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Posted by xeonmc 10/27/2025

This World of Ours (2014) [pdf](www.usenix.org)
246 points | 191 commentspage 3
zkmon 10/27/2025|
Security is a problem caused by ownership of some usefulness. Sometimes solution can be around addressing these two causes.
tarjei_huse 10/27/2025|
Do you have a concrete example?
zkmon 10/27/2025||
Do not have concentrated usefulness and do not have concentrated ownership.
contrarian1234 10/27/2025||
I think the central premise is a "wrong". The "point" of science isn't really to do useful things. Framing things from that angle is in subtle ways dangerous bc that shouldnt be part of the incentive structure.

you dont understand the mating behaviors of naked mole rats bc of some sense of "usefulness". Its just an investigation of nature and how things work. The usefulness comes out unexpectedly. Like you find out naked mole are actually maybe biologically immortal

You should just find interesting phenomena and invetigate. Capitalism figures out the usefulness side of things

wmwragg 10/27/2025|
Yeah, Science shouldn't be concerned with usefulness, just like Art. It's the application of those fields which should concern itself with usefulness i.e. applied science, engineering, design etc. I'm not saying that scientific research shouldn't be carried out by companies with specific goals in mind, just that it shouldn't be the expected default.
impossiblefork 10/27/2025||
The Mossad part is a very silly element of the text. Many organizations have to defend against US intelligence, Israeli intelligence etc., and I'm sure, that they, with the exception of some very terrible countries with a lot of incompetence or full of disloyal people likely to become infiltrators, are quite successful.

Actual security is possible even against the most powerful and determined adversaries, and it's possible even for you.

IAmBroom 10/27/2025|
Well, data security. Right up until the wetware is included.
impossiblefork 10/27/2025||
I think, a lot of people imagine these people as very capable, and they think of things like those pagers etc., but when I think of them I think of the Lillehammer affair and a bunch of other similarly silly business, so I'm much less impressed with them, feeling that they're basically silly people.

There's so many cock-ups etc. that you can read about Wikipedia that I don't understand why people hold these people highly and imagine them to be so able. They simply aren't.

hackernewscunts 10/27/2025||
[dead]
realFredWilson 10/27/2025||
[flagged]
tsimionescu 10/27/2025||
Just because you don't like the reputation that the Mossad has both gotten and created for itself, doesn't mean that playing on that reputation is in any way antisemitic. It's fair perhaps to consider it anti-Israel, given that the Mossad is am agency of the state.

And the Mossad really has a terrible reputation, both for efficiency and for being relatively bloody. The assassinations of the nazi officials who had fled to South America are a founding myth (and a positive one, of course - no one should cry for spilled literal nazi regime blood). For a more recent example, you have the campaign of booby-trapped Hezbollah devices that killed or injured quite a few Lebanese civilians along with various militia members, which the Mossad and Israeli government more generally gleefully talked about.

You'll find far fewer similar stories about the CIA or even GRU - at least from any current events (e.g. the CIA's most heinous actions were usually only talked about years later, like their campaigns of terror in Latin America). The GRU's operations are also less talked about, no doubt to a great extent because it is an adversary, and we don't want to talk about how good our adversaries are.

george916a 10/27/2025|||
[flagged]
tsimionescu 10/27/2025|||
Ridiculous on the face of it.
kotaKat 10/27/2025|||
Interesting we get these sudden 2 to 3 month old accounts with no comment history popping into these threads to start stirring the pot.
xrd 10/27/2025||
Be careful, you commenting here is exactly the starting point for how the Mossad gets a highly radioactive uranium cell phone into your back pocket. I'm sorry I was too late for you.
kotaKat 10/27/2025||
I'm prepared to accept those risks, I've got my lead-lined underwear ;)
dralley 10/27/2025|||
>> For a more recent example, you have the campaign of booby-trapped Hezbollah devices that killed or injured quite a few Lebanese civilians along with various militia members,

It was quite possibly the most well targeted large scale military attack on a militia group in history, not to mention nonlethal to 99.5%, including Hezbollah members. What alternative military approaches do you suggest? While collateral damage is always tragic, it was almost inconceivably clean for what it managed to accomplish

tsimionescu 10/27/2025|||
That's irrelevant to the point I was making, that the Mossad is seen, based on evidence, as both an efficient and a ruthless organization.

