Top
Best
New

Posted by LorenDB 10/29/2025

Keep Android Open(keepandroidopen.org)
2693 points | 889 commentspage 2
qiu3344 10/29/2025|
It's a lost cause. We need to focus on pmOS: https://postmarketos.org/

With both Android and Chromium, we're ultimately at Google's mercy.

btw, does anyone know if Huawei is following along with this in their fork?

palata 10/29/2025||
Linux on mobile is fun, but really I want AOSP and its superior security model and SDK.

Now I hate Google as much as the next person, but I also hate all the other Android manufacturers who just don't do better.

Ideally, major manufacturers would all contribute to AOSP to make sure that it runs well with their devices. And then we could install the "AOSP distro" we want, be it GrapheneOS or LineageOS or whatever the fuck we want.

> does anyone know if Huawei is following along with this in their fork?

They suck like all the other manufacturers: they forked as a quick solution, and then decided to go with their own proprietary codebase. If nobody else contributes, why would they make it open source?

What I see from the Linux experience is that the only way it works is to have a copyleft licence and a multitude of contributors. That way it belongs to everybody, and it moves too fast for one single entity to write a proprietary competitor on their own. But AOSP is not that: first it's a permissive licence, and only Google meaningfully contributes to it.

yjftsjthsd-h 10/30/2025||
> Ideally, major manufacturers would all contribute to AOSP to make sure that it runs well with their devices. And then we could install the "AOSP distro" we want, be it GrapheneOS or LineageOS or whatever the fuck we want.

I was under the impression that we got that with GSI, including that Google required a device to support GSIs in order to be certified or something like that. Am I misremembering?

jhasse 10/29/2025||
> btw, does anyone know if Huawei is following along with this in their fork?

They are moving to their own completely proprietary OS called HarmonyOS NEXT.

nicce 10/29/2025||
I just looked into this few days ago and it seems all Android references and Linux kernel are completely removed.
giamma 10/29/2025||
While I understand the reasons behind this campaign, I have mixed feelings about it.

As an iPhone user, I find it frustrating that deploying my own app on my own device requires either reinstalling it every 7 days or paying $100 annually. Android doesn't have this limitation, which makes it simpler and more convenient for personal use.

However, when it comes to publishing apps to the store, I take a different view. In my opinion, stricter oversight is beneficial. To draw an analogy: NPM registry has experienced several supply chain attacks because anyone can easily publish a library. The Maven Central registry for Java libraries, by contrast, requires developers to own the DNS domain used as a namespace for their library. This additional requirement, along with a few extra security checks, has been largely effective in preventing—or at least significantly reducing—the supply chain attacks seen in the NPM ecosystem.

Given the growing threat of such attacks, we need to find ways to mitigate them. I hope that Google's new approach is motivated by security concerns rather than purely economic reasons.

stratts 10/29/2025||
Android already has this strict oversight, in theory, in the form of the Play Store. And yet.

Personally I feel much more safe and secure downloading a random app from F-Droid, than I do from Google, whose supposed watchful eyes have allowed genuine malware to be distributed unimpeded.

marcos100 10/29/2025||
Exaclty. Play Store takes a cut from what it is selling, so they should be more strict what can be sold, not lock the whole platform.
zzo38computer 10/30/2025|||
> In my opinion, stricter oversight is beneficial.

I agree; stricter oversight is beneficial for the official app store. It should not be necessary (and neither should Google's (or Apple's, or Microsoft's, or the government's, etc) verification be necessary) for stuff you install by yourself.

> The Maven Central registry for Java libraries, by contrast, requires developers to own the DNS domain used as a namespace for their library.

This means that you will need to have a domain name, and can verify it for this purpose. (It also has a problem if the domain name is later reassigned to someone else; including a timestamp would be one way to avoid that problem (there are other possibilities as well) but I think Java namespaces do not have timestamps.)

> I hope that Google's new approach is motivated by security concerns rather than purely economic reasons.

Maybe partially, but they would need to do it a better way.

user34283 10/29/2025|||
If the manufacturer wants to offer verification of developers, this should be an optional feature allowing the user to continue the installation of applications distributed by unverified developers in a convenient way.

Making this verification mandatory is an absolute non-starter, ridiculous overreach, and a spit in the face of regulators who are trying to break Google and Apple's monopoly on mobile app distribution.

Yokolos 10/29/2025|||
I don't understand how you can have mixed feelings about this.

