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Posted by predictand 1 day ago

Show HN: Learn German with Games(www.learngermanwithgames.com)
I just started learning German, and it has been a frustrating experience, to say the least. There are so many seemingly arbitrary rules that make pattern recognition very difficult. Therefore, I have been looking for ways to make memorization a bit easier and fun. So, I came up with a bunch of games to make learning German a bit more engaging. Hope you find it useful as well!
106 points | 96 comments
elicash 1 day ago|
On the topic of learning German with games, the recommendation I've seen before is that many games have language options and depending on the type of game you can learn a lot that way just because you spend SO many hours in it.

So the Sims, I'd guess, is probably a good example for building vocabulary. Edit: example https://dasboudicca.substack.com/p/i-learned-german-and-siml... (This writer has lots of game learning reviews)

HK-NC 18 hours ago||
I had a game called Tom Clancy's Division, and a sequel. Theyre very long, grindy, repetitive games with a lot of text, a lot of spoken dialogue with full subtitles, and plenty of collectible audio things that can be replayed. I learned a lot of Russian amd German playing both these games.
predictand 1 day ago||
That's a really good recommendation! Also, a great excuse to spend more time gaming.
rspoerri 1 day ago||
I don't see how people can learn a language by tests, which are only telling you if you did it right or wrong. I can see how this is used to verify the existing knowledge, but I don't see any usage in learning.
rob74 1 day ago||
Of course, these games won't help improve your fluency in speaking German, but they might help you e.g. remember the correct gender of a noun (and thus its "Artikel"), which is one of the most difficult aspects of German and can only be done through rote memorization.
gf000 20 hours ago|||
I like to think of grammar rules and the accompanying tests that make you remember them as.. rules you can use to generate any number of examples to better the language.

You learn a language by being exposed to it countless times, but most of us doesn't have the opportunity to be immersed 100% into a foreign language. Simple rules let us try out new sentences and do some self-checks to cull out the definitely wrong ones.

This makes your "training set" significantly larger without having to "collect that data". Of course it doesn't replace anything, but it is a useful part of the language learning journey, especially the early part. Later on, nothing can replace simple exposure.

adamredwoods 1 day ago|||
I agree with this, I didn't see it as a game or learning anything. It didn't even give me the correct answers if I got it wrong.

This is more of a "quiz" format, not learning. There is a difference.

IAmBroom 1 day ago||
It's gamified. People like winning games. People dislike taking tests.
vunderba 1 day ago|||
It's a nicely laid out site, but I tried every single activity on the site. Calling them games is... really stretching the definition. They are all interactive quizzes.
rspoerri 1 day ago|||
It's still not learning, it's verification of existing knowledge. It might be more fun than taking tests, nevertheless you cannot learn knowledge by testing knowledge, you can only verify it. Only if the user answers correctly you might consolidate the already existing knowledge.
predictand 1 day ago|||
I think it is fair to call it more practice than learning. I hope to add more games in the future that focus on the learning aspect of things. However, as a beginner, I still find that it helps me learn new words. If I continuously make the same mistake and receive feedback on my answer, it eventually makes me learn what is correct.
rspoerri 18 hours ago||
I thought about that probem as well, and i think an important aspect that you could improve is by showing the correct answer much more visibly.

Right now it's hidden in a corner (iirc), so that i can barely see it. By showing the task and the answer next to each other when doing it wrong, the players might learn something of it.

What i typically recommend my students is to try to transform a learning task in a way that you need to apply a skill, without needing to do the skill itself.

For example playing english text adventure games is a very fun way to learn english. Players need to figure out what to enter using the keyboard and they use classical methods of figuring out the correct content (dictionary, translation) and they still have fun doing so. Even if it's hard work (not so much anymore with deepl etc, but back in the day it was). This can be applied to tons of tasks. - make sure you are not cheated when trading in a game. - keep up your reaction time by playing race games (a very good thing for elderly who want to keep theyr driving skills) - train your dictionary skills in scrabble. - ...