If you want to discuss the merits of the operation, though: for one thing, Israel is not at war with Lebanon, so any attack on Lebanese people, even Hezbollah soldiers, is immoral (as are Hezbollah's attacks on Israel, even the ones that kill Israeli soldiers, are immoral). Secondly, even accepting that Hezbollah militia members are a legitimate war target, that doesn't make all members of Hezbollah legitimate targets. Even in war, attacking troops who are at home on leave, or attacking auxiliary personnel such as military doctors, is not considered a legitimate military target. How many of those killed were active duty military personnel, and how many were not? I would bet that the numbers are much worse than the 99.5% propaganda.

pjc50 10/27/2025|||
> Israel is not at war with Lebanon

So why do all those rockets keep getting launched from Lebanon into Israel? Lebanon is either de-facto at war with Israel or is a failed state that has lost the ability to keep third party (Iranian Hezbollah) military from violating its ostensible neutrality.

We can and should condemn both Israel for indiscriminate violence against civilians, and Iran for escalating this conflict. It feels very weird to say "I don't think there's been enough international condemnation of Iran lately", given how much they've been condemned justly or unjustly my entire lifetime, but they really are both provoking a war whose consequences fall on Lebanese and Palestinians (and Israelis!), while also being a key supplier to Russia in their "illegal" war on Ukraine.

dralley 10/27/2025||||
You don't get to have it both ways. You can't say, on one hand, that Hezbollah are an illegitimate militia that shouldn't be conflated with Lebanon and also that there is some clean distinction between on and off-duty as if they were a real legitimate military.

And especially not when we're literally talking about the pagers carried on their person. Basically by definition, if you are a Hezbollah member carrying a Hezbollah-issued pager on your person, and you get a message, and you actively pick up the device and look at the message - at that very moment you are acting in Hezbollah capacity.

pjc50 10/27/2025|||
> assassinates via uranium phones and then gloats at press conferences with "IT WAS DEFINITELY US" t-shirts?

This would be an easier complaint to make if Israeli intelligence hadn't assassinated a bunch of people by exploding pagers and then publicly taken credit for it.

I'm sure the thousand exploding pagers miraculously only managed to target Hamas members, and that no children or innocent civilians were maimed or injured.

Mossad got this reputation from back in the day with "Operation Wrath Of God", where in retaliation for the horrific Black September attack on the Israeli Olympic team they carried out a series of extra-territorial murders. History might forgive them that until they murdered a Morrocan waiter in Lillehammer by mistake.

(no excuse for generalized anti-semetism, though. People should stick to criticisms of things that Israel has actually done, not make them up)

h33t-l4x0r 10/27/2025|||
I don't see antisemitic here, the implication is that Mossad is highly competent at hacking compared to NSA / GRU. And this was 2014, back before antisemitism became rather fashionable among people who should know better.
cthulberg 10/27/2025|||
> Portraying Israeli intelligence as this omnipotent, cartoonishly evil entity that assassinates via uranium phones

https://www.timesofisrael.com/how-hezbollah-was-fooled-into-...

> and then gloats at press conferences with "IT WAS DEFINITELY US" t-shirts

https://www.timesofisrael.com/pms-office-confirms-netanyahu-...

It is not antisemitic, just daily news.

lexicality 10/27/2025|||
Bought a pager recently?
westpfelia 10/27/2025|||
Uranium phones no. Pager bombs sure. If you dont want to be labeled as cartoonishly evil then stop doing cartoonishly evil things.

Look at the Pegasus spyware. Shit was sold by Israel to the Saudi's so they could track a journalist and chop him up.

icameron 10/27/2025|||
While not the uranium phones and tee shirts, in the real world just last year we got Operation Grim Beeper, where Mossad remotely detonated thousands of custom made pagers with a few grams of plastic explosive, followed by two way radios the next day. AFAIK they didn’t make tee shirts but they did go on 60 minutes, in disguise, to brag about the operation. Just saying, it seems pretty on brand.
BLKNSLVR 10/27/2025|||
> Portraying Israeli intelligence as this omnipotent, cartoonishly evil entity that assassinates via uranium phones

Uses term "cartoonishly evil" to describe a scenario scarily close to a recent actual example.

