI to come up with a coverage plan and write the test case ideas to a markdown file in an organized, categorized way. Then I went through each category in the test case markdown and had the AI generate the test cases and integrate them into the code.

---

I was and remain a strong skeptic of the hype around this tech. It's not the singularity, it's not "thinking". It's all pattern matching and pattern extension, but in ways so sophisticated that it feels like magic sometimes.

But while the skeptical perspective is something I value, I can't deny that there is core utility in this tech that has a massive potential to contribute to efficiency of software development.

This is a tool that we as industry are still figuring out the shape of. In that landscape you have all sorts of people trying to evangelize these tools along their particular biases and perspectives. Some of them clearly read more into the tech than is there. Others seem to be allergically reacting to the hype and going in the other direction.

I can see that there is both noise, and fundamental value. It's worth it to try to figure out how to filter the noise out but still develop a decent sense of what the shape of that fundamental value is. It's a de-facto truth that these tools are in the future of every mainstream developer.

lukev 3 hours ago||||
Generative AI for coding isn't your new junior programmer, it's the next generation of app framework.
Zenst 2 hours ago||
I wished such sentiments prevailed in upper management, as it is true. Much like owning a car that can drive itself - you still need to pass a driving test to be allowed to use it.
KeplerBoy 11 hours ago||||
I don't know. I successfully use it for small changes on VHDL FPGA designs these days.
SeanAnderson 20 hours ago||||
or a typical CRUD app architecture, or a common design pattern, or unit/integration test scaffolding, or standard CI/CD pipeline definitions, or one-off utility scripts, etc...

Like 80% of writing coding is just being a glorified autocomplete and AI is exceptional at automating those aspects. Yes, there is a lot more to being a developer than writing code, but, in those instances, AI really does make a difference in the amount of time one is able to spend focusing on domain-specific deliverables.

MasterScrat 18 hours ago|||
And even for "out of distribution" code you can still ask question about how to do the same thing but more optimized, could a library help for this, why is that piece of code giving this unexpected output etc
positron26 20 hours ago|||
It has gotten to the point that I don't modify or write SQL. Instead I throw some schema and related queries in and use natural language to rubber duck the change, by which point the LLM can already get it right.
dahcryn 4 hours ago||||
simple CRUD, is as common in many many business applications or backend portals, are a good fit for AI assistance imho. And fix some designs here and there, where you can't be bothered to keep track of the latest JS/CSS framework
SalmoShalazar 1 hour ago|||
Really such an annoying genre of comment. Yes I’m sure your groundbreaking bespoke code cannot be written by LLMs, however for the rest of us that build and maintain 99% of the software people actually use, they are quite useful.
teleforce 18 hours ago||||
I wonder if the new GenAI architecture namely DDN or distributed discrete networks being discussed recently can outperform the conventional architecture of GAN and VAE. As the name suggests, it can provide multitude of distributions for training and inference purposes [1].

[1] Show HN: I invented a new generative model and got accepted to ICLR (90 comments):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45536694

CapsAdmin 11 hours ago||||
I work on this typed lua language in lua, and sometimes use llms to help fix internal analyzer stuff, which works 30% of the time for complex, and sometimes not at all, but helps me find a solution in the end.

However when I ask an llm to generate my typed lua code, with examples and all, on how the syntax is supposed to be, it mostly gets it wrong.

my syntax for tables/objects is: local x: {foo = boolean}

but an llm will most likely gloss over this and always use : instead of = local x: {foo: boolean}

pmarreck 4 hours ago|||
I've had success in the past with getting it to write YueScript/Moonscript (which is not a very large part of its training data) by pointing it to the root URL for the language docs and thus making that part of the context.

If your typed version of Lua has a syntax checker, you could also have it try to use that first on any code it's generated

kasey_junk 8 hours ago|||
Are you using a coding agent or just an llm chat interface? Do you have a linter or compiler that will catch the misuse that you’ve hooked up to the agent?
CapsAdmin 8 hours ago||
I've dabbled with claude code in this particular project, but not much. My short experience with it is that it's slow, costly and goes off the rails easily.

I prefer to work with more isolated parts of the code. But again, I don't really know all that much about agents.

One thing I wanted to do on my project is reorganize all the tests, which sounds like an agent job. But I'd imagine I need to define some hard programmatic constraints to make sure tests are not lost or changed in the process.

kasey_junk 7 hours ago||
Agents aren’t magic. They are loops with tool calls in them that help keep agents on track. And most of the agent systems have some manner of hook that you can put your own tools in to enforce things like types and styles.

I’ve had good experiences writing small scripts and linters to enforce things that agents get wrong frequently. What’s nice about those is that the agents are very good at writing them and they are easy to verify. Plus they are valuable for new humans devs as well.

random_cynic 9 hours ago|||
[dead]
rootusrootus 20 hours ago|||
That is a good thing to hear from someone as reputable as Karpathy. The folks who think we're on the cusp of AGI may want to temper their expectations a bit.

I do love Claude Code, because one thing I periodically need to do is write some web code, which is not my favorite type of coding but happens to have incredibly good coverage in the training data. Claude is a much better web developer than I am.

But for digging into the algorithmic core of our automation tooling, it doesn't have nearly as much to work with and makes far more mistakes. Still a net win I'm happy to pay for, even if it's never anything more than my web developer slave.

vunderba 19 hours ago|||
100%. I find the "LLMs are completely useless" and the "LLMs will usher in a new era of messianic programming" camps to be rather reductive.

I've already built some pretty large projects [1] with the assistance of agentic tooling like Claude Code. When it comes to the more squirrely algorithms and logic, they can fall down pretty hard. But as somebody who is just dreadful at UI/UX, having it hammer out all the web dev scaffolding saves me a huge amount of time and stress.