predictand 4 hours ago||
Great feedback, thanks a lot!
watwut 23 hours ago|||
I mean specifically for articles, there are only three options. So, eventually you will figure out the correct one based on the feedback.
tobi_bsf 1 day ago||
Nice, not sure if "Guess the Artikel" makes sense this way. Sometimes it’s not clear whether the word is singular or plural, which affects the article. For example, I got "Ausländer," which can either be "die" for plural or "der" for singular.
rob74 1 day ago|
There are words that can have several Artikel, sometimes depending on regional differences (e.g. Austrians have different preferences than Germans), sometimes because of multiple meanings of a word. In that case, I would expect the game to accept all valid answers. But I got the impression that all words were singular, so "der" would be the only valid option for "Ausländer". I had a similar issue with "Geschwister", where I picked "das" (correct according to https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Geschwister), but the game expected "die" (which IMHO only makes sense for the plural form). Looks like it needs a bit more QA :)
aleph_minus_one 6 hours ago|||
> I had a similar issue with "Geschwister", where I picked "das" (correct according to https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Geschwister)

The actual correct singular form of "[die (since plural)] Geschwister" is "das Geschwist" - a word that is rather obscure even for many native German speakers.

weinzierl 23 hours ago||||
Sometimes it's not regional but depends on the intended meaning. "der Schild" is the thing you wear for protection (shield), "das Schild" tells you the way (sign).
predictand 1 day ago||||
The intention with that game was to pick the artikels for the singular form of the words. I am a complete beginner in German, but I thought the artikel for plurals is always 'die'. However, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of exceptions to that rule. As for Geschwister, yep, that seems wrong. I will fix it!
Lutzb 22 hours ago|||
I had "Jugendliche". "Der" can make sense for a male person. But "die" would also work, for the female person.
leipert 20 hours ago||
Also for „See“. Der See - the lake. Die See - the sea.
1718627440 18 hours ago|||
> I am a complete beginner in German, but I thought the artikel for plurals is always 'die'.

Correct.

> However, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of exceptions to that rule.

Not to this one.

1718627440 18 hours ago|||
> with "Geschwister"

I never heard that used as a singular noun. Maybe it is a Swiss thing. If anything you could say 'das Geschwisterkind'.

rob74 8 hours ago||
Actually, the Duden article I linked above says (under "Bedeutungen"):

1. (männliche wie weibliche) Kinder gleicher Eltern, nur im Plural. Beispiele: "die Geschwister sehen sich alle ähnlich", "ich habe drei Geschwister (wir sind vier Geschwister)"

2. einzelner Geschwisterteil. Gebrauch: Fachsprache; auch schweizerisch Beispiel: "das ältere Geschwister"

So, you are correct, the singular form is only used by the Swiss and as a technical term. So maybe the game shouldn't contain it at all? Or accept both "das" and "die", in case someone thinks it has to be plural?

1718627440 8 hours ago||
Yes, that's where I took the Swiss thing from, I haven't heard that word before. As for the technical term, to me that sounds like one of these artificially degendered forms that are en vogue to day. For anyone who doesn't knows it: 'Geschwister' comes from sister, it is kind of like sisterhood, the other term is 'Gebrüder', which is outdated now. (Yes sisterhood would be 'Schwesternschaft', I can't think of an English grammatical equivalent. Maybe something like 'sistered', the participle to sister describing the set of people you are sistered to.)

The feminist crowd just perceives a common male word as gendered and a common female word to be not.

merelysounds 1 day ago||
Congrats on the launch!

Quick feedback: the website looks very polished and intuitive. I especially liked the test about articles, where I didn’t have to type. I liked that the website works well on mobile too. The content is not what I’d call games though; based on the name I expected something different than test questions and quizzes.

predictand 1 day ago|
Fair enough! I should try to introduce other options that are more game-like.
rwoerz 1 day ago||
Congrats.

Some German natives may argue that the time short forms are wrong as they prefer "dreiviertel" instead of "viertel vor".

rob74 1 day ago||
Let's not get started with that... those same people also say "viertel vier" to mean 3:15 (one quarter of the "fourth hour" has passed), which is really confusing to the uninitiated, so "viertel nach"/"viertel vor" is preferable IMHO...
ce4 22 hours ago|||
It does make sense though (once you know where it comes from):

Before the ubiquity of watches, time was announced using church clocks and bell strikes. There's a big bell for hours (low pitch) and a smaller one for announcing quarters (higher pitch).