The only way I can fathom this comment on HN is that it's masterful irony. And if that's the case, I applaud it.

If not: smh.

Edited to add two things:

1. It seems like the opposite of punching down, more like fearful respect of their capability.

2. I struggle to draw a line between criticising the efficiency with which an agency kills people and anti-semitism.

I would think that most people that consider themselves jewish, or a true believer of any religion, or just a well-adjusted non-denominational human (as rare as they are) for that matter, would respect the sanctity of life, and see the pursuit of murder, for any reason, as antithetical to their beliefs.

speedgoose 10/27/2025|||
Thanks ChatGPT.
lesser-shadow 10/27/2025|||
[dead]
tomlockwood 10/27/2025|||
Ethnostates and Theocracies are shit. If an intelligence agency is representative of a single race or religion, its bad. Quit your job.
kotaKat 10/27/2025||
Nice ChatGPT bait, Mossad agent.
pinebox 10/27/2025||
This all seemed very clever until I read the bio and learned that the author works for Microsoft -- the last company that has any business being flip about security. Bro needs to STFU and get on with the security drudgery, because his customer's opposition very definitely is the Mossad.
gjvc 10/27/2025||
this guy's stuff reads like word salad and people lap it up. I've never understood why.
torginus 10/27/2025||
He wrote quirky internet humor before it was mainstream, in fact he's a victim of his own success - when this article came out this would've been considered funny and witty writing, but has become tired and derivative enough today to provoke a negative reaction.
Havoc 10/27/2025|||
Despite word salad it is entertaining and the core message is valid
EdwardDiego 10/27/2025||
Because it's a funny rant.
gjvc 11/3/2025||
Without the burden of being funny
torginus 10/27/2025||
If your adversary is a state intelligence agency, you're probably a high ranking politician and a boomer who is clueless about computers, and has demonstrably terrible opsec, either through government incompetence of your own agencies, or not following the terribly cumbersome opsec procedures, either because of inconvenience, the policies being terrible or sheer incompetence.

The amount of examples we've seen of this is staggering.

sigwinch 10/27/2025|
That sounds like an elected legislator, not like the kind of person with close access to compartmentalized info. And its the form of a leak of policy or some covert program; details which could also be bought; so it’s called “retail” compared with systematic.
torginus 10/27/2025||
I think saying that people like Hillary Clinton, Trump, Biden or Bolton didn't have access to highly sensitive information is not a reasonable stance (and those are just the ones we know about).
sigwinch 10/27/2025||
It’s good that no one is arguing that. But your argument isn’t strong. You’re saying that numbers matter. Those kinds of people go in and out of SCIFs. If they belch a secret at lunch, maybe it has lobbying implications, but it wasn’t compartmentalized. It can even be disinfo.

The real ROI is to land a Jonathan Pollard. Not even a million Hegseths can leak enough info to collect into one Pollard.

lifestyleguru 10/27/2025||
Then how it's possible Mossad didn't know about what had happened on 7 October 2023?
b112 10/27/2025||
The same way the US didn't know about 9/11. Intelligence failures.

(Portions of the US intelligence apparatus knew, but that knowledge didn't transition into action)

energy123 10/27/2025||
Israel's intelligence services (not Mossad) did collect valid signals, such as sim cards in Gaza being swapped out for Israel sim cards, but it was ignored as another false positive. What the public don't see are all the false positives (like many drills for an attack that don't materialize) that drown out valid signals when the attack is actually going to happen. There's also hesitancy to act on signals because drills are used to expose intelligence.

It's one of the many asymmetries that changes when you are the defender versus the attacker. As the defender, you have to be right 100% of the time. As the attacker, you have the luxury of being right only 30% of the time. The law of large numbers is on the side of the attacker. This applies to missile offense/defense and to usage of intelligence.

This information asymmetry is also one of the key drivers of the security dilemma, which in turn causes arms races and conflict. The defender knows they can't be perfect all the time, so they have an incentive to preemptively attack if the probability of future problems based on their assessment of current information is high enough.