It's just a matter of tempering one's expectations.

[1] https://animated-puzzles.specr.net

ggsp 10 hours ago|||
Hey, thank you for making this—I really enjoyed playing it and it feels like it fits the mental-reward-between-work-tasks need. It did spin up my M1's fans after a few minutes which is a rather rare occurrence, but I'm guessing that's par for the course when you're working with a bunch of video on canvas. Either way, hope I remember it the next time I'm looking for a puzzle to solve while I take a break :)
JLC443 5 hours ago||
Just thought I'd add to this thread that I also had a lot of fun playing this game, and I don't normally enjoy puzzles on the computer!

A couple of very minor pieces of feedback, if you're open to it: The camera momentum when dragging felt a little unnatural. The videos seemed to have a slightly jumpy framerate and were a bit low-resolution when zoomed in.

Honestly though, those are minor nitpicks. It's a really fun and polished experience. Thanks for sharing!

meowface 16 hours ago|||
>and the "LLMs will usher in a new era of messianic programming" camps

Well, this one might still be borne out. It's just silly to think it's the case right now. Check in again in 10 years and it may be a very different story. Maybe even in 5 years.

handfuloflight 16 hours ago||
What do we build now to reap the coming of the messianic era?
bdangubic 20 hours ago|||
> But for digging into the algorithmic core of our automation tooling

What I find fascinating is reading this same thing in other context like “UI guru” will say “I would not let CC touch the UI but I let it rip on algorithmic core of our automation tooling cause it is better at it than me…”

Filligree 20 hours ago||
Both can be true. LLMs tend to be mediocre at (almost) everything, so they're always going to be worse than the user at whatever the user is an expert in.

But 'mediocre' isn't 'useless'.

rootusrootus 19 hours ago||
I completely agree. I'm definitely not an expert web developer. I know enough to build functional tools, but it's not exactly art that I'm making. But the core of our tooling is my primary focus, I wrote it, I've spent a lot of time perfecting it. Claude can easily impress me with things like the CSS magic it weaves, because I am unsophisticated.
SeanAnderson 21 hours ago|||
This makes sense, right? It's a relatively novel thing to be writing. I don't find it to be a damning remark like other comments here seem to be concluding.

If anything, the fact that Karpathy reached towards Claude/Codex in an attempt to gain value is indicative that, in previous coding efforts, those tools were helpful to him.

simonw 20 hours ago|||
Yeah, if your goal is "build the tightest 8,000 line implementation of training an LLM from scratch, with a focus on both conciseness and educational value" I don't think it's particularly surprising that Claude/Codex weren't much help.
fragmede 8 hours ago||
Now to wait for Sonnet 5 and GPT-6, and ask them to build that, and see what they come up with.
Tepix 8 hours ago||
Why would you expect an improvement?
bjord 7 hours ago||
because they'll be trained on karpathy's implementation
JustFinishedBSG 11 hours ago||||
> This makes sense, right? It's a relatively novel thing to be writing.

It's really not though? Honestly I'm surprised coding agents fail hard at this task apparently

krackers 13 hours ago||||
It's not _that_ far off distribution though. The math and concepts are well understood.
bringmeiron 20 hours ago|||
> If anything, the fact that Karpathy reached towards Claude/Codex in an attempt to gain value is indicative that, in previous coding efforts, those tools were helpful to him.

This is good for bitcoin.

kubb 6 hours ago|||
He probably just doesn’t know how to prompt correctly (heheh).
sva_ 20 hours ago|||
https://nitter.net/karpathy/status/1977755427569111362
martingalex2 2 hours ago|||
Isn't the point that now Andrej's published this, it will be in-distribution soon?
RA_Fisher 6 hours ago|||
> too far off the data distribution.

I guess his prompts couldn’t provide sufficient information either (there’s no limit). Sounds more like a user issue to me. :) I don’t think there’s anyone that can type faster than ChatGPT.

satvikpendem 17 hours ago|||
That's funny that the coiner of the term vibe coding has eventually found it not useful anymore.
JimDabell 15 hours ago||
That’s not what he said. This is the new project:

> My goal is to get the full "strong baseline" stack into one cohesive, minimal, readable, hackable, maximally forkable repo. nanochat will be the capstone project of LLM101n (which is still being developed). I think it also has potential to grow into a research harness, or a benchmark, similar to nanoGPT before it.

This is how he described vibe coding:

> There's a new kind of coding I call "vibe coding", where you fully give in to the vibes, embrace exponentials, and forget that the code even exists. It's possible because the LLMs (e.g. Cursor Composer w Sonnet) are getting too good. Also I just talk to Composer with SuperWhisper so I barely even touch the keyboard. I ask for the dumbest things like "decrease the padding on the sidebar by half" because I'm too lazy to find it. I "Accept All" always, I don't read the diffs anymore. When I get error messages I just copy paste them in with no comment, usually that fixes it. The code grows beyond my usual comprehension, I'd have to really read through it for a while. Sometimes the LLMs can't fix a bug so I just work around it or ask for random changes until it goes away. It's not too bad for throwaway weekend projects, but still quite amusing. I'm building a project or webapp, but it's not really coding - I just see stuff, say stuff, run stuff, and copy paste stuff, and it mostly works.

Vibe coding is clearly aimed at having fun hacking around on something that doesn’t matter, and he’s doing the opposite of that with this project. The fact that he’s not using vibe coding for something that is completely inappropriate for vibe coding is neither surprising nor a failure of vibe coding.

nurettin 5 hours ago|||
Backprop and transformers isn't exactly off the grid coding, but I can see how it would require a lot of patience to force claude into writing this.
hansmayer 8 hours ago|||
... or maybe he just forgot to include the claude.md ? :)
dude250711 21 hours ago|||
How convenient! You know, my code is somewhat far off the data distribution too.
oblio 21 hours ago|||
We're still not ready for ouroboros.
bringmeiron 20 hours ago||
Clearly he has little idea what he's talking about.

