Posted by FromTheArchives 2 days ago
*, *:before, *:after {
box-sizing: border-box;
}What if the page has mixed language content?
e.g. on the /r/france/ reddit. The page says lang="en" because every subreddit shares the same template. But actual content were generated by French speaking users.
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Reference/...
For example, you can have CSS generate the appropriate quotation marks even in nested contexts so you can painlessly use <q> tags to markup scholarly articles even if the site itself is translated and thus would have different nested quotation marks for, say, the French version embedding an English quote including a French quote or vice versa.
In your Reddit example, the top level page should be in the user’s preferred site language with individual posts or other elements using author’s language: <html lang=en>…<div lang=fr>
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Reference/...
But again there's mixed language issue
Or do users even bother to choose the correct lang?
> Browsers, search engines, assistive technologies, etc. can leverage it to:
> - Get pronunciation and voice right for screen readers
> - Improve indexing and translation accuracy
> - Apply locale-specific tools (e.g. spell-checking)
1) Pronounciation is either solved by a) automatic language detection, or b) doesn't matter. If I am reading a book, and I see text in a language I recognize, I will pronounce it correctly, just like the screen reader will. If I see text in a language I don't recognize, I won't pronounce it correctly, and neither will the screen reader. There's no benefit to my screen reader pronouncing Hungarian correctly to me, a person who doesn't speak Hungarian. On the off chance that the screen reader gets it wrong, even though I do speak Hungarian, I can certainly tell that I'm hearing english-pronounced hungarian. But there's no reason that the screen reader will get it wrong, because "Mit csináljunk, hogy boldogok legyünk?" isn't ambiguous. It's just simply Hungarian, and if I have a Hungarian screen reader installed, it's trivial to figure that out.
2) Again, if you can translate it, you already know what language it is in. If you don't know what language it is in, then you can't read it from a book, either.
3) See above. Locale is mildly useful, but the example linked in the article was strictly language, and spell checking will either a) fail, in the case of en-US/en-UK, or b) be obvious, in the case of 1) above.
The lang attribute adds nothing to the process.
Even if language identification was very simple, you're still putting the burden on the user's tools to identify something the writer already knew.
And the fact is that the author of the web page doesn’t know the language of the content, if there’s anything user contributed. Should you have to label every comment on HN as “English”? That’s a huge burden on literally every internet user. Other written language has never specified its language. Imposing data-entry requirements on humans to satisfy a computer is never the ideal solution.
Do you have any reference of that or are you implying we shouldn't support the other thousands[0] of languages in use just because they don't have a big enough user base?
> And the fact is that the author of the web page doesn’t know the language of the content, if there’s anything user contributed. Should you have to label every comment on HN as “English”? That’s a huge burden on literally every internet user.
In the case of Hacker News or other pages with user submitted and multi-language content, you can just mark the comments' lang attribute to the empty string, which means unknown and falls back to detection. Alternatively, it's possible to let the user select the language (defaulting to their last used or an auto-detected one), Mastodon and BlueSky do that. For single language forums and sites with no user-generated content, it's fine to leave everything as the site language.
> Other written language has never specified its language. Imposing data-entry requirements on humans to satisfy a computer is never the ideal solution.
There's also no "screen reader" nor "auto translation" in other written language. Setting the content language helps to improve accessibility features that do not exist without computers.
> It states the cargo culted reasons, but not the actual truth
This dismisses existing explanations without engaging with the mentioned reasons. The following text then doesn't provide any arguments for this.
> Pronunciation is either solved by a) automatic language detection, or b) doesn't matter.
There are more possibilities than a and b. For example, it may matter for other things than pronunciation only. Also it may improve automatic detection or make automatic detection superfluous.
> If I am reading a book [...] I will pronounce it correctly, just like the screen reader will. If I see text in a language I don't recognize, I won't pronounce it correctly, and neither will the screen reader.
A generalization of your own experience to all users and systems. Screen readers aim to convey information accessibly, not mirror human ignorance.
> There's no reason that the screen reader will get it wrong, because <hungarian sentence> isn't ambiguous
This is circular reasoning. The statement is based on the assumption that automatic detection is always accurate - which is precisely what is under debate.
> If you can translate it, you already know what language it is in.
This a non sequitur. Even if someone can translate text, that doesn't mean software or search engines can automatically identify that language.
> The lang attribute adds nothing to the proces.
This absolute claim adds nothing to the logic.
I know what you’re thinking, I forgot the most important snippet of them all for writing HTML:
<div id="root"></div> <script src="bundle.js"></script>
Lol.
-> Ok, thanx, now I do feel like I'm missing an inside joke.
To quote the alt text: "Saying 'what kind of an idiot doesn't know about the Yellowstone supervolcano' is so much more boring than telling someone about the Yellowstone supervolcano for the first time."
I had a teacher who became angry when a question was asked about a subject he felt students should already be knowledgeable about. "YOU ARE IN xTH GRADE AND STILL DON'T KNOW THIS?!" (intentional shouting uppercase). The fact that you learned it yesterday doesn't mean all humans in the world also learned it yesterday. Ask questions, always. Explain, always.