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Posted by zdw 5 days ago

The decline of deviance(www.experimental-history.com)
312 points | 244 commentspage 7
NoboruWataya 5 days ago|
The article makes some good points but I think a lot of it is cyclical. Drinking, the very first activity mentioned in the article, was hardly considered weird or deviant for many of us growing up. I'm sure there are cultural factors at play here (I grew up in Ireland) but when I was a teenager it was the non-drinkers who were weird. Drinking was what our parents had done and their parents before them. Some of the more benign illegal drugs like weed were not so common that it was weird not to do them, but they were arguably common enough that they lost their weird status.

The decline in teen pregnancies can probably be explained (in part at least) by better access to abortion and contraceptives.

And as for the internet becoming more homogenous, this is a super very complaint on HN but I have long doubted it. I already know there are parts of the modern internet that are weird as fuck to me (just yesterday I read an article posted here about "gooning culture"). Objectively, the internet is just so much bigger now than it was then that it is statistically implausible that there isn't more weird stuff on it. HNers (myself included) are just in a relatively normal bubble.

But certainly the fact that we are all constantly online now can only encourage homogeneity in thought and behaviour.

renewiltord 5 days ago||
This is an interesting set of observations. One curious thing I've noticed is the moving thing. Frequently people online will say things like "You expect me to pick up my entire life and leave my friends and family behind to go somewhere just to find a job? People should be able to live where they want" or something of the sort. Leaving out the housing affordability part of that, I found the sentiment odd when reading it but with the context of this article I see it was that I was a blind man trying to figure out an elephant by holding his tail.

I've moved across continents so many times now in search of making it, and I feel like I have made it now. I could not have imagined the other way of doing things. But I suppose kids these days can make it wherever they are.

Some of these things do make sense, though, just out of accessibility. Once everyone can access everything, most will likely go watch 'the best'. That tends to a power-law now that access is cheap.

In some sense, web forums have also trended towards this. You'll get the exact same commentary on HN as on Reddit as on Digg. That kind of uniformity was hard in the old web forum days. We are all part of the same big community: the once hilariously-named 'netizen' is now real.

KaiserPro 5 days ago||
THe article is mashing large socio-economic factors together to draw a false conclusion

In the 90s, it was _the done thing_ to go out, get drunk and fuck someone. It was the cultural expectation. I felt pressure to do it, and was deeply troubled at my inability to persuade people to fuck me.

none of that was deviant

Violent crime dropping across the board is a good thing.

The drop in northern ireland's antisocial behaavior is a Feature not a bug. Up until 2000 there was an active civil war, and youth violence was a pathway used by both unionists and republicans to recruit, train and execute the on going war. youth violence dropping is a fucking brilliant thing.

The points later on about sameness is also not surprising. Most people do not like sticking out. For example in the 1950s it would take a _very_ special person to build a japanese style interior in their house. The same for japan, you're not going to see loads of english parlours either.

But culture is global now, which means we all vaguely conform to global standards. Why? because we all see much more of the globe than our parents or grandparents.

But the _key_ point is that the complaints aren't new.

This is just nostalgia with graphs.

megamix 5 days ago||
Definitely internet. When I’m not online, I goof out infinitely.
unraveller 5 days ago||
Weirdness itself is no personal virtue to be admired, there is already an epidemic of Quirk Chungus type personalities to avoid. This guy too offers an erratic yet safe gish gallop article blaming no one for the loss of our something.

Johnathan Bi explains [1] the stagnant output of deviant/contrarian creatives better as a lack of respect for artistic foundations after being influenced by the rabid 3rd or 4th generation in whatever artistic movement.