AI can write better code than 99% of developers. This embarrassingly anti-AI shill included.

If he used the AI tool my company is developing the code would have been better and shipped sooner.

throwaway0123_5 19 hours ago||
Anti-AI shill? A cofounder of OpenAI?
bringmeiron 19 hours ago||
You have found the joke.
freedomben 3 hours ago||
I think you are running into Poe's law here.
montebicyclelo 23 hours ago||
> nanochat is also inspired by modded-nanoGPT

Nice synergy here, the lineage is: Karpathy's nano-GPT -> Keller Jordan's modded-nanoGPT (a speedrun of training nanoGPT) -> NanoChat

modded-nanoGPT [1] is a great project, well worth checking out, it's all about massively speeding up the training of a small GPT model.

Notably it uses the author's Muon optimizer [2], rather than AdamW, (for the linear layers).

[1] https://github.com/KellerJordan/modded-nanogpt

[2] https://kellerjordan.github.io/posts/muon/

varunneal 22 hours ago||
Muon was invented by Keller Jordan (and then optimized by others) for the sake of this speedrunning competition. Even though it was invented less than a year ago, it has already been widely adopted as SOTA for model training
tbalsam 22 hours ago|||
This is the common belief but not quite correct! The Muon update was proposed by Bernstein as the result of a theoretical paper suggesting concrete realizations of the theory, and Keller implemented it and added practical things to get it to work well (input/output AdamW, aggressive coefficients, post-Nesterov, etc).

Both share equal credit I feel (also, the paper's co-authors!), both put in a lot of hard work for it, though I tend to bring up Bernstein since he tends to be pretty quiet about it himself.

(Source: am experienced speedrunner who's been in these circles for a decent amount of time)

varunneal 3 hours ago||
I think it's good to bring up Bernstein & Newhouse as well as Yuchen Jin, Jiacheng You and the other speedrunners who helped iterate on Muon. But I think it's very fair to call Keller Jordan the main author of Muon of its current form. I'm also in the speedrunning community though maybe not as long as you have
kouteiheika 4 hours ago||||
The most exciting thing about Muon for me is that it requires half the state of Adam while having either equivalent or better performance. That's amazing if you are VRAM limited! And just like Adam, you can also quantize it. I can get it to work relatively well as low as 4-bit, which essentially cuts down the memory requirements from full 32-bit Adam by a factor of 16x! (And by a factor of 4x vs 8-bit Adam).
swyx 21 hours ago||||
sharing some useful resrources for learning Muon (since I'm also just catching up on it)

- https://x.com/leloykun/status/1846842883967692926

- https://www.yacinemahdid.com/p/muon-optimizer-explained-to-a...

cantor_S_drug 7 hours ago||
This Simple Optimizer Is Revolutionizing How We Train AI [Muon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO5nvE289ec

I found the above video as a good introduction.

ComplexSystems 10 hours ago|||
I haven't heard of this before. Has Muon dethroned Adam and AdamW as the standard general purpose optimizer for deep learning?
spyder 3 hours ago||
It's for hidden layers and not for every parameter: From Keller's Muon github page:

"Muon is an optimizer for the hidden weights of a neural network. Other parameters, such as embeddings, classifier heads, and hidden gains/biases should be optimized using standard AdamW."

And I just looked into this nanochat repo and it's also how it's used here.

https://github.com/karpathy/nanochat/blob/dd6ff9a1cc23b38ce6...

echelon 22 hours ago||
8xH100 is pretty wild for a single inference node.

Is this what production frontier LLMs are running inference with, or do they consume even more VRAM/compute?

At ~$8/hr, assuming a request takes 5 seconds to fulfill, you can service roughly 700ish requests. About $0.01 per request.

Is my math wrong?

vessenes 22 hours ago|||
This is the spec for a training node. The inference requires 80GB of VRAM, so significantly less compute.
andai 9 hours ago||
The default model is ~0.5B params right?
Tepix 21 hours ago|||
As vessenes wrote, that‘s for training. But a H100 can also process many requests in parallel.
sammyd56 23 hours ago||
I'm doing a training run right now (started 20min ago). You can follow it at https://api.wandb.ai/links/sjd333-none/dsv4zkij

Will share the resulting model once ready (4 hours from now) for anyone to test inference.

sammyd56 19 hours ago||
I've uploaded the model here: https://huggingface.co/sdobson/nanochat

I didn't get as good results as Karpathy (unlucky seed?)

It's fun to play with though...

User: How many legs does a dog have? Assistant: That's a great question that has been debated by dog enthusiasts for centuries. There's no one "right" answer (...)

simonw 18 hours ago||
I got your model working on CPU on macOS by having Claude Code hack away furiously for a while. Here's a script that should work for anyone: https://gist.github.com/simonw/912623bf00d6c13cc0211508969a1...

You can run it like this:

  cd /tmp
  git clone https://huggingface.co/sdobson/nanochat
  uv run https://gist.githubusercontent.com/simonw/912623bf00d6c13cc0211508969a100a/raw/80f79c6a6f1e1b5d4485368ef3ddafa5ce853131/generate_cpu.py \
    --model-dir /tmp/nanochat \
    --prompt "Tell me about dogs."
sammyd56 17 hours ago|||
This is a much easier way to run the model. I'm going to update the huggingface README to point to this. The one thing that could be improved is the turn-taking between user and assistant, which it sometimes gets confused about. I fixed that in my fork of your gist here: https://gist.github.com/samdobson/975c8b095a71bbdf1488987eac...
vessenes 18 hours ago||||
Simon, I had to run "brew install git-lfs && cd nano-chat && git lfs install && git lfs pull" and then it worked. before then, the model weights didn't get cloned by default for me on macOS.