Signalling zero is not possible using "zero bell strikes", so 00:00 is signalled by 4 strikes of the quarters bell and 12 strikes of the hour bell.

Thus, the sequences go like:

11:15 1x quarter bell

11:30 2x quarter bell

11:45 3x quarter bell

12:00 4x quarter bell + 1x hour bell

Basically it makes sense then as all the quarters belong to the same hour.

usr1106 9 hours ago|||
I have used those time expressions for over 55 years. Never thought about the explanation.
1718627440 18 hours ago|||
Yes. The other explanation is that time is nothing special, it gets just counted like everything else. You wouldn't say it's a quarter to a full cake either.
rob74 8 hours ago||
If we follow your argument, the number 3.25 would be read "point two five to four" istead of "three point two five". Which is to say, the fact that the quarters are mentioned in connection to the next hour, not the previous one, is indeed unusual.
1718627440 8 hours ago||
Quarters are named by the hour they are in, neither the one previous or after. The hour number four of the day starts at 3:01 (or 3:00:01 with precision in seconds) and is complete by 4:00, it's the same mistake that people make with centuries.

'dreiviertel Vier' is short for 'dreiviertel der vierten Stunde des Tages'.

hutattedonmyarm 5 hours ago||||
it's still correct and should be at least accepted as such, even if not explicitly taught
1718627440 18 hours ago||||
We can agree that there is a big disagreement, but "viertel nach"/"viertel vor" just sounds plain wrong to me.
chopin 8 hours ago||
It's absolutely correct German. Native speaker here.
1718627440 8 hours ago||
Me too. I know. Doesn't change that it sounds plain wrong to me. I guess probably how "dreiviertel X" sounds to you and others. Germany isn't uniform and only a nation state for some short time.

If I try to rationalize it, it is probably that a quarter (to me) is not a distance or difference, but a single thing. So my internal parser expects a Genitiv or another thing after it, not a preposition like 'vor' or 'nach'. 'Zehn Minuten vor/nach X' sounds fine to me, 'eine viertel Stunde vor/nach X' too, but 'viertel vor/nach X' just doesn't.

dvdgsng 4 hours ago|||
Let's not get started with that... those same people also say "viertel nach drei" to mean 3:15 (one quarter after the "third hour" has passed), which is really confusing to the uninitiated, so "viertel vier" is preferable IMHO...

Yeah? Well, you know, thats just like uh your opinion, man.

And, its dismissive and ignorant. IMHO.

brettermeier 1 day ago||
Stay with "viertel vor" please :D Well, it depends on where you are in germany...
nxor 1 day ago||
Somewhat related: if you think German is hard, prepare yourself for the friendly and talkative culture :)
predictand 19 hours ago||
I lived in Canada, Germany, and Switzerland. In my experience, Canadians and Swiss are really nice on average; however, my experience with Germans has generally been on the margins. They have either been very rude or super friendly. I guess that’s what you get when people simply speak their mind.
rcarmo 22 hours ago|||
You're doing the Austrians and Swiss Germans a disservice :)
nxor 21 hours ago||
I didn't name a specific country :)
kleiba 23 hours ago||
What do you mean?
nxor 21 hours ago||
What do I mean? Where to start. Interact with some people from the region and you will find out. As most learners of German know, the hard part of German isn't der die das, it's the exclusive culture. I have C1 in German and have been told "You sound unnatural like a Turk" (I am not a Turk) and "Children sound more natural than you" (of course - they are native speakers). You can get every case, every article, and every syllable correct and they will still find a way to laugh at you. Ask for help in Germany and you will be ignored. Or better yet, "I don't want to help you." Then they wonder why people fail to learn their language. Frankly I wish I could unlearn the language.
1718627440 18 hours ago|||
> You can get every case, every article, and every syllable correct

For articles, natives say sentences with wrong articles in them too. Seldomly because they don't know it (still happens), but because they change what they want to say mid-sentence. Cases are always a fight between the pendants and people who don't care.

