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Posted by wslh 1 day ago

Tether is now the 17th largest holder of US debt(twitter.com)
98 points | 124 comments
pjc50 1 day ago|
Hmm. Who do they hold it through? USDC are using Blackrock as an intermediary, but Tether have always been very opaque about their actual structure. And who are all these people who have swapped cash for a non-cash token which does NOT bear interest, unlike the bonds?
jameskilton 1 day ago||
As Matt Levine has said multiple times in "Money Stuff", Tether has found the perfect business plan. They hold billions of actual USD, and get to keep all of the interest for themselves.
glitchc 1 day ago||
Cash doesn't earn interest. T-bills and money market funds earn minimal interest compared to equities. Given the size of their holdings, Tether is paying a huge opportunity cost for their position. I don't consider that good business.
eightysixfour 1 day ago|||
They have guaranteed returns on $185b of other people's money, and they only owe the other people the principal. That's like... the best business in the world? If it was all in 6m 2.8% treasuries they'd still be making $5.2b year for holding people's cash and running a token on the blockchain.

How greedy do you have to be to look at that and say "yeah, well they could be getting bigger returns with an actively managed portfolio?"

I'm pretty sure Tether was holding less cash than they said multiple times, and at multiple points it was just a house of cards where they were inflating the price of BTC on their own, but I'm also guessing by now they've had made enough to cover.

simmerup 23 hours ago|||
The problem is liquidity. If in some fantasy situation there was a run on tether, tether would go to 0 because their investments can't be converted into USD without tanking the price of those investments

Luckily for the crypto people, Tether makes it near impossible to turn their fantasy money into real money

toomuchtodo 22 hours ago|||
Tether could gate redemptions at a pace that would preserve value of the underlying sovereign debt requiring liquidation, due to no immediate redemption regulatory requirements. Take a number and wait your turn while the treasuries are sold into the market, essentially.
ac29 19 hours ago|||
The US treasury market is one of the most liquid markets in the world.
outside1234 23 hours ago||||
Said another way, returns ALWAYS have to be risk adjusted. Sure they could _probably_ make more in Equities, but their approach is returns with zero risk, which is impossible to beat.
lotsofpulp 23 hours ago||
Depends if the purchasing power of the currency holds up. Real returns are what matter, and earning 3% “risk free” is not so “risk free” if the price of things you want to buy increase by more than 3%, etc.
nocoiner 23 hours ago|||
Skimming 3% on OPM is still a pretty, pretty good business.
eightysixfour 20 hours ago|||
Well, fortunately for them we are talking about amounts of money where inflation is irrelevant.
glitchc 23 hours ago|||
Uh, internet dude, you must be new to finance. Banks have been doing this for centuries. Best business in the world? Sure. But it's even better when you invest in things that earn more, right? Like equities. That's what banks do. It's about the rate of return. Is it more risky? Sure. That's why they hold a diverse basket of goods, to diffuse the risk. But it's worth the risk when weighed against the opportunity cost of not investing and losing that rate of return.

> How greedy do you have to be to look at that and say "yeah, well they could be getting bigger returns with an actively managed portfolio?"

This is banking and finance. Greed only stops when you run into legislative limits, and sometimes, not even there.

eightysixfour 20 hours ago|||
Yeah, and we used to separate the investing activities of banks from the depository activities, to reduce overall risk to the financial system. You don't want people investing in higher risk securities with money that is supposed to be available on demand.
dmix 23 hours ago|||
> It's about the rate of return. Is it more risky? Sure.

Isnt the whole idea this is a stable coin?

pshan 23 hours ago||||
The business is good because of the high amount of leverage they have in those T-bills and money markets since those deposits are liabilities on the balance sheet. The actual return they make on the money the owners put into the business is probably great.

Based on the Q2 2025 attestation [1] it looks like they have about 162B in assets and 157B in liabilities which leaves ~5B in shareholder equity. Even if they hold most of those assets in treasuries, they probably have an egregiously high return on shareholder equity.