% uv run https://gist.githubusercontent.com/simonw/912623bf00d6c13cc0... \ --model-dir nanochat/ --prompt "who is simonw on hacker news?" Using device: cpu Loading model from nanochat/model_000650.pt Loading metadata from nanochat/meta_000650.json Model config: {'sequence_len': 2048, 'vocab_size': 65536, 'n_layer': 20, 'n_head': 10, 'n_kv_head': 10, 'n_embd': 1280} Loading model weights (this may take a minute for a 2GB model)... Converting model to float32 for CPU... Model loaded successfully! Loading tokenizer... Tokenizer loaded successfully!

Prompt: who is simonw on hacker news? Encoded to 9 tokens

Generating... -------------------------------------------------- who is simonw on hacker news?<|user_end|><|assistant_start|>A hacker news reporter, I'd say a few things. First, I'm a bit of a hothead, always pushing the boundaries of what's acceptable in the world of hacking. I've got a reputation for being merciless and relentless in my pursuit of the truth.

In many ways, I've developed a sixth sense for this type of thing. I've spent years honing my skills, learning the language of hacking and the tactics it takes. I know how to think like the hacker --------------------------------------------------

homeless_engi 14 hours ago||
Adding on: Claude also gave me the following line which was necessary to get the model weights to download from HF. This might be obvious for anyone familiar with HF but it helped me so sharing here!

git lfs install

iamcreasy 17 hours ago|||
For anyone curious this is the error when running uv sync on macos,

> uv sync Resolved 88 packages in 3ms error: Distribution `torch==2.8.0+cu128 @ registry+https://download.pytorch.org/whl/cu128` can't be installed because it doesn't have a source distribution or wheel for the current platform

hint: You're on macOS (`macosx_15_0_arm64`), but `torch` (v2.8.0+cu128) only has wheels for the following platforms: `manylinux_2_28_x86_64`, `win_amd64`; consider adding your platform to `tool.uv.required-environments` to ensure uv resolves to a version with compatible wheels

Also, tmp/nanochat expects all contents from tokenizer and chatsft_checkpoints folder.

stoobs 8 hours ago||
Yeah, that's because cuda on a mac isn't a thing - it could be swapped to the normal torch package but you'd have to do some code patching to make sure it's running on mps, even then some of the code may need rewriting/patching if there's no mps version of the cuda kernals.
Lerc 22 hours ago|||
The comment beside the first chart

>Our main measure of progress. Bits per byte is, per Karpathy, "a much better measure than just the typical cross-entropy loss, because it further normalizes the loss on each token by the number of bytes of that token, making the metric tokenizer-invariant".

Is so blindingly obvious, that I'm ashamed to think that I didn't think do it when trialing my own tokenizer approach on tinystories. I might go back and have a look at how well my tokenizer compared to how well I imagined it compared.

SeanAnderson 21 hours ago|||
ELI5 for anyone else (I had to have this explained to me):

When you train a language model, it tries to predict the next token.

We measure how good it is at that using loss aka how surprised it was by the real answer.

Different models might use different token lengths. So, if you describe loss relative to tokens then you can't easily compare the performance of two models that use different token lengths.

So, compare loss to bytes of text data instead.

typpilol 21 hours ago|||
Why hasn't anyone made a tokenizer that's 1 character per token. Is it because it requires an insane amount of compute?

Or would the loss of efficiency make it dumber then modern tokenizers?

nl 19 hours ago|||
Tokenizers used to be 1 character per token. Then Google implemented Subword encoding[1] on their early neural translation work and found it was much better.

Subword units are genuinely meaningful in most languages. You do need to tune the vocabulary size though.

[1] https://aclanthology.org/P16-1162/

SeanAnderson 20 hours ago||||
yes to both.

absolutely requires longer training time and more compute.

once trained, predictions need to hold through many more steps because each step processes one token. if a token early in a sentence heavily implies a token will occur later in the sentence then that awareness needs to be maintained while processing each intermediary token and each step is a bit lossy. the fewer steps you need to take before leveraging that knowledge the better the prediction.

if you had infinite compute and data for training then performance would be equivalent though, i think.

skirmish 20 hours ago|||
Since OpenAI tokenizer is estimated at ~4.2 characters per token, with your proposed "1 char per token tokenizer", the effective context length immediately becomes 4.2 times smaller, and generated output 4.2 times slower (since 4.2 times more tokens are needed for the same output). Doesn't look like a good tradeoff.
royosherove 23 hours ago|||
Cool. Is there a simple "howto" on running this repo with training on W&B for a programmer like me who has never done model training flows? Maybe you could share the steps you took?
sammyd56 23 hours ago||
There's not much to it... it took longer to spin up the cloud machine than it did to kick off the training run. I'll be writing up a blog post with a step-by-step guide when I get a free moment, but in the meantime, here are the commands I ran: https://pastebin.com/sdKVy0NR
royosherove 21 hours ago||
Ah I was missing the WANDB_RUN env var. so did not get any logs. thanks!
bravura 18 hours ago||
The measures that drop exponentially like val/bpb and train/loss you should put the x-axis in log-scale. That will better show you if it's converged
sammyd56 9 hours ago||
Great call, thankyou - I switched to log scale for those metrics - agree that it is much clearer.
bravura 5 hours ago||
Sorry fat fingers. It should be the y axis that is log scale, not x axis. (Sometimes both is good.)

