Top
Best
New

Posted by jaypatelani 2 days ago

Let's Help NetBSD Cross the Finish Line Before 2025 Ends(mail-index.netbsd.org)
400 points | 235 commentspage 2
mythz 2 days ago|
It's really in the best interest of everyone using it to chip in and keep the project relevant. Unfortunately the amount of donations is going to be contingent on the size of its user base which will need to grow to ensure its longevity.
dijit 2 days ago||
eh, I don't use it, I chucked $150 their way.

Having NetBSD around is a net win, and the cost of doing business for them is extremely low for the product they provide.

jaypatelani 2 days ago||
Thanks a lot:)
atomic_princess 2 days ago||
[flagged]
dijit 2 days ago||
Linux supports much less hardware than NetBSD.

There are entire categories of computers that simply cannot run Linux.

SPARC64 as an example in this very comment section.

casept 2 days ago||
Sure, but one is much more likely to have some ARM(64) SBC / smartphone / tablet / IoT device laying around than a SPARC box. Those are much more likely to have Linux than NetBSD drivers. Support for ancient architectures doesn't matter nearly as much as that.
GeorgeTirebiter 2 days ago||
I just donated. It's important to keep projects like NetBSD vital, as a monoculture benefits nobody but the monoculturists. I think of it as a way to help ensure Survival of the Species - by diversity.
jaypatelani 2 days ago|
Thanks a lot :)
skullone 2 days ago||
Donated! Thank you very much, NetBSD was one of my first experiences, on a Pentium 60 with a 504MB hard drive. It made me who I am today, eternally grateful to have learned from such amazing and talented people.
jaypatelani 2 days ago|
Thanks a lot :)
jonahx 2 days ago||
Out of pure curiosity, is all the actual programming work for the foundation provided free of charge by volunteers? And the foundation expenses are mostly legal and administrative?

It wasn't clear to me based on the financials: https://www.netbsd.org/foundation/reports/financial/2023.htm...

Maybe the consulting section includes payments for programming work? Presumably at cheap rates, if so?

fujigawa 2 days ago|
>Maybe the consulting section includes payments for programming work? Presumably at cheap rates, if so?

Have we reached the point on the timeline where we believe low-level operating system code should be acquired at "cheap rates"? While simultaneously, I assume, believing webshit cloud bollocks still demands top dollar?

jonahx 2 days ago||
I do not hold that belief, and nothing in my reply implies that I do.

Per the link I included, the total spent on consulting was 17,939.51 USD. So, if they were paying people, the people were working cheaply. But the consulting may have been for non-programming work. Hence my question.

owl_vision 2 days ago||
an offspring to build your own minimal BSD UNIX system: https://www.smolbsd.org/
olivia-banks 2 days ago||
Donated!! I run a small cluster of a few nodes I bought for cheap, and I’m experimenting with SSI on them. The kernel is really nice to read and modify.
jaypatelani 2 days ago|
Thanks a lot:)
jmclnx 2 days ago||
Such an underfunded project. Even with such low resources they can get a lot done.
motorest 2 days ago|
It surprised me that a project such as NetBSD only managed to raise ~$10k throughout the year. What's going on with the project?
jmclnx 2 days ago|||
The last few years or so, its activity seemed to have increased quite a bit, or maybe they are getting more press then they have had in many years :)

FWIW, this is the first time I have ever seen any mention of donations on any major tech WEB site.

atomic_princess 2 days ago|||
[flagged]
xyproto 2 days ago||
Does NetBSD really help reduce e-waste any more than Linux already does?
unleaded 2 days ago||
Maybe not yet but I can see Linux's place as the shitbox saviour start slipping a bit in the next few years. Debian dropping x86, distros getting fatter in general.. I can't really see those trends reversing. Meanwhile NetBSD goes against them.

However it goes, the main issue is one no operating system can solve which is modern life relying on the Web and beefier browsers. Unless you want to rebel against that you're probably better off getting a laptop from the past 10 years for < £100 on eBay.

Imustaskforhelp 2 days ago|||
Although I agree with beefier browsers, I also want to say that there are browsers like dillo etc. which can be good enough for simple websites and also not everything needs a web browser to be usable

Imagine this, a system which can watch movies, edit texts, create disks, have curl/wget, send and recieve files using piping server (which is a curl thing) , view pdfs, mpv and what not, a desktop manager, file manager etc.

As someone hacking around with the legendary tiny core linux, I am more and more mind blown each day with just how much can happen in 14-21 MB, you can definitely build a mini self hosting rack with just some remastering as tinycore can actually run podman as well (combine this with alpine containers to create a super duper minimalist self hosting things too)

the possibilities are endless. When I ran tiny core linux on my pc and ran nothing else, It took 21 mb in ram for a whole gui with editors and file managers etc. all running in ram so super fast filesystem with a package manager

I personally wanted to build my own operating system to limit myself to the most minimal system so taht I just study and do nothing else, I thought tiny core was it but then I tried to hack around it and there are sooooo many things in 21 mb, makes me appreciate minimalism

dijit 2 days ago||
> which can watch movies

I have to say, the sheer fucking irony of this statement made me do a double-take.

I might be showing my age a bit, but I'm still remembering when web-browsing was considered a "light" activity (without extensions like Web Java), and watching a video was "very computationally expensive".

I guess some shift happened in the early 2010's where video playback was hardware accelerated more frequently; and complicated javascript started taking off as Google unveiled v8.

malfist 2 days ago||
As much as the tech bro billionare class salivate over the idea of bringing an "everything app" to the market, we already have those. They're called browsers.
Imustaskforhelp 2 days ago||
This might be one of the reasons why things like chatgpt (OpenAI) etc. are releasing atlas etc.

