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Posted by Amorymeltzer 1 day ago

Boring is what we wanted(512pixels.net)
334 points | 190 commentspage 2
827a 19 hours ago|
Personally: I am extremely excited for a world where we have silicon that's capable of driving triple-A level gaming in the ~20w TDP envelope. M5 might actually be the first real glimpse we've had into this level of efficiency.
Huxley1 16 hours ago||
I can relate. Most users just want stable, quiet performance improvements, not a revolution every update. Do you care more about performance improvements or new features?
Normal_gaussian 23 hours ago||
I've heard that the M-series chips with metal do great on the whole small model with low latency front; but I have no practical experience doing this yet. I'm hoping to add some local LLM/STT function to my office without heating my house.

I'm uncertain as to whether any M series mac will be performant enough and the M1/M2 mac mini's specifically, or whether there are features in the M3/M4/M5 architecture that make it worth my while to buy new.

Are these incremental updates actually massive in the model performance and latency space, or are they just as small or smaller?

trailbits 20 hours ago||
As someone who purchased their first M-series Mac this year (M4 pro), I've been thrilled to discover how well it does with local genAI tasks to produce text, code and images. For example openai/gpt-oss-20b runs locally quite well with 24GB memory. If I knew beforehand how performant the Mac would be for these kinds of tasks, I probably would have purchased more RAM in order to load larger models. Performance for genAI is a function of GPU, # of GPU cores, and memory bandwidth. I think your biggest gains are going from a base chip to a pro/max/ultra version with the greater gpu cores and greater bandwidth.
adastra22 17 hours ago||
The M5 is a huge upgrade over the M4 for local inference. They advertise 400% and there is reason to believe this isn’t a totally BS number. They redo the GPU cores to avoid having to emulate certain operations at the core inner loop of LLM inference.

I have an M4 and it is plenty fast enough. But honestly the local models are just not anywhere near the hosted models in quality, due to the lower parameter count, so I haven’t had much success yet.

dur-randir 16 hours ago||
Nah. I want fixes in macos, not "boring" nor "shiny updates".
kentm 1 day ago||
Frankly I’d be incredibly exited if the next Apple OS update was “No new major featurs. Bug fixes, perf optimization, and minor ergonomic improvements only”.
pavlov 1 day ago||
The Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard approach. It was good.
hansvm 20 hours ago|||
A few ergonomics improvements and a wifi stack that doesn't periodically crash could be enough to pull me to the dark side. I like my setup, but I'm lazy and don't really like the process of upgrading computers. Apple taking that load off could buy me as a customer for a decade. The amazing battery life is nothing to sneeze at either.
noitpmeder 23 hours ago||
Sadly this approach is less likely to get the exec a bonus
al_borland 22 hours ago|||
The important work isn’t always glamorous. This is a problem that has tainted the entire industry.

The new pretty stuff feels a lot less magical when it lags or the UI glitches out. Apple sells fluidity and a seamless user experience. They need those bug fixes and an obsessive attention to detail to deliver on what is expected of their products.

yodsanklai 22 hours ago|||
The exec, but also the SWEs. In my company, if all you have to show is minor improvements and bug fixes, you're at risk of being fired.
adastra22 17 hours ago||
That’s sad.
LarsDu88 20 hours ago||
Reading this on my brand new M5 Mac :)
philipwhiuk 22 hours ago||
What happened to the M3 GPU to give it a drop in score?
adastra22 17 hours ago||
Same reason Asahi Linux only supports up to the M2. They completely re-did the system architecture.
wmf 22 hours ago||
When you make a major architecture change (e.g. dynamic caching) there's always one or two workloads that get slower.
kristianp 14 hours ago||
This seems like a straw man. Are reviewers really calling the M5 boring?
fullofdev 1 day ago||
Agree! very happy with the M4 performance.
0xbadcafebee 22 hours ago|
I hate that computers get faster, because it means I'll be forced to buy another laptop. It goes like this:

  - Some developer buys a new laptop
  - Developer writes software (a browser)
  - When the software works "fast enough" on their new laptop, they ship it
  - The software was designed to work on the dev's new laptop, not my old laptop
  - Soon the software is too bloated to work on my old laptop
  - So I have to buy a new laptop to run the software
Before I'd buy a laptop because it had cool new features. But now the only reason I buy a new one is the new software crashes from too little RAM, or runs too slowly. My old laptops work just fine. All the old apps they come with work just fine. Even new native apps work just fine. But they can't run a recent browser. And you can't do anything without a recent browser.

If our computers never got faster, we would still be able to do everything the same that we can do today. But we wouldn't have to put down a grand every couple years to replace a perfectly good machine.

Liftyee 21 hours ago||
I think what you want is for software developers not to write bloated code, instead of computers not getting faster. The bloated code is a result of undisciplined programming and not paying attention to users' devices.

If our computers never got faster, we would never get faster computers (obviously...) to run efficient code even faster. 3D rendering and physics simulation come to mind.

I have noticed what you mention over longer timescales (e.g. a decade). But it's mostly "flashy" software - games, trendy things... Which also includes many websites sadly - the minimum RAM usage for a mainstream website tab these days seems to be around 200MB.

Anecdata: My 12 year old desktop still runs Ubuntu+latest Firefox fine (granted, it probably wouldn't be happy with Windows, and laptops are generally weaker). Counter-anecdata: A friend's Mac Pro from many years ago can't run latest Safari and many other apps, so is quite useless.

LogicHound 3 hours ago|||
> I think what you want is for software developers not to write bloated code, instead of computers not getting faster. The bloated code is a result of undisciplined programming and not paying attention to users' devices.

I am so fed up of hearing this. I would love to optimise my code, but management will always prioritise features over optimisations because that is what drives sales. This happens at almost every company I've worked at.

Also more often than not, I have a huge problem even getting stuff working and having to wrangle co-workers who I have to suffer with that cannot do basic jobs, do not write test and in some cases I've found don't even run the code before submitting PRs. That code then get merged because "it looks good" when there is obvious problems that I can spot in some cases from literally the other side of the room.

0xbadcafebee 5 hours ago|||
> If our computers never got faster, we would never get faster computers (obviously...) to run efficient code even faster. 3D rendering and physics simulation come to mind.

The solution to that is a few decades old: plug-in a 3D rendering card. (Of course there's the whole system bus issue, but that's largely solved by a bigger bus, rather than a faster CPU and more system memory. 3d programs requiring more cpu/memory is largely software bloat)

A few decades ago there was a lot of research into system-level parallel processing. The idea was to just add more machines to scale up processing power (if needed). But because machines got faster, there was less need for it, so the research was mostly abandoned. We would all be using distributed OSes today if it weren't for faster machines.

telchior 20 hours ago|||
I don't know if that's accurate to software developers, but it makes me cringe a bit as a game developer. I upgraded from a 1060 to 4060 and suddenly did waaaay less optimization; it just wasn't top of mind anymore. Of course, that bill still comes due eventually..
jen729w 21 hours ago||
What nonsense.

Name a software that won’t run comfortably on my M1 MacBook Air, now 5 years old.

drob518 21 hours ago|||
I agree. My M1 Air is the best laptop I’ve ever owned (and that goes back 30 years). While I’m finally getting tempted to upgrade by M5, the reality is my M1 is still quite usable. I’m thinking I might use it until it either fails or Apple finally cuts support for it.
vachina 21 hours ago||||
Mac is not the lowest common denominator
Mashimo 11 hours ago|||
Well if you bought the 8GB ram version there might be some apps that won't work that well ;-)
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