> However, when it comes to publishing apps to the store,

This isn't about publishing apps to the Play Store. If that's all this was about, we wouldn't give a shit. The problem is that this applies to all stores, including third party stores like F-Droid, and any app that is installed independently of a store (as an apk file).

> Given the growing threat of such attacks, we need to find ways to mitigate them.

How about the growing threat of right-wing authoritarian control? How do we mitigate that when the only "free" platform is deciding the only way anybody can install any app on their phone is if that app's developer is officially and explicitly allowed by Google?

Hell, how long until those anti-porn groups turn their gaze from video games and Steam onto apps, then pressure MasterCard/Visa and in turn Google to revoke privileges from developers who make any app/game that's too "obscene" (according to completely arbitrary standards)?

There's such a massive tail of consequences that will follow and people are just "well, it's fine if it's about security". No. It's not. This is about arbitrary groups with whatever arbitrary bullshit ideology they might have being able to determine what apps are allowed to be made and installed on your phone. It's not fucking okay.

giamma 10/29/2025||
My elderly father unknowingly installed an application on Android after seeing a deceptive ad. An advertising message disguised as an operating system pop-up convinced him that his Android phone's storage was almost full. When he tapped the pop-up, and followed instructions he installed a fake cleaner app from the Play Store. While the app caused no actual harm, it displayed notifications every other day urging him to clean his phone using the same app. When he opened it, the app — which did nothing except display a fake graph simulating almost full storage — pressured him to purchase the PRO version to perform a deeper cleanup.

In reality, the phone had 24 GB of free space out of 64 GB total. I simply uninstalled the fake cleaner and the annoying notifications disappeared.

How such an app could reach the Play Store is beyond me. I can only imagine how many people that app must have deceived and how much money its creators likely made. I'm fairly certain the advertisement targets older people specifically—those most likely to be tricked.

For better or worse, I'm pretty sure that such an app would never land into the Apple App Store.

gumby271 10/29/2025|||
So you're saying Google is doing fuck all to protect customers on their already locked down store, right? This doesn't sound like it will be addressed by Google extending developer registration outside of their store at all if they can't even address obvious scam apps that they're already promoting. And to your point, yes, Apple probably does do a better job of maintaining their app store, that way they can prevent some of the push back on iOS being so locked down. An iPhone sounds like the right device for your father.
avra 10/29/2025|||
from the Play Store

This is not about the Play Store. This is about the whole Android platform. It's about running what you want on your own machine.

BeFlatXIII 10/29/2025|||
> Maven Central registry for Java libraries, by contrast, requires developers to own the DNS domain used as a namespace

What are the requirements around domain renewal?

morshu9001 10/31/2025|||
Litmus test: Can you get NewPipe or other Youtube clients onto an Android phone? This is non-malicious software that users want to run but could reduce YouTube's profits.
beeflet 10/29/2025||
The threat of such attacks is not growing
celsoazevedo 10/29/2025||
A direct link to the UK's Competition and Markets Authority, in case you don't want to go via a blog post:

https://contact-the-cma.service.gov.uk/wizard/classify

It's very simple to submit a complaint.

wasabinator 10/29/2025||
Between this and a growing number of oems not permitting bootloader unlocking (latest being Samsung with OneUI 8) Android's "open" future is pretty bleak.
microtonal 10/29/2025|
IMO the bigger recent issue is that Google stopped pushing AOSP updates timely. As far as I know the QPR1 source is still missing in action after almost two months (!).
bfkwlfkjf 10/29/2025||
Stallman was right.
clcaev 10/29/2025||
> Stallman was right.

Stallman did not find an economic model that works within our business/legal environment.

bfkwlfkjf 10/29/2025|||
Non sequitor. He was right about what companies would do if allowed, and that's the most important thing to keep in mind.
keeda 10/30/2025||
There wasn't much foresight required on his part because companies were already doing things like this way back when. As a trivial example, patents on DRM predate the oft-cited "Right To Read" by a decade or more. Stallman just observed these trends and took an opposing stance without (to GP's point) really addressing the economic incentives and nuances involved.