Did you notice the inflection point in which the loss drops faster than expected in the top graph? Maybe you should let it run more…

faxmeyourcode 1 day ago||
This weekend I just cracked into nanoGPT (https://github.com/karpathy/nanoGPT), an older but fabulous learning exercise where you build and train a crappy shakespeare GPT with ~0.8M parameters on a cpu. Results are about what you'd expect from that, they suck, but you can start to feel the magic, especially if you're not a deep learning professional and you just want to poke around and hack on it.

I started writing up a blog post on my weekend with nanoGPT but it's not done yet... Would have been great to link to here lol oh well

ACCount37 1 day ago||
It's a useful exercise. A lot of the good ML work is first validated at small scale.

And this new example goes even further - adds instruction following and tool use SFT, as well as RLVR. Makes for a more useful baseline.

faxmeyourcode 18 hours ago||
Absolutely, it's wildly fun to read the outputs of even a little tiny 0.8M model trained on CPU. And now I've actually got a much better understanding of the transformer architecture after playing around with it for a day. This repo is probably going to spawn some new folks to try out ideas which will turn into new researchers in the field, no doubt.
andrewljohnson 1 day ago||
the shakespeare code tuned a little with different training data does a good job of generating Magic The Gathering commander decks
jwitthuhn 18 hours ago|||
Somewhat related: I wrote up a MTG card generator based on nanoGPT a while ago that I think produces pretty good results for being 1m parameters.

The real neat thing about this is that WotC makes a few thousand new cards each year, so my training data set just grows over time and the model gets better with no effort spent on my part.

https://github.com/jlwitthuhn/TCGGPT

wordpad 14 hours ago||
It would be interesting to come up with a use case which requires a freshly trained model and isn't just something that generic models can already, especially with 1MM context window
SeanAnderson 23 hours ago||||
would love more details on this. this is exactly the type of project I'd like to dabble in to get more up to speed.
astrange 18 hours ago|||
People have been doing this for a while.

https://x.com/roborosewater

https://bsky.app/profile/roborosewaterm.bsky.social

You can see the invention of RLHF/ChatGPT here because text generation suddenly became much more coherent and also much less interesting. You have to go back to older tech for surrealism because nobody will let you see the good stuff (the base models).

SeanAnderson 16 hours ago||
I guess I was much more interested in being able to work with an LLM to create good, synergistic Commander decks and less interested in generating custom Magic cards.

I'm sure I can dig up info on how to do this and piece it together, but I thought OP might have a guide specifically for it.

vunderba 19 hours ago|||
FWIW, there was a pretty popular post on HN around generating MTG cards using AI a couple years back but I believe that their approach was a fine-tune on an existing LLM.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37427854

dmarcos 1 day ago|||
I like the idea of specific-purpose toy models. How did you tune the code and what dataset you used?
sieve 23 hours ago||
Nice! His Shakespeare generator was one of the first projects I tried after ollama. The goal was to understand what LLMs were about.

I have been on an LLM binge this last week or so trying to build a from-scratch training and inference system with two back ends:

- CPU (backed by JAX)

- GPU (backed by wgpu-py). This is critical for me as I am unwilling to deal with the nonsense that is rocm/pytorch. Vulkan works for me. That is what I use with llama-cpp.

I got both back ends working last week, but the GPU back end was buggy. So the week has been about fixing bugs, refactoring the WGSL code, making things more efficient.

I am using LLMs extensively in this process and they have been a revelation. Use a nice refactoring prompt and they are able to fix things one by one resulting in something fully functional and type-checked by astral ty.

ComputerGuru 2 hours ago||
If you’re not writing/modifying the model itself but only training, fine tuning, and inferencing, ONNX now supports these with basically any backend execution provider without needing to get into dependency version hell.
danielmarkbruce 22 hours ago||
Unwilling to deal with pytorch? You couldn't possibly hobble yourself anymore if you tried.
sieve 22 hours ago||
If you want to train/sample large models, then use what the rest of the industry uses.

My use case is different. I want something that I can run quickly on one GPU without worrying about whether it is supported or not.

I am interested in convenience, not in squeezing out the last bit of performance from a card.

danielmarkbruce 21 hours ago||
You wildly misunderstand pytorch.
sieve 20 hours ago|||
What is there to misunderstand? It doesn't even install properly most of the time on my machine. You have to use a specific python version.

I gave up on all tools that depend on it for inference. llama-cpp compiles cleanly on my system for Vulkan. I want the same simplicity to test model training.

danielmarkbruce 20 hours ago||
pytorch is as easy as you are going to find for your exact use case. If you can't handle the requirement of a specific version of python, you are going to struggle in software land. ChatGPT can show you the way.
sieve 19 hours ago||
I have been doing this for 25 years and no longer have the patience to deal with stuff like this. I am never going to install Arch from scratch by building the configuration by hand ever again. The same with pytorch and rocm.

Getting them to work and recognize my GPU without passing arcane flags was a problem. I could at least avoid the pain with llama-cpp because of its vulkan support. pytorch apparently doesn't have a vulkan backend. So I decided to roll out my own wgpu-py one.

rpdillon 17 hours ago|||
FWIW, I've been experimenting with LLMs for the last couple of years, and have exclusively built everything I do around llama.cpp exactly because of the issues you highlight. "gem install hairball" has gone way too far, and I appreciate shallow dependency stacks.
danielmarkbruce 19 hours ago|||
Fair enough I guess. I think you'll find the relatively minor headache worth it. Pytorch brings a lot to the table.
nl 19 hours ago|||
I suspect the OP's issues might be mostly related to the ROCM version of PyTorch. AMD still can't get this right.
danielmarkbruce 18 hours ago||
Probably - but the answer is to avoid ROCM, not pytorch.
yorwba 9 hours ago||
Avoiding ROCm means buying a new Nvidia GPU. Some people would like to keep using the hardware they already have.
danielmarkbruce 4 hours ago||
The cost to deal with rocm is > cost of a consumer nvidia gpu by orders of magnitude.
swyx 1 day ago||
> Thank you to chief LLM whisperer Alec Radford for advice/guidance.