[1] https://youtu.be/YfLj1pHGfT4?t=1358

seydor 5 days ago|
Weirdness is necessary in every cultural bubble. Christianity was weird once, as was gayness, as was rationalism, market economy etc.
ramesh31 5 days ago||
Chalk up one more nightmarish facet of modern life almost soley attributable to housing costs. I'd love nothing more than to work a part time job and practice the Sitar all day. But now that equals homelessness.
BrenBarn 5 days ago|
Housing cost itself is one more nightmarish facet of modern life largely attributable to wealth inequality.
bentt 5 days ago||
There’s no more The Man.
lapcat 5 days ago||
A number of comments have suggested lead poisoning, but I think that's far too facile an answer. Perhaps it explains a bit, but does lead poisoning make you prefer original movies to sequels or to have better musical taste? If so, I say bring back the lead! ;-)

The article author presents a life expectancy explanation, but I think that's even less plausible than lead poisoning. When I was a teenager, I wasn't thinking about how long I would live, and it would have made no difference whether life expectancy was 60, 70, 80, or 90. Does it make any sense at all that teens drink alcohol and smoke pot if they believe they'll live to 70 but not if they believe they'll live to 90?

One thing that has definitely changed is parenting styles. I was a stereotypical "latchkey kid". Between the end of school and the beginning of dinner, I was free to go anywhere and do anything with no adult supervision. This was very common among GenX. However, later generations suffered from "helicopter parents" who won't let their kids out of their sight and arranged "playdates" and other organized activities for their kids, not allowing them to spontaneously choose for themselves. I suspect a lot of that was inspired by fear, American's Most Wanted and similar fearmongering about stranger danger and child abduction.

There's probably not just one factor to explain everything. Corporate consolidation, for example, also explains many cultural changes, and such consolidation has been occurring and growing over the course of many decades, even before the internet.

tonyedgecombe 5 days ago||
>However, later generations suffered from "helicopter parents" who won't let their kids out of their sight and arranged "playdates" and other organized activities for their kids, not allowing them to spontaneously choose for themselves.

I wonder how much of that is down to car culture. The amount of traffic I had to deal with as a child was tiny compared what my children faced.

lapcat 5 days ago||
> I wonder how much of that is down to car culture. The amount of traffic I had to deal with as a child was tiny compared what my children faced.

I don't see how this is related at all. Car culture was already firmly established 50-60 years ago, and I haven't noticed any significant changes in traffic. Of course the traffic level depends on exactly where you live. Anyway, the suburban area I live in now has no more traffic than the suburban areas I lived in as a child.

tonyedgecombe 4 days ago||
This chart only goes back to 1993 but you can see the trend, it was similar before that.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/185579/us-vehicle-miles-...

Edit: Also https://www.statista.com/statistics/1619822/licensed-drivers...

lapcat 4 days ago||
The US population grew by almost 100 million over 30 years, so anything that people do, such as drive cars, is going to increase along with an increase in the number of people.

The neighborhood in which I now live did not exist when I was a child: the area was prairie land at the time. So in that sense, there has been an increase in traffic. Nonetheless, the car traffic in my current neighborhood is no greater than the car traffic in my childhood neighborhoods. The children in this neighborhood are not beset by cars. And there were no children living here when it was an empty prairie, so things haven't gotten worse for them.

pixl97 5 days ago||
The original movies thing probably had more to do with ownership of theaters and IP spread over a much larger number of companies, as you say with the corporate consolidation. A huge amount of consolidation has occurred and it's not something instantly noticeable.

For anyone saying bring back the lead, most of the problems there weren't obvious or out in the open. You're bringing back even more abuse and dark things.

lapcat 5 days ago||
> For anyone saying bring back the lead

Sigh. Nobody is saying that.

pixl97 5 days ago||
Dear sir, surely you jest! You were the one saying bring back the lead

>but does lead poisoning make you prefer original movies to sequels or to have better musical taste? If so, I say bring back the lead! ;-)

lapcat 5 days ago|||
I don't even know what to make of these replies. The "generous" interpretations are that you're trolling me, or you're a non-native speaker of English.

Either that, or you've personally suffered from severe lead poisoning.

supportengineer 5 days ago|||
He is jesting... and stop calling me Shirley.
Perenti 5 days ago|
Not all of this is as straightforward as the author seems to suggest. In particular, I believe the massive increase in mass shootings is only in one country. Part of it is, I believe, the fear-mongering our glorious leaders and the media love so much.
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