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Posted by zdw 10/28/2025

The decline of deviance(www.experimental-history.com)
313 points | 245 commentspage 3
martchat 10/29/2025|
I believe there is some merit in the fact that everything is overanalyzed now. Every new trend, fashion, or viral phenomenon is analyzed and commoditized so quickly that it kills its originality. Movies are generated, not directed (Netflix). Music lacks character — where are the crazy, drunken stars from the ’70s, ’80s, and ’90s?

I also agree that there may be some connection with the use of mobile phones, which has actually made personal contact more difficult. Previously, if you wanted to discuss something with your neighbor or an old acquaintance, you had to call them and talk. Now it’s often just a chat. People are less aggressive and less willing to take risks.

It reminds me of an excellent Stanisław Lem sci-fi novel, Return from the Stars, where an astronaut returning from a mission finds that people on Earth have neutralized themselves from all aggressive impulses, and he is perceived as a wild and dangerous “prehistoric” man.

Another factor could also be that populations are growing older, which means less risky behavior and fewer “youth” crimes.

On the other hand, perhaps the norm to which we should compare the 20th century is the Middle Ages, when for hundreds of years everyone lived in essentially the same way.

modo_mario 10/29/2025||
Hasn't there been a massive drop in average testosterone as well? In the context of that I remember a study which basically said increasing testosterone led to a higher chance of expressing opinions that didn't fit the in group consensus.

I wonder if this plays a role even if only ever so slightly

ajkjk 10/29/2025||
personal theory is that it has to do with connectedness. everyone is much more aware of everyone else now, and how to act, so it's far easier to not act out. In the past there were many more isolated subcultures, people disconnected from mainstream culture, etc, and they could stay that way for a very long time. Now there's a strong normative pressure, so they become more 'normal', that is, boring.
robocat 10/28/2025||
Weird that the article uses so many statistical averages, while trying to discuss outliers.

Edit: average is the wrong word - measuring outliers is hard.

gxs 10/29/2025||
It makes sense that everything would converge on the same time

When every company does the same market “research” to figure out what appeals to consumers, over time they are all going to arrive at the same conclusion

As this particular style becomes familiar to people, it only reinforces the preference and now you’re stuck in a cycle

This is why imo there will always be room for a startups - eventually someone deviates from the path and strikes gold, eventually a company is *actually* courageous, does something bold, and moves an industry forward

We are unfortunately getting to a point though where giant tech companies have a stranglehold on resources and it hinders innovation

evolighting 10/29/2025||
Some concept from evolutionary biology: if the environment remains stable, dominant competitors can sustain their advantage indefinitely, ultimately excluding all other rivals.

This pattern seems to apply equally to the "lifestyle" of human societies. When societal environments are too stable, existing advantage groups or models will continually reinforce their status, resources become concentrated and monopolized, and new changes and opportunities become increasingly scarce.

In other words, what we may be facing is a social system lacking ecological disturbances—a world that is so stable as to suppress evolution.

tolerance 10/29/2025||
People are deeply concerned over their own wellbeing and that of their others’ while being bombarded by a collage of choices that indicate how to either preserve or compromise their lives and the associated consequences and as a result of this they are either reaching for things safe and familiar or leaping toward new ideals to a rough jingle of outcome and in truth there is such a surplus of “weird” going around and no one with the guts to determine the “good kinds of weirdness” from the bad kinds and all this guy has to offer us is countless links, fourteen footnotes and a glib call to action.
superconduct123 10/28/2025||
One thing I've noticed with the younger generation is they are much more analytical and "in their heads"

They over-analyze and overthink everything a lot more than past generations which can be good and bad

Probably due to the internet and more access to information

For example when I was a kid you would watch a movie or play a video game and not think about it that much.

Whereas now its all about RT scores, metacritic, review megathreads, unboxing, reaction videos, video essay breakdowns/explainers , tv show podcasts

Analyzing/reviewing/meta-content has never been bigger

pixl97 10/28/2025||
>They over-analyze and overthink everything a lot more than past generations

Maybe we're just used to past generations that were poisoned by atmospheric lead from gasoline making under thought decisions.

echelon 10/28/2025||
> Whereas now its all about RT scores, review megathreads, unboxing, reaction videos

Is that them or is that content and algorithms seeping into every possible nook and cranny of the human experience? Creators seeking to tap value off of popular brands and fans trying to find more content and falling into a long tail?

We're making more content, taking up more time, resulting in people who are stimulated all the time. Busy all the time.

dluan 10/29/2025||
Qualifying myself on this topic to say I've written websites with `<blink></blink>` in them.

Half of this reads like a reactionary grasping at straws, throwing together a bunch of unrelated things to try and bemoan a "return to weird, but my version of weird". When in reality, the explanation is more straight forward: you're old man.

The culture is a live and well. I've lived through ircs and Discord groups. It's out there, it's just better gatekept to match the existing community now. Berghain doesn't just let in any sex pest. Furthermore, this is incredibly English speaking limited view of culture. Chinese and Japanese web culture is alive and well, you just don't know the language and so you can't participate.

The other reason for a lot of these shallow complaints - architecture being samey, websites being samey, branding being samey - is capitalism, which always as a rule tends towards consolidation. Things become same and boring because they figured out how to make money with it.

And using mass shootings as some sort of logical counter factual is some of the wildest, most insane strawmanning I've seen on the internet.

What a garbage article, I feel dumber for having read it. How in the world this guy manages to command a veneer of intellectualism is hilarious.

hattmall 10/29/2025||
I definitely think you are missing quite a bit of the overall idea. The author is foremost creating imagery with the statistics. The mass shooting thing tracks with what the point is. IMO it doesn't seem to be simply, "you're old man".