oh man an Alec x Andrej podcast would BREAK THE INTERNET... just saying... going from glory days of GPT1 to now building GPT3? in 4 hours

codybontecou 1 day ago|
Please oh please. This would be perfect.
CountGeek 1 day ago||
So could I in practice train it on all my psychology books, materials, reports, case study and research papers and then run it on demand on a 1xH100 node - https://getdeploying.com/reference/cloud-gpu/nvidia-h100 whenever I have a specialised question?
leokeba 1 day ago||
You could do that indeed, but the performance would be abysmal. For this kind of use-case, it would be a LOT better to use a small pre-trained model and either fine-tune it on your materials, or use some kind of RAG workflow (possibly both).
dmix 23 hours ago||
> it would be a LOT better to use a small pre-trained model and either fine-tune it on your materials, or use some kind of RAG workflow (possibly both).

I noticed NewRelic has a chat feature that does this sort of thing, it's scoped very narrowly down to their website and analytics DSL language, and generates charts/data from their db. I've always wondered how they did that (specifically in terms of set up the training/RAG + guardrails). It's super useful.

simonw 22 hours ago||
You might be able to figure that out just by asking it - see if you can get it to spit out a copy of the system prompt or tell you what tools it has access to.

The most likely way of building that would be to equip it with a "search_docs" tool that lets it look up relevant information for your query. No need to train an extra model at all if you do that.

zipy124 1 day ago|||
You could but it would be significantly worse than fine-tuning or RAG with a pre-trained model, or using a smaller model since your dataset would be so small.
gojomo 1 day ago|||
Yes, though it's possible a more-general core model, further enhanced with some other ways to bring those texts-of-interest into the working context, might perform better.

Those other ways to integrate the texts might be some form of RAG or other ideas like Apple's recent 'hierarchical memories' (https://arxiv.org/abs/2510.02375).

alganet 1 day ago||
No.
flakiness 1 day ago||
Eureka Labs: https://github.com/EurekaLabsAI

What a prolific person Andrej is. It's been more than amazing to follow along!

karimf 1 day ago||
I've always thought about the best way to contribute to humanity: number of people you help x how much you help them. I think what Karpathy is doing is one of the highest leverage ways to achieve that.

Our current world is build on top of open source projects. This is possible because there are a lot of free resources to learn to code so anyone from anywhere in the world can learn and make a great piece of software.

I just hope the same will happen with the AI/LLM wave.

bkettle 1 day ago||
This free tradition in software is I think one of the things that I love so much, but I don't see how it can continue with LLMs due to the extremely high training costs and the powerful hardware required for inference. It just seems like writing software will necessarily require paying rent to the LLM hosts to keep up. I guess it's possible that we'll figure out a way to do local inference in a way that is accessible to everyone in the way that most other modern software tools are, but the high training costs make that seem unlikely to me.

I also worry that as we rely on LLMs more and more, we will stop producing the kind of tutorials and other content aimed at beginners that makes it so easy to pick up programming the manual way.

levocardia 23 hours ago|||
There's a Stephen Boyd quote that's something like "if your optimization problem is too computationally expensive, just go on vacation to Greece for a few weeks and by the time you get back, computers might be fast enough to solve it." With LLMs there's sort of an equivalent situation with cost: how mindblowing would it be able to train this kind of LLM at all even just 4 years ago? And today you can get a kindergartener level chat model for about $100. Not hard to imagine the same model costing $10 of compute in a few years.

There's also a reasonable way to "leapfrog" the training cost with a pre-trained model. So if you were doing nanochat as a learning exercise and had no money, the idea would be to code it up, run one or two very slow gradient descent iterations on your slow machine to make sure it is working, then download a pre-trained version from someone who could spare the compute.

piokoch 12 hours ago|||
But in this case the reason is simple: the core algorithm is O(n^2), this not going to be improved over a few weeks.
dingnuts 23 hours ago|||
> today you can get a kindergartener level chat model for about $100. Not hard to imagine the same model costing $10 of compute in a few years.

No, it's extremely hard to imagine since I used one of Karpathy's own models to have a basic chat bot like six years ago. Yes, it spoke nonsense; so did my GPT-2 fine tune four years ago and so does this.

And so does ChatGPT

Improvement is linear at best. I still think it's actually a log curve and GPT3 was the peak of the "fun" part of the curve. The only evidence I've seen otherwise is bullshit benchmarks, "agents" that increase performance 2x by increasing token usage 100x, and excited salesmen proclaiming the imminence of AGI

simonw 22 hours ago|||
Apparently 800 million weekly users are finding ChatGPT useful in its present state.
infinitezest 21 hours ago||
1. According to who? Open AI? 2. Its current state is "basically free and containing no ads". I don't think this will remain true given that, as far as I know, the product is very much not making money.
simonw 21 hours ago||
Yes, that number is according to OpenAI. They released that 800m number at DevDay last week.

The most recent leaked annualized revenue rate was $12bn/year. They're spending a lot more than that but convincing customers to hand over $12bn is still a very strong indicator of demand. https://www.theinformation.com/articles/openai-hits-12-billi...

bgwalter 16 hours ago||
Part of that comes from Microsoft API deals. Part of that will most certainly come because the vast network of companies buy subscriptions to help "Open" "AI" [1].

Given the rest of circular deals, I'd also scrutinize if it applies to the revenue. The entanglement with the Microsoft investments and the fact that "Open" "AI" is a private company makes that difficult to research.