(Fun fact: I think this puts their leverage ratio as high as banks during the 2008 GFC. But treasuries should theoretically be safer than subprime mortgage loans).

Equities would give a higher return on average, they don't really work when the liabilities can get called at any time. Tether has to be able to produce money for people exchanging their tether.

If you were in their position and I gave you 150 billion dollars on the condition that I can withdraw that 150 billion dollars at any time. You'd probably also park it in a short-term money market fund. If you put it in equities and it dropped 1%, you'd be on the hook for 1.5 billion.

[1] https://tether.io/news/tether-issues-20b-in-usdt-ytd-becomes...

Karrot_Kream 7 hours ago|||
> But treasuries should theoretically be safer than subprime mortgage loans

A huge understatement, don't you think? ;)

throwaway-0001 23 hours ago|||
Just that the condition is that you give them 150b and if you withdraw and they Dont have you lost 150b and nothing will happen. Good luck recovering your cash from El Salvador or bvi.
crote 1 day ago||||
People are giving them money for free. They pay absolutely zero interest or dividend to "investors". For the crypto people, Tether's job is to accept money and do nothing with it.

US debt is about as stable as the dollar itself, so to their crypto customers buying bonds is a no-op. Any yield is pure profit for Tether itself.

tim333 22 hours ago||||
They can't ethically put the money into equities because they are obliged to redeem the tether tokens for USD on demand. It's the same thing that your bank manage can't take the cash in your account, bet it on nvda and take the profits if it goes up, unless they want to end up like SBF.

They may have somewhat sketchily put money into bitcoin at times though.

yborg 1 day ago||||
I guess banking isn't a good business then.
deadbabe 23 hours ago||||
They can invest all the interest they make into higher risk higher reward investments, like the S&P500.
beeflet 1 day ago||||
that may be true but minimal interest is greater than no interest.
samtheprogram 1 day ago|||
They aren't just holding cash and/or doing nothing with it. Come on.
btilly 23 hours ago||
If you believe their attestations, they pretty much are. See, for example, https://assets.ctfassets.net/vyse88cgwfbl/2SGAAXnsb1wKByIzkh.... Most of the money is in Treasuries, or markets like overnight repos that behave much like Treasuries. Most of the rest is in things like corporate bonds, which again generally move like cash. Only their claimed excess equity is in riskier investments, like Bitcoin.

If you doubt their attestation, it is more reasonable to doubt their claimed total assets before worrying about the breakdown of their investments.

airza 1 day ago|||
People give tether their USD so they can bypass currency controls when buying and selling crypto online. There are a lot of them to put it mildly.
hyghjiyhu 1 day ago||
Can people holding tether for a day or two while entering of exiting crypto really explain these large amounts?
rattlesnakedave 1 day ago|||
There are plenty of people in jurisdictions where it is difficult to get dollars that use them for other things. Normal transactions, gambling, saving in USD. Not uncommon.
delabay 20 hours ago||||
I don't think it has dawned on the HN crowd how insatiable the demand for dollars across the world is. This stuff is being used in all corners of the world, and accelerating.
gomox 23 hours ago||||
Why for a day or two?
hyghjiyhu 23 hours ago||
I thought he meant basically buy tether with dollar transfer exchange for btc. That shouldn't take long.
sunshine-o 23 hours ago||||
I think the the market for those stablecoins is now broader than criminal and traders.

There is a huge demand for dollars by individuals outside of the US. Countries where people do not really trust their banks and currencies.

Even in the Euro zone, most saving accounts will give you about 1% after taxes. So why not going with USDT, USDC or EURC and get about 5% on a relatively safe lending platform.

hyghjiyhu 21 hours ago||
You get 5%? If so, that is surely a big piece of the puzzle. Where do those % come from? Bonds don't yield that right?
sunshine-o 19 hours ago||
There are many ways, the most common is to lend your stablecoins against collateral crypto. So if you put 1000 USD in the lending pool you have let's say the guarantee 2500 USD worth of bitcoin are serving as collateral. That will get you about 5% on a serious protocol.