This is their attempt of everything app, where the whole internet would be behind the UI of their chatbot and it would go through an LLM before being changed by it and then it would pass to us.

Your single comment explains a lot really and this is something that I agree. Everything App is the browser/internet, combining it with things like wasm, you can even run whole iso files in browser wasm itself (Its fresh on my mind because I shared it to somebody on HN right now but try out copy.sh/v86 [1])

[1]: https://copy.sh/v86/

dijit 2 days ago|||
How is TLS negotiation and transport on older hardware (with no AES-NI hardware acceleration)?

I remember it used to be expensive as heck to do TLS back in 2014~, so much so that we bought accelerator cards and segmented "secure" servers so that load wouldn't hit the ordinary browsing of our sites...

1vuio0pswjnm7 2 days ago||
"How is TLS negotiation and transport on older hardware (with no AES-NI hardware acceleration)?"

I use a TLS forward proxy. With today's overpowered hardware, I can even run the proxy on an old "phone" (but I cant run NetBSD^1)

This allows the older computers I own to use plaintext HTTP like the good old days

1. Despite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-Mobile_Sidekick

p_ing 2 days ago|||
The argument for NetBSD is that it runs on almost anything that was ever produced. That isn't the case for Linux, even older x86 is no longer supported in the mainline.
jmmv 2 days ago||
That may be technically true but…

Linux (the kernel) may have been ported to more machines and architectures than NetBSD’s kernel, yes. But is all the code present in the same source tree or do you have to go find patch sets or unofficial branches?

More importantly: is there a modern distribution that builds an installable system for that platform?

The special thing about NetBSD is that you get the portability out of a single and modern tree for many more platforms than any single Linux distribution offers.

pabs3 18 hours ago|||
The Linux ecosystem is removing support for lots of stuff, especially the distros, but also the kernel.
p_ing 2 days ago|||
You said the same thing I did with extra steps.
jmmv 2 days ago||
That’s because… I misread your comment.

In any case, NetBSD is not well known and “why bother because Linux also runs everywhere too” so I thought it was worth explaining.

p_ing 2 days ago||
Sadly the BSDs are not well known.

I asked a major employer why they're using Linux + Apache for an RP when OpenBSD + HAProxy + CARP is a significantly better option. Crickets.

I want a good laptop for OpenBSD (or FreeBSD, at the least) that isn't 10 years old or weighs 5+ lbs.

kakwa_ 2 days ago|||
https://technically.kakwalab.ovh/posts/silly-sun-server-intr...

Some architectures are no longer practical with Linux. The kernel might still support it, but distribution support is sketchy.

For a SPARC64 server refurb project, the choices were pretty much OpenBSD or NetBSD in my case.

pabs3 18 hours ago||
Debian still has a sparc64 port (sid only).
xhkkffbf 2 days ago|||
Some of the Linux distros are getting pretty fat and don't work so well on older hardware. Of course some are lean too. But NetBSD has a goal.
ptrwis 2 days ago|||
What do you think, there are milions of people or companies running NetBSD on 486 to protect the planet from e-waste? How many times have you replaced your phone with a newer model in the last 10 years?
timeon 2 days ago||
> How many times have you replaced your phone with a newer model in the last 10 years

Once, after accident.

iberator 2 days ago|||
yes. It supports like 60 different cpu architecture all back to 1979 VAX 790 INCLUDED.

Its also one of few OSes where 32-bit 386 is still tier 1 release.

All from single code source code tree.

xyproto 2 days ago||
Does running NetBSD on VAX from 1979 help to reduce e-waste, though?
iberator 2 days ago||
Yes if you still run it. 0 metal wasted.
atomic_princess 2 days ago||
[flagged]
rfrey 2 days ago|||
I think they were talking about physical computers ending up in landfills.

Edit: nvmd, I see this account was created 20 minutes ago and has only low-effort comments attacking BSD. I've never understood how people can develop such negative feelings about technologies.

jamesnorden 2 days ago|||
That's not what e-waste means.
phendrenad2 2 days ago||
Big fan of NetBSD. From the perspective of a kernel hacker, I found the NetBSD codebase to be very readable and easy to work with. FreeBSD and OpenBSD, while being more fully-featured and security-minded respectively, had to make compromises in their codebase as a result.
bfkwlfkjf 2 days ago|
OT what's with the email addresses with percent signs in them?
layer8 2 days ago||
See http://www.faqs.org/docs/linux_network/x-087-2-mail.address.... (next to last paragraph)
berikv 2 days ago||
“Then there is the % address operator: user %domainB@domainA is first sent to domainA, which expands the rightmost (in this case, the only) percent sign to an @ sign. The address is now user@domainB, and the mailer happily forwards your message to domainB, which delivers it to user. This type of address is sometimes referred to as “Ye Olde ARPAnet Kludge,” and its use is discouraged“
MontyCarloHall 2 days ago||
>Ye Olde ARPAnet Kludge

Seems fitting that NetBSD's internal mailing lists still use ossified address syntax from a time before DNS.

andai 2 days ago||
I would guess it's an anti-spam measure. Although if I'm reading sibling comment right, it is actually a valid email address? (Assuming you have a mail server running on localhost.)
layer8 2 days ago||
It’s rather the opposite: Spammers used to exploit that mechanism back when it was more widely enabled.
andai 1 day ago||
I'm not sure I understand. Why would the website use that format then?
layer8 1 day ago||
The respective mailserver likely checks which domains it is forwarding mails to, e.g. only allowing netbsd.org, or only allowing mails from localhost. In the more distant past, that wasn’t the case, so spammers would send their mails to the domain of such mail servers, who would blindly forward it to whatever domain is encoded after the percent sign in the local part. They’d effectively serve as an open mail relay then.
More comments...