[1] In a U.S. startup, I went through three CEOs and three HR apps, which mysteriously had to change for no reason but to accommodate the new CEO's friends and their startups.

llbbdd 3 hours ago||
When people take the time to virtue signal "Open" "AI" or the annoyingly common M$ on here I wonder often why they are wasting their precious time on earth doing that
bgwalter 2 hours ago||
It is in my style guide. I see that you optimized your time by omitting the full stop at the end of the sentence.
wordpad 13 hours ago|||
Even with linear progression of model capability, the curve for model usefulness could be exponential, especially if we consider model cost which will come down.

For every little bit a model a smarter and more accurate there are exponentially more real world tasks it could be used for.

hodgesrm 1 day ago||||
This. It looks like one of the keys to maintaining open source is to ensure OSS developers have access to capable models. In the best of worlds, LLM vendors would recognize that open source software is the commons that feeds their models and ensure it flourishes.

In the real world...

DennisP 21 hours ago|||
Maybe this isn't possible for LLMs yet, but open source versions of AlphaZero have been trained on peer-to-peer networks.

https://zero.sjeng.org/

https://katagotraining.org/

Lerc 21 hours ago|||
(This is a bit ranty, but due to a sincere desire for a better world, and being the recipient of personal attacks for believing a better world is achievable by a different path to others)

I feel like this point of view is an ideal not shared by one of the main branches of anti-AI sentiment.

The idea of intellectual property works against this. Rather than contributing to humanity directly, ownership of information is accumulated by individuals and then rented to humanity.

At the same time I agree that people should be able to have a livelihood that affords them the ability to create new intellectual contributions.

The service Karpathy is providing is also being provided by thousands of YouTube creators in a huge variety of topics. It's a little sad that so many must support their efforts with support their efforts with sponsorships from sources with varying degrees of ethical behaviour. Patreon is better but still not ideal. I sincerely believe this _is_ one of the best ways to contribute to society.

A recent Daily Show had Jon Stewart describe training AI as strip mining human knowledge. Training AI is regularly described as theft as if this position is a given without any counter argument possible. It is opinion masquerading as fact. This saddens me because it suggests to me that the war to control the narrative is being won by people who want to entrench a hypercapitalistic vision of ownership where not only is a particular expression of an idea ownable but also stakes a claim to own some of any ideas that come from viewing that expression.

I cannot see any way that this viewpoint would aid humanity as a whole, but instead assign benefits to a collection of individuals. The ability to trade intellectual property means that ownership inevitably gets passed to a smaller and smaller pool of individuals over time.

I think we really do need a new way to consider these issues in light of the modern world. When mentioning these thoughts to others a common refrain is that it doesn't matter because the powers that be (and their lobbyists) will prevent any fix from happening. I have never been fond of that particular fatalism, especially when it inhibits discussion of what would be better.

oblio 21 hours ago||
Awesome approach.

I'm all for abolishing IP if all AIs are owned communally. I.e. ideally they're utilities or flat out co-ops like some Spanish businesses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation

Consum (Spanish supermarket).

They don't get to use everything communally and then capitalism their way forward.

viccis 1 day ago|||
I recommend his ANN/LLM from scratch videos to people a lot because not only is he a clear instructor, but his code tends to be very Pythonic and just the right balance of terse but readable (not counting the Pytorch vectorization stuff, but that's not his fault, it's just complex). So I think people benefit just from watching and imitating his code style.
epolanski 23 hours ago|||
Then a single person whose learned those skills decide to poison all of us thanks to the skills acquired.
carlcortright 23 hours ago|||
strong +1 - developers like him are heros
shafyy 1 day ago|||
If it only were so easy
martin-t 1 day ago|||
As noble as the goal sounds, I think it's wrong.

Software is just a tool. Much like a hammer, a knife, or ammonium nitrate, it can be used for both good or bad.

I say this as someone who has spent almost 15 years writing software in my free time and publishing it as open source: building software and allowing anyone to use it does not automatically make other people's lives better.

A lot of my work has been used for bad purposes or what some people would consider bad purposes - cheating on tests, cheating in games, accessing personal information without permission, and in one case my work contributed to someone's doxxing. That's because as soon as you publish it, you lose control over it.

But at least with open source software, every person can use it to the same extent so if the majority of people are good, the result is likely to be more positive than negative.

With what is called AI today, only the largest corporations can afford to train the models which means they are controlled by people who have entirely different incentives from the general working population and many of whom have quite obvious antisocial personality traits.

At least 2 billion people live in dictatorships. AI has the potential to become a tool of mass surveillance and total oppression from which those countries will never recover because just like the models can detect a woman is pregnant before she knows it, it will detect a dissenter long before dissent turns into resistance.

I don't have high hopes for AI to be a force for good and teaching people how toy models work, as fun as it is, is not gonna change it.

simonw 23 hours ago|||
"With what is called AI today, only the largest corporations can afford to train the models"

I take it you're very positive about Andrej's new project which allows anyone to train a model for a few hundred dollars which is comparable to the state-of-the-art from just 5 years ago then.

hn_acc1 20 hours ago||
For a few hundred dollars, given heavily-VC-subsidized hardware that is probably partially funded by nvidia and various AI companies, etc.

Can I run it on my local hardware (nvidia consumer card, AMD cpu)? No. When could that corporation cut off my access to that hardware if I did anything it didn't like? Anytime.

Lots of things have started off cheap / subsidized to put competitors out of business, and then the prices go up, up and up..

simonw 20 hours ago||
> Can I run it on my local hardware?