Plain incorrect grammar will of course be noticeable, but grammar isn't everything.

nxor 17 hours ago||
That's not what I meant, and I too switch words mid-sentence.

And even if my word choice, register, or what have you is wrong, I don't understand the attitude. Because when they make mistakes in English I don't even comment.

1718627440 17 hours ago||
I think this really depends on the people you surround yourself with. I'm a native German and I get "complaints" that I do not correct enough, because I just try to have a conversation instead of being a language tutor.
chopin 8 hours ago||||
Where was that? Berlin by any chance? That's not representative for Germany.
flobosg 7 hours ago||
I’ve had similar experiences in other, smaller cities. Luckily they are the exception rather than the rule.
HK-NC 18 hours ago||||
I've never had an experience like this, but my only practice in-country has been in Österreich, and majority in Wien.
cindyllm 21 hours ago|||
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culebron21 21 hours ago||
I've tried lots of German text books, and 99% of them are essentially very easy grammar tests, which you quickly learn to fill, without actually learning to speak. In Goethe Institut's courses you also simply fill many tests, but in a group. This may help preparing for an exam, but not to learn anything.

That said, I'd love to see excercises on a really hard matter: verb controlling the noun. E.g. ich vermeide <which prep?> <noun|infinitive>. And not just random verb + random object, but sequences of the same verb, to get it remembered.

ludicrousdispla 20 hours ago|
I find the 'Deutschkurse Passau" workbooks [0] to be the best at focusing on grammar structure and providing useful practice. They can be worked through without an instructor (provided you've had some exposure to the grammar at each level.)

0. https://www.deutschkurse-passau.de/JM/index.php/downloads

My main complaint with most of the other German language coursebooks is the grammar lessons are too scattered, and the main effort in doing the exercises is figuring out what they want you to do.

jjuliano 10 hours ago||
I did something similar back in 2019 but for learning Dutch with games, which I made originally for my child but this kinda helps me remember many A2 words and helps me with the exams. Now I have the Dutch citizenship.

Not as extensive as the site but with the images, interactions, it helps with remembering the vocabularies. https://play.google.com/store/apps/developer?id=Joel+Bryan+J...

predictand 4 hours ago|
Very cool! I really need to work on my mobile development skills.
1718627440 18 hours ago||
The 'German Time Game' is confusing (at least to a native). The answers you want to hear are words you would say about a digital clock, it's highly uncommon to use this to tell the time from an analog clock. Maybe you should consider showing a digital clock for this game. What you would use for an analog clock is what you call 'Time Short Form'.
predictand 18 hours ago|
We have been told that it might be normal to tell the time like that from an analog clock in places where precision matters (like train stations or airports). As a beginner, this is how we started to learn it as well in the course I am taking. I think it makes your brain work harder by making it do more processing (you need to interpret the clock + the numbers, whereas a digital clock simply gives the number to you, so less mental processing is needed). I see where you are coming from, but it helps me with my learning and coursework.
1718627440 18 hours ago||
> where precision matters (like train stations or airports).

That is true. That is called e.g. 'Bahnhofszeit' and follows different rules than normal time telling. You should include that in the game description, otherwise learners may think that is how you tell the time to each other in everyday life.

I think it is less about precision as e.g. 'zwei vor dreiviertel Elf' is as precise as 'zehn Uhr dreiundvierzig', but more about the way of measuring times. E.g. you do round normal time, but truncate 'train station time'.

1718627440 19 hours ago|
At least https://www.learngermanwithgames.com/games/german-verbs-to-e... : has a bug. It shows correct, as soon as your substring matches. Thus, you can enter the first letter of the word and it will show it as correct.
predictand 18 hours ago|
That's a good catch! Thanks for reporting.
1718627440 18 hours ago||
I'm curious, how do you write such a bug? Accidental early return in the comparison function or what?
predictand 18 hours ago||
So, in that particular game, I wanted to match a substring, since my data source includes some responses written as "let/allow" or "drive (vehicle)", which isn't realistic to expect the user to type. So, I just figured I would quickly work around that by allowing a substring match. However, I didn't really think about the edge cases all that much.
1718627440 18 hours ago||
Yeah, I guess you should just split your source data into words.
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