In the case of Gaza there was also an assessment that Hamas were deterred, which were the tinted glasses through which signals were assessed. Israel also assumed a certain shape of an attack, and the minimal mobilisation of Hamas did not fit that expected template. So the intelligence failure was also a failure in security doctrine and institutional culture. The following principles need to be reinforced: (i) don't assume the best, (ii) don't expect rationality and assume a rival is deterred even if they should be, (iii) intention causes action, believe a rival when they say they want to do X instead of projecting your own worldview onto them, (iv) don't become fixated on a particular scenario, keep the distribution (scenario analyses) broad

IAmBroom 10/27/2025|||
> As the attacker, you have the luxury of being right only 30% of the time.

Interesting number you suggested. That's a pretty normal success rate for a carnivore attacking prey.

dominicrose 10/27/2025|||
Avoiding a car accident has a low cost, you just have to take it slowly and be 1 min late to your meeting or whatever, but deciding wether you should attack first based on a small suspicion, that a hell of a problem, because if you're wrong, you're seen as the bad guy. And maybe even if you're right and can't prove it.
energy123 10/27/2025||
> because if you're wrong, you're seen as the bad guy. And maybe even if you're right and can't prove it.

An example of this is France cutting off all support after Israel's initiation of the Six Day War, which followed signals such as Egypt massing troops on the border. The problem for Israel was the lack of strategic depth combined with the geographical low ground, which creates these hair trigger scenarios with no room for error, reducing the threshold to act preemptively. The more abstract problem was the absence of a hegemon in the late 20th century that had security control over West Asia, which is a necessary and sufficient condition for resolving the security dilemma.

drdrek 10/27/2025|||
Actually Gaza and the West Bank are handled by the "Shabak" agency which is the equivalent of the FBI while the "Mossad" agency is only for foreign operations and is equivalent to the CIA

And asking how did they miss something is like asking how come AWS has downtime. But I'm sure you could come to this conclusion on your own if you didn't really want the answer to be something else.

torginus 10/27/2025||
And the article is a huge rant about why security people are stupid for worrying about the most clearly implausible shit ever.
2rsf 10/27/2025|||
a. I am too lazy to search but they probably did, the problem was what was done with the information. Same with 8200 the all mighty signal intelligence corps

b. The Mossad is the equivalent of the CIA, they are not meant to act inside Israel

ta1243 10/27/2025||
> b. The Mossad is the equivalent of the CIA, they are not meant to act inside Israel

For that purpose is Gaza inside or not inside Israel?

rgblambda 10/27/2025|||
Shin Bet (Israeli internal security service) have an Arab desk that covers the West Bank & Gaza.
lifestyleguru 10/27/2025||||
Israel would probably dispute it, but for most of the world Gaza in relation to Israel is "abroad" and not "domestic".
2rsf 10/27/2025|||
Yes (TBD)
ozirus 10/27/2025|||
Domestic intel = Shin Bet, not Mossad
INTPenis 10/27/2025|||
This is exactly the type of comment that will get you mossad'd.
lifestyleguru 10/27/2025||
ok I'll keep you updated, but I don't own any real estate they could "de-Hamasify"
throwaway_dang 10/27/2025|||
Maybe they did but it was permitted to happen to provide the pretext to expand those Greater Israel borders.
smashah 10/27/2025|||
They didn't know about Hannibal Directive Celebration Day? Who told you that?
IAmBroom 10/27/2025|||
Lack of omniscience, infinite computing power, and yottabyte storage facilities?
lifestyleguru 10/27/2025||
Dunno, Microsoft was quite generous with their cloud plan.
smashah 10/27/2025||
They didn't know about the pretense they wanted to spend the following 2+ years making unlimited fallacious justifications for committing a live-streamed holocaust of children? Who told you that?
smashah 10/27/2025|
Very true, unfortunately there's no password strong enough to stop Malaysian Airlines ground crew from loading a pallet full of Mossad-rigged walkie talkies on my flight from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing via conveniently-placed-NATO-AWACS-infested airspace.

2FA isn't going to protect me from cruising altitude walkie talkie detonation and having the debris scattered over an impossibly wide area.

I guess the best thing to do is not take an airline of a country that has recently showed public support for Gaza specifically during a humanitarian visit in the months prior to my flight.

Thankfully none of this is true and everything the mainstream media and governments tell us are true - imagine if things weren't as they seemed?.. Craziness... Back to my password manager!