Yes culture is still going on many things are still happening, that's not being denied. The thesis is that deviance from societal norms is decreasing. The deviance that finds it's way into societal norms is what we look back at and consider new culture. Therefore the less the pot is stirring with deviance the less culture is evolving. Which I really think IS a valid point and reasoning. I don't think the author is wrong, at least not about what he is talking about.

BUT, I think the author is looking for deviance in some of the wrong places. I don't think it's age, but more of position, both societal, and geographic. Not unlike the accumulation of wealth, where the top percent has been increasing their share over time I think that deviance driven culture is accumulating in much the same fashion.

My guess is that the author lives somewhere in typical city-surrounded-by-suburbs-urban type area, where most people spend the bulk of their time in some sort of gainful employment that mostly benefits the wealthy. Typical weekends are spent paying attention to sports or music events and going out to eat at restaurants. Most people probably take a couple vacations to another area for a few days a year or maybe go on a cruise or something. Having a passport is common.

The examples and ideas he evaluates are deviance WITHIN that framework, but not deviance FROM that framework. In the past much of culture was spawned by that deviance, the deviance that exists within the idea of the typical urban/suburban worker.

Where deviance is abundantly evident today, that you could miss if you aren't in position is to be completely outside of that framework. That's the deviance today.

Some examples: The percentage of homeschooling children is rising rapidly. The number of SxS deaths annually is increasing at a huge rate. The adoption of eBikes, solar panels, off grid living, tiny homes, non-standard pets, lake culture, trail rides, guerilla playgrounds, CPNS, take-overs, pull up concerts, unlicnensed popups, dump truck beaches, etc. There's a TON Of deviance but it's concentrated around the same groups and it's coordinate but at the same time it ends up shutting people out that aren't in those groups, so it really is this sort of cultural accumulation that's not spread as evenly as it once was. And ultimately those situations ARE spawning new culture, trends, music, styles and products etc.

chubot 10/30/2025||
BUT, I think the author is looking for deviance in some of the wrong places

In the section at the end, he does admit that possibility:

The internet ethnographer Katherine Dee argues that the most interesting art is happening in domains we don’t yet consider “art”, like social media personalities, TikTok sketch comedy, and Pinterest mood boards.

https://culture.ghost.io/why-its-hard-to-argue-about-cultura...

I think that is true

But I also think he's right about movies, music, architecture, corporate logos, etc.

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off grid living, tiny homes, non-standard pets, lake culture, trail rides, guerilla playgrounds, CPNS, take-overs, pull up concerts, unlicnensed popups, dump truck beaches, etc

Hm interesting. It feels like the Internet has made off-grid living more feasible. Well I only know from YouTube :-/

But from watching those videos, it does seem like there is a ton of information that can be a matter of life and death ... which you can either find out (1) the hard way (2) from a book or a neighbor (the old ways), or (3) through the Internet !

So the Internet can make new(-ish) things more possible, but I also think it has a dampening/homogenizing effect, as many others said in this thread

a-hill 10/29/2025||
Do you have any recommendations of where to look for Japanese web culture as I have really struggled to find anything. Japanese tech blog websites like Qiita and zenn seem to just post bland tech articles
owenversteeg 10/29/2025|
Among the hundred ninety comments here there are countless claimed examples of modern deviance. To list some: furries, blue hair, Skibidi Toilet, queer culture, protest music, modern hip-hop, violence on TV, kpop, modern protests, online subcultures, and Berghain.

The problem is that it is all standardized, commoditized, low-risk, polished, neatly packaged for easy consumption. You can buy a physical plastic Skibidi Toilet at Walmart; not one but countless nameless skibidi toilet SKUs, injection-molded in China in volumes that would boggle the mind and shipped across the globe for pennies. You can identify with a unique gender and sexual identity and Mastercard will sponsor the event, with free drinks (synthetic syrups shipped worldwide in bulk bladders served in the same plastic cup, conveniently conforming to global regulations enabling concurrent use in Chile, Canada and Curaçao.

It does not help matters that most of your clothes, food, and tchotchkes similarly spent some of their disturbed existence sailing the globe in bulk-shipped liquid form.

A good litmus test is time travel. Go back and ask anyone in town about the capital-D Deviants. You will quickly find deviancy defying all my complaints. You will find risky, rough-edged, tough-to-swallow deviancy lurking in every corner and every corner will be unique. If someone dares to dye their hair or start a protest or dance weird then it will be truly unique. The liquids which with they drink and dye will be local. The words they chant at protests, write on signs, speak in hushed tones will be in local accents, with local affectations, in the local languages. The clothes they wear, the things they eat, and even the dark corners they hide in will be unique. Now, of course, even the corners are the same. They are lit brightly with the same LEDs, they are constructed to international building codes, they are made from smooth featureless sheets extruded from nameless factories. They conform.

NoraCodes 10/29/2025|
Are there actually fewer genuinely unique deviant subcultures out there? Maybe. But I've seen more than one dark corner, all very different, most not very welcoming to outsiders, and none sponsored by MasterCard. There are plenty of places people go where they can't use their real names for fear of losing employment, just like in the bad old days; I think you might just not be spending time in them.
owenversteeg 10/29/2025||
Of course not everything is sponsored by Mastercard. In my small country - the Netherlands - there was a small, unique gay community for many years. It had its own very specific culture. That is dead and gone now; and indeed, its corpse is sponsored by Mastercard (an American corporation.)

You can escape sponsorship, but homogenization is inescapable. I'm not sure where you are on Earth, but I have traveled far and wide and the list of places where newly-built corners are not generic extrusions of glass and steel and aluminum and drywall is short and grows shorter by the day.

NoraCodes 10/29/2025||
Once we beat the fash, come to Chicago and I'll take you to a few leather bars :)
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