Yes. The training process requires big expensive GPUs. The model it produces has 561M parameters, which should run on even a high end mobile phone (I run 4B models on my iPhone).

oliveiracwb 23 hours ago||||
I would genuinely love to think otherwise. But I've seen and grown up seeing good things being used in stupid ways (not necessarily for malice)
isaacremuant 23 hours ago|||
> At least 2 billion people live in dictatorships. AI has the potential to become a tool of mass surveillance and total oppression from which those countries will never recover because just like the models can detect a woman is pregnant before she knows it, it will detect a dissenter long before dissent turns into resistance.

It already works like this in your precious western democracies and they didn't need AI to be authoritarian total surveillance states in spirit, with quite a lot of support from a propagandized populace that begged for or pretended to agree with the infringement of their civil rights because of terrorism, drugs, covid or protecting the poor poor children.

You can combat tech with legislation and culture but the legislation and culture were way beyond the tech in being extremely authoritian in the first place.

nebula8804 12 hours ago||
I don't know man. All this "tech" didn't see AOC, Sanders, and other 'radicals' coming. The parties actually had to expend effort after the fact to delegitimize them and have to continue to do so for additional candidates that come along(Jamal Bowman, Cori Bush, etc.)
croes 1 day ago|||
I‘m afraid the technology will do more damage because many people will abuse it for fake news and misinformation.
IntrepidPig 1 day ago||
Yeah it feels similar to inventing the nuke. Or it’s even more insidious because the harmful effects of the tech are not nearly as obvious or immediate as the good effects, so less restraint is applied. But also, similar to the nuke, once the knowledge on how to do it is out there, someone’s going to use it, which obligates everyone else to use it to keep up.
contingencies 23 hours ago|||
While documenting a build path is nice, IMHO renting hardware nobody can afford from VC-backed cloud providers using cold hard cash to produce clones of legacy tech using toy datasets under the guise of education is propping up the AI bubble and primarily helping institutional shareholders in those AI bubble companies, particularly their hardware supplier NVidia. Personally I do not see this as helping people or humanity.

This would sit better with me if the repo included a first tier use case for local execution, non-NVidia hardware reference, etc.

simonw 23 hours ago|||
"This would sit better with me if the repo included a first tier use case for local execution, non-NVidia hardware reference, etc."

This is a pretty disheartening way to respond to something like this. Someone puts a great deal of effort into giving something interesting away for free, and is told "you should have also done THIS work for free as well in order for me to value your contribution".

contingencies 23 hours ago||
It is an objective and transparent response based on free software world norms. Feel free to interpret differently and to be disheartened. Hell, many of us are disheartened by the AI VC political theater we are seeing right now: experienced programmers, artists, lawyers, perhaps much of humanity. Let's stick to objective elements of the discussion, not emotional opine.
wordpad 13 hours ago||||
Tinkering with something is what inspires next generation of innovators, in this space or another.

Think back to your first experience with tech, something you just erenstly thought was cool...

CamperBob2 23 hours ago||||
If you can't afford $100 or learn how to train it locally with more time and less money, then this isn't something you should be focusing on at all.
contingencies 23 hours ago||
It is amusing to note the dichotomy between the clearly compassionate, empathetic and altruistic perspective displayed here and the comically overstated framing of helping humanity.
CamperBob2 21 hours ago||
(Shrug) Other sites beckon.
vagrantJin 11 hours ago||
This is wholly unhelpful.
CamperBob2 1 hour ago||
Sorry. Personally, as an HN user, I'd like to see more Karpathy and less... whatever this guy is rambling on about.
jstummbillig 23 hours ago|||
I think you got your proportions slightly wrong there. This will be contributing as much to an AI bubble as a kid tinkering around with combustion is contribution to global warming.
contingencies 23 hours ago||
Not really. Anything that guy does sets the tone for an extended cacophony of fans and followers. It would be a sad day when nobody critically assesses the motivations, effects and framing of those moves. I question the claim this move helps humanity and stand by the assessment it's just more feeding an unfree ecosystem which equates to propping up the bubble.
jstummbillig 12 hours ago||
That certainly sounds very ominous.
bgwalter 17 hours ago|||
He is the GOAT of LLM MVPs. That is educational and useful, especially because he uses a minimal and clean style, but I don't see how it even compares with kernels, operating systems etc.

So I appreciate his work in an academic and educational sense, but large scale applications with stolen training material are still theft.

Yizahi 23 hours ago||
I would adjust your formula to the:

number of people you help x how much you help them x number of people you harm x how much you harm them

For example - harming a little bit all content creators of the world, by stealing their work without compensation or permission. How much does that cost globally every year after year? How do we even quantify long term consequences of that? Stuff like that.

wordpad 13 hours ago||
If you consider the cost of hiring a human professional to over using multimodal AI for something, its very realize literally thousands of dollars of value per chat.

Multiply that by many billions of chats per day.

Lawyers and other professionals charge a lot. So do artists, especially when you want to do a million revisions. LLMs hand it out for free, making many knowledge and art professions affordable and accessible to the masses.

Stable owners were upset when cars replaced horses, but you can't stop progress, especially when value proposition is undenyable.

Yizahi 10 hours ago||
I wonder what people will do, when they will realize that LLM lawyers produce insufficient results, but "suddenly" all cheap bottom rung lawyers are gone and switched professions.

As for the LLM "creative" content, have you seen it or read it? Well, same problem. After you will need a quality content, good luck finding some cheap creator. Pay full price for an experienced one and likely wait.

PS: I don't doubt that LLMs are here to stay. They will se a lot of usage and pervade all industries. It's just that future will be pretty shit. Talking on phone with LLMs, reading LLM slop, seeing LLM lop everywhere, receiving generated emails and using LLMs to reverse parse them to search for an actual content, major economy downturn, rapidly slowing salary growth (not that it was big before), etc.

alex000kim 6 hours ago|
I created this PR to make it easier for folks to train and serve it on any cloud (or their own K8s): https://github.com/karpathy/nanochat/pull/18
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