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Posted by rom1v 3 days ago

What we talk about when we talk about sideloading(f-droid.org)
1443 points | 596 commentspage 3
erelong 2 days ago|
There's a lot of things to be said on these topics, it probably is worth trying to keep android "open" here, but there's also a lot of alternative routes to consider and in the long run I think maybe Android is a lost cause (?) to be abandoned

The big alternative is mobile linux or linux mobile, which is akin to desktop linux in the 2000s maybe in lagging behind the competing operating systems. An influx of interest in these operating systems and related hardware might make this discussion more moot (software like: postmarketos, mobian, ubuntu touch, and so on. hardware like: pinephone, raspberry pi used as a phone?, librem phones, and so on.)

Some progress has been made to have android phones run on linux with projects like postmarketos and mobian. Again, more people just focusing on building these projects, especially with the help of LLMs, might make this discussion less necessary.

F-Droid could also pivot a bit to promoting more linux mobile initiatives.

Apple should be called out as much as Google here for already being closed off.

Both platforms (ios and Android) could probably be appealed to through the incentive of "developer openness being good for business" - it probably helps both companies to make more money by making "sideloading" easy. If they both essentially become closed, this opens up a giant incentive for linux mobile to take over. (Maybe that is something we should root for?)

On the hardware side, we need some ios/android alternative phones. I've seen some people post that you can attach cell dongles to raspberry pis and use those as phones (?). Maybe more diy cell phone projects would be nice to see.

I guess the FSF is trying to create a Librephone; initiatives like this are overdue: https://liliputing.com/free-software-foundation-announces-a-...

Not sure what else to add, the writing has been on the wall that Google and Apple are trying to be closed source systems, so generally linux mobile (and/or *BSD mobile, if that's to be a thing in the future) need more attention.

This is probably a good moment to consider the alternatives and the seemingly predictable trajectory of where things are going.

pabs3 2 days ago|
Librephone is mainly about reverse engineering firmware and other binary blobs, not creating new phones.

https://librephone.fsf.org/FAQ.html

ge96 3 days ago||
Tangent about open source development

As a person that tried the Pine64 ecosystem and not being able to will drivers/C++ apps into existence (like I can with web/cross platform), I did not contribute much other than buying the device/doing some videos on YT. (I bought: PP, PPP, PineBook, PineNote, PineTab)

It depended on few people working on it eg. through Discord communities

Anyway point is I saw Expensify I think they have these GitHub PRs which have $ values on them, would be interesting to take that approach, just pay for it literally eg. a GoFundMe for a feature.

ex. https://github.com/Expensify/App/issues/73681

qwertox 2 days ago||
I have 3 personal apps, which are not published anywhere, which I have installed on all of my own 10 Android devices. They are the reason why I have not switched to an iPhone/iPad and i absolutely rely on those apps.

Why on earth do I need to register with Google to use them?

bagol 3 days ago||
Installing software via Google play store is the actual side loading. You don't install it yourself, Google install it for you.
noisy_boy 2 days ago|
I wonder if compiling and installing from .tgz source code is sideloading instead installing via apt/dnf.
ekjhgkejhgk 3 days ago||
What is to be done?

Install LineageOS or GrapheneOS?

I feel that the root problem is that there aren't enough highly skilled low level developers willing to spend their time writing free software for mobile phones. Why do we have Linux and things around it? Because a lot of very skilled developers decided to work on it and offer it to the world.

n3t 3 days ago|
Most (some sources say ~80%) Linux contributors are paid by their employer.
ekjhgkejhgk 2 days ago||
I hope that's true. Do you have a source?
n3t 2 days ago||
"About 80% of kernel contributors are paid – by their employer!" -- https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/how-linux-is-buil... (from 2025)

Check out "Most active 5.10 employers" table (it's from 2020) on https://lwn.net/Articles/839772/

"Seventy-five percent of all kernel development is done by developers who are being paid for their work" -- https://www.linuxfoundation.org/press/press-release/the-linu... (from 2012)

ekjhgkejhgk 1 day ago||
This is actually a super encouraging thing. I wonder why it doesn't work as well for the Gnu apps.
kazinator 3 days ago||
They wanted to call it freeloading, but showed a bit of self-restraint.