Maybe his biggest contribution is that his extreme stance and ensuing visibility probably helped shift the Overton window.

nicce 10/29/2025|||
Current big tech is based on Stallman-inspired people using their free time to make software. But they are putting MIT lisence because ”someone” had convinced them that GPL is not really free and not socially acceptable!
hnarn 10/29/2025|||
He usually is, given time.
thinkingemote 10/29/2025||
I wonder, what thing does HN think Stallman is wrong about today (and which in the future we will be proven wrong and Stallman was right).
bfkwlfkjf 10/29/2025|||
I haven't seen him say anything I disagree with. But we would have to discuss specifics for me to have confidence.
334f905d22bc19 10/29/2025|||
Well, the things that got him canceled were and are wrong obviously. But anything (i know of) software related was right
bfkwlfkjf 10/29/2025||
The "things that got him cancelled" were things he said (as opposed to things he did) and those that I've read were correct (though I'm aware I havent read everything he said on the subject).
spacechild1 10/29/2025||
He has written some very questionable things about pedophilia (from which he has since distanced himself): https://stallman.org/archives/2006-may-aug.html#05%20June%20...

To be clear: this does not diminish his contributions in the field of software! His ideas about Free Software have been visionary and are as important as ever. One can be brilliant in one field and a fool in another. This is actually very common among technical people ("engineer's disease"). We cannot expect someone to be right 100% of the time.

Havoc 10/29/2025||
It’s funny how the “Google doesn’t control it it’s open source” crowd has gotten very quiet as of late. See also chromium and manifest 3
talkingtab 10/29/2025||
The issue of android being open is not a developer issue. I do not mean, it does not affect developers, rather that the wrong that must be righted is to the user.

The F-droid article states: "You, the consumer, purchased your Android device believing in Google’s promise that it was an open computing platform and that you could run whatever software you choose on it. "

This is an actionable issue. I believe this is a legally reasonable issue. If you buy a car and then the car manufacturer changes the car so you can only buy gas from them, or parts, that is an offense.

If you accept that users are wronged by googles action, the problem is what can be done about it?

Wrongs committed by companies like Google, Apple, Amazon are difficult to fix because of failures in our legal system. The typical legal action is a class action suit. These typically result in large "settlements" with little real effect. Users get a notice that they are entitled to $40 but only if they jump through seven hoops. Lawyers on both sides make out like bandits. The offenders have little incentive not to be repeat offenders, just not to get caught again. This is an acceptable risk for corporations and so does not act as a deterrent.

There are states Attorney Generals who can file anti-trust actions. The US government (ha ha) could file an anti-trust action. In my opinion neither of these are likely. And even if it happens, it will take years. And years.

A problem with these two legal solutions is that they rely on someone else. The result is that users are victims. We are all used to that by now.

Since we, as android users, are legally entitled to compensation - is there another way to take a legal action.

In most states the limits on small claims actions is between $3000 and $10,000. Well above the cost of an android phone. If there is one class action legal suit against google they can easily spend the money to defend it. And the time. They have the resources to do this.

However, what would happen if 1000 people filed small claims action, asking for a refund for the cost of their phone? Google is declaring war on users. They have their big legal tanks. Small claims are the equivalent of drones in the legal world.

We have the internet. We have AI. Can we generate reasonable and fair legal small claims court filings for each of the 50 states and put them online to help people.

We, the people, have learned helplessness. We need to learn something else or resign ourselves to simply being fodder for predatory actions by corporations.

Artoooooor 10/29/2025||
Does it also mean that developers in "bad" countries will not be able to create installable Android apps?
okanat 10/30/2025|
yes.
wosined 10/29/2025||
> please big corpo overlord do not do what is most profitable for you, pretty pretty please please
Workaccount2 10/29/2025|
This is likely the result of one of the most idiotic and bad rulings to come out of recent tech lawsuits. It's so painfully brain damaged and yet somehow has seemed to largely fly under the radar.

Google was found to have a monopoly on android with the play store (even though you can side load other stores), Apple was found to not have a monopoly with the app store.

OK. But that is not the really bad part, the really bad part came from the appellate court this past July. Google pointed out that the Apple app store was ruled not a monopoly, but somehow Google's more open system was..

The judge, I am not shitting you, said that because Apple doesn't allow competitors on their phones, they cannot be anti-competitive. Google lost the appeal.

So now, clear as day, Google needs to kick out competition to be competitive. Good job legal system.

Bloating 10/29/2025||
While I didn't study the case, I'm speculating that Google's legal team intentionally fumbled the case for this purpose
shwaj 10/29/2025|||
Yes, I recall HN commenters of the time predicting this exact outcome as a result.
smashah 10/29/2025||
That's fucking insane.
More comments...