You can also provide liquidity on a stable stablecoin/stablecoin pair on a reputable decentralized exchange and get some of the fees.

There are surely many other "safe" ways.

If you live in Switzerland you're probably not gonna bother but it is more transparent and safer than than what a lot of people have access to around the world.

I know the DAI stablecoin was already very popular as a saving account in Argentina around 2018-2019.

yieldcrv 22 hours ago||||
people don't exit

its just like your brokerage account, imagine if Schwab issued a stablecoin for every deposit someone made and only delete some of that stablecoin when they redeem

you'll find that people deposit and trade, they keep their balances there their entire life and beyond. when they trade, they are selling the stablecoin to someone else, someone else could redeem but they aren't either. stablecoins are liquid and useful, they have passive income capabilities while holding your principle value

so for Schwab's reporting, the balances always increase as people deposit more whenever they get their paycheck

this is what you're seeing with Tether, and all other leading stablecoins, as they grow at the same pace as they capture the same market

when actual traditional finance brokerage firms start issuing stablecoins, you'll see the same thing, the stablecoin just offers transparent real time behavior into their customer deposits

the only time stablecoin balances go down, and subsequently treasuries are offloaded behind the scenes, is when someone redeems a stablecoin for fiat currency. this isn't necessary, people don't want fiat or don't need to get fiat by redeeming it

yieldcrv 1 day ago|||
yes
voidmain0001 1 day ago|||
NPR Planet Money has a podcast from last week speaking about hedge funds buying US treasuries. They touch on the chaos that can come from hedge funds buying treasuries and suggest that hedge funds might be lumped into the too big to fail group.

https://www.npr.org/2025/10/10/nx-s1-5565181/trilemma-treasu...

alecco 6 hours ago|||
It's incredible how this comment got a bunch of replies not understanding the question.

Explanation: Tether is not holding a stack of paper bonds in a safe. They must use some broker (or similar) to operate and hold the treasuries for them. And they are hiding how this is working. So the parent's question is who do they (Tether) hold it (treasuries) through (as in what broker/investment bank/whatever).

My answer is nobody outside Tether knows. And they are one of the dodgiest companies out there. We are totally audited, bro, trust me. They could be doing leveraged investments. Or they could just be Madoff 2.0. Nobody really knows. And the US government seems to be looking the other way because they are desperate for any buyers of treasuries.

pjc50 5 hours ago||
Exactly. I got this pointed out by one of the old school finance guys I've followed for years on Twitter/bsky; if you're a market participant of that size, other participants should expect to know who you are. If only because someone buying a billion dollars of bonds a week is useful to know if you want to unload some bonds.

USDC by contrast are open in their holdings, through Blackrock.

Large invisible "dark matter" financial holdings are the sort of thing that blow up badly during a financial crisis.

actionfromafar 23 hours ago|||
Do they hold it? How would we know?
m00dy 1 day ago|||
Cantor Fitzgerald
cypherpunks01 23 hours ago||
Correct, this is the answer. Wasn't really known until this year.

https://fortune.com/crypto/2024/11/25/commerce-nominee-howar...

tim333 22 hours ago||
I hold some Tether. It's fairly normal if you speculate on crypto.
nikhizzle 1 day ago||
Armchair economist here - one implication of this is that a crypto liquidation will cause global interest rates to spike at a time when they will need to be lower to calm the markets.

Selling massive amounts of debt with no additional demand means the required return must be higher.

delabay 1 day ago||
Stablecoins are now a regulated industry with laws in place to address this very concern. Tether is currently not compliant, but as the largest player in the space, has a great incentive to maintain its dominance.
axus 1 day ago|||
Regulated industry.. like banking, stocks, and mortgage origination!
duxup 22 hours ago|||
What would the regulation ... enforce?

Some sort of behavior by Tether and others?

delabay 20 hours ago||
Regulators also have enforcement functions.