Whenever you side load anything, you are robbing someone's app store of income. You are not visiting their portal to be exposed to ads, you are not seeing ads in the middle of an application, you are not paying for anything.

Or at least, not paying to them. The only streaming service I pay for in my household is Japanese TV, which uses a side-loaded application. I'm freeloading on the Android TV platform because I only paid for the hardware, and for a streaming service not related any Google revenue funnels whatsoever.

That's what it's about.

It's either a derogatory term for "software loading" or an euphemism for "freeloading", or both.

Liftyee 3 days ago|
I bought the hardware, for the price they chose to sell it at. Why should I be obligated to use any of their services, if I can avoid it?

I'm not sure if your comment is satire. So I'll respond as is.

"Not providing potential further income" is not "robbing"... what is being stolen from them? Something they never had in the first place? When I lose a bet I willingly entered, am I being "robbed" of the gains?

Furthermore, who is losing if I go to F-Droid to install an open source app people wrote with no expectation of income? If Google had a better app, I would have installed it from there. Too bad everything is riddled with ads detracting from the core purpose.

kazinator 3 days ago||
> I bought the hardware, for the price they chose to sell it at. Why should I be obligated to use any of their services, if I can avoid it?

Their answer would be something like, that the hardware vendor has nothing to do with them and is also a freeloader, taking advantage of their software ecosystem to sell hardware.

vezycash 3 days ago||
Everyone developer who worked hard to make windows phone die. Hope you're happy.
Nextgrid 3 days ago||
> who worked hard to make windows phone die

You mean Microsoft? No backwards-compatibility with Windows Mobile to begin with (so companies can't reuse their existing investment into line-of-business apps on actually nice modern devices either), then they reset the ecosystem 2 times (once during the WP7->WP8 transition, another time during the Windows 10 transition).

actionfromafar 3 days ago||
Well put. Microsoft following the "Double barrel shotgun, apply one wad per foot." (Reset ecosystem 2 times.)
rcarmo 3 days ago|||
I was a telco product manager at the time and I can tell you right away that it wasn't developers that killed Windows Phone. This book (https://asokan.org/operation-elop/) tells part of the story, but the telcos I worked for (and competed with) definitely played a big role.
paul_h 3 days ago||
That book is new to me. I wrote https://paulhammant.com/2013/05/07/android-and-the-art-of-wa... on Google vs MSFT and phones before the book. Mine's a perspective that doesn't mention Nokia or its leadership.

I did own a Treo and loved it up to the OG iPhone - I repaired the eff out of it in the hope that something worthy would come along. I kidded myself I would write apps for it. I'd previously played with Simbian tech (and met a very bitter Simbian team dev in London one "eXtreme Tuesday Club" meetup in 2003). I had a Psion Organizer way back and Palm pilot. I thought Palm's WebOS stood a chance. I still own a Ubuntu Phone that I don't use - single script QML apps would have been the killer, but all that's passed now.

terminalshort 3 days ago|||
Let's not pretend that MSFT would have been one tiny bit better here.
Andrex 3 days ago|||
I am, mostly because Windows Phone 7 always did what Google is attempting to do here.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4229029/can-you-install-...

At least we got 10+ years of real sideloading on consumer devices thanks to WP7's death.

sergeykish 3 days ago|||
Windows RT "sideloading" denied for ordinary users, costly for Line-of-Business apps (2012).

Microsoft UWP only Microsoft Store. Microsoft backtracked their walled garden Windows plans for a while as result of Windows Phone fiasco.

Yes, we are.

efilife 3 days ago||
I don't understand this sentence. Can someone rephrase?
hakube 3 days ago||
It's not "sideloading". It's called installing software on your own device!
ptrl600 3 days ago||
Will I be allowed to add keys to verify developers over ADB?
blackcatsec 3 days ago|
I think one thing the internet community, particularly the likes of folks here who dominate the HN readership, is to stop listening to Google or using Google-derived services. The problem is everyone goggles Google's googleys every time they put something out: Chrome, Android, Kubernetes, QUIC, BBR, Analytics, Gmail, GCP, Go. And y'all continue to fucking do it.

I can't even go into my workplace and get the company to not install Google Chrome and use Microsoft Edge on Windows (mind you, Edge is now based on Chromium) because everyone is so far up Google's ass that they must run CHROME and not another CHROMIUM browser because MICROSOFT. It's fucking insanity. It's taken as a default.

Stop using their products. Stop giving Google so much power over the fucking internet. Meanwhile I go on internet forums, IRC, and places like HN and people still fucking cry about Microsoft as if somehow we're in the 1990s. Like literally Gen Z wasn't even born in the 1990s and they decry Microsoft because us Millennials and Gen X continue to think Microsoft is the absolutely worst evil ever and Google is like the patron saint of the internet.

Apologies for the little bit of pro Microsoft rant here, but the point I'm trying to make is we should evaluate both Google and Apple through the same lens that we all give Microsoft shit for.

DeGooglify your brain, and then the rest of the world will begin to follow. Stop changing everything in your fucking services to kubernetes and istio. Don't switch your projects over to Go. Stop letting them run everything.

Like every time Google releases a new piece of technology the entire industry jumps on their tallywhacker. And that just continues to cement their legacy in all of these stacks.

blackcatsec 3 days ago|
Nah screw it, it's late and I'm unable to sleep and gonna rant a little more.

Microsoft made changes to force consumer users to create Microsoft accounts to login to their PCs and you can go on Youtube and see 500 videos on how to use some bespoke tool to bypass this that has racked up thousands of views because some 'nerd' who literally walks around with a Macbook and an iPhone told them that it's the most evil thing Microsoft could make you do.

Meanwhile, once Google completes this transition on Android, you'll basically be forced to have a Google or Apple account to install any software on your devices, backup and restore the device, etc. And yet folks that dominate these boards are just like "yah that kinda sucks but like, ya know, ya know? ya know!?"

I agree that open software and even open hardware is a good thing. But both Apple and Google have done an incredible amount of damage to the open ecosystem of the web over the last 20 years in so many more ways than Microsoft could have ever dreamed of doing back in the 1990s.

And nerds not only let it happen, but embraced it, camped out in days-long lines wearing diapers to buy the latest shiny overpriced brick they could put in their pocket so they could look cool to all of their friends for a whole 12 months before the next one came out and made them look like a povo. And now walking around with a Macbook at college is like wearing the latest fashion trend because everyone has to show off that they're completely irresponsible with money and spend $2000 for something they could realistically get for under $1000 just so they can show off that they're in the same social class as everyone else.

It's the most infuriating thing to happen to the internet and technology.

Oh, and then to add on, they all get jobs in the tech industry and throw a fucking entitled childish hissy fit when their company hands them a $1000 Windows PC that's got monitoring and security software with no Admin rights on it instead of the $2500 Macbook Pro that they get root access to because mommy and daddy never told them no.

BlackFly 2 days ago|||
DMA in Europe required Microsoft to enable offline accounts without special tricks. When a government is doing their job properly they patch up holes in the laws that allow behavior that the majority consider to be against the prevailing norms.

You can also uninstall Edge and all the other Microsoft bloatware. Google on Android is actually one of the worse offenders in Europe for not being able to uninstall software as they consider far too many things to be critical to the operating system (for example, search).

blackcatsec 2 days ago||
Sure, but that isn't the prevailing norm anymore? What hardware doesn't effectively make you sign up for an account? Even Google does this under the hood with devices managed via Android Enterprise. Managed Google Play devices just create a device-specific account under the hood that isn't visible to the user. But it's still there. The requirement for this and the software infrastructure is still there.

Hell, even internet-of-shit devices make you sign up for an account to manage the hardware you buy (Ring, Nest, smart LEDs, etc.)

I'd give that on pure number of raw technical devices deployed to the internet today, some form of account and/or internet connectivity is a requirement moreso than not.

le-mark 2 days ago|||
Nice rant, I’m here for it. This is what I miss from the early internet, a good old fashioned rant. It may go off the rails from time to time, but consistent in its frustration.

Note some companies give Mac books with admin, smaller companies though. It can be a real shock to go to a large company and get a locked down windows machine. What the boss can now see how much time I really spend working!?!

blackcatsec 2 days ago||
Thanks! Happy to oblige! lol
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