Are you asking how laws work?

duxup 20 hours ago||
I’m just curious what is being enforced to prevent what exactly.

I think I’m missing what scenario people are thinking of in general.

tim333 22 hours ago|||
I'm not sure I see that, depending what you mean by crypto liquidation. If you mean the prices of dogecoin etc. falling then that mostly just effects the number of Tethers changing hands between one speculator and another and wouldn't really affect the bond market.

If you mean Tether holders redeeming them for US dollars, that would involve selling treasuries but I doubt it would drive the price down that much. That's a very liquid market.

nikhizzle 18 hours ago||
I mean tether redemptions. Hedge funds liquidating treasuries last year significantly distorted yields for a short while.
SideburnsOfDoom 1 day ago|||
The USA is going to have a fantastic fiscal reputation if/when that has happened.
wslh 1 day ago|||
Good point but it seems like Tether is very healthy, it has the double of daily volume than Bitcoin now and doesn't really depend on crypto rails [1].

[1] Stable Coins ⊄ Blockchains: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/stable-coins-blockchains-seba...

yieldcrv 21 hours ago|||
that's very armchair indeed

a crypto liquidation results in more people going to Tether. "tethered" and "tethering" has been a verb in the crypto space for like 10 years

when market demand of tether is too great the value goes about $1.00 and the organization relies on arbitragers to deposit more to cause the minting of Tethers at $1.00 and selling it into the open market if the price is above $1.00 pushing the market rate back down to $1.00

Tethers in existence still continue to grow in that scenario

Its nearly 1:1 backing, most of the time, even a mass redemption event of Tethers will be orderly and fine. those crisis of confidence have alreay occurred, those stress tests have already happened, far faaaar beyond what any bank would survive

all fiat collateralized stablecoins function the same way and there are many case studies, actual events that happened, that show it occurring orderly, uneventfully.

sunshine-o 19 hours ago||
> when market demand of tether is too great the value goes about $1.00 and the organization relies on arbitragers to deposit more to cause the minting of Tethers at $1.00 and selling it into the open market if the price is above $1.00 pushing the market rate back down to $1.00

I'm not sure of this. USDT can only be minted by tether [0] (line 406), hopefully when they acquire more treasuries.

I am not exactly sure where the price of USDT come from and I am pretty sure there is not only one. But I would guess it is an aggregate of the prices on exchanges.

The chainlink oracle [1] is probably the most authoritative one.

- [0] https://etherscan.io/token/0xdac17f958d2ee523a2206206994597c...

- [1] https://data.chain.link/feeds/ethereum/mainnet/usdt-usd

yieldcrv 18 hours ago||
Nobody is “setting the price”, people trade. supply and demand. on many venues and contracts. the oracles just read from those (and sometimes the venues and contracts read from the oracles)

when tethers and trading at $1.04 or anything higher than $1.00

arbitrageurs wire money to their account at the Tether organization (bitfinex, otc services) to instruct the organization to mint Tether

the organization does everything necessary: takes the deposited money and buys US treasuries, mints the equivalent amount of Tethers and gives those tethers to the customer

The customer deposited $1 and received 1 tether. Some exchange venues have people rushing to buy 1 Tether for $1.04

Customer sells their tether to them and has some other form of crypto that they can try to get back into dollars and do it all over again, until flooding the market with Tether supply back to $1.00

this happens all day every day for a decade, more pronounced during panic selling periods

heisgone 1 day ago||
deleted
onlyrealcuzzo 1 day ago||
The US Treasury market is BY FAR the deepest most liquid market in the world.
kylebenzle 1 day ago||
[dead]
kingstnap 1 day ago||
Have people basically loaned these guys a free $135B to let them buy bonds with?
chasebank 1 day ago||
Yes. IIRC they made over $10B in profit last year. Easily the most successful crypto company ever.
btilly 23 hours ago|||
Given how conveniently Tethers have appeared in the past to prop up key parts of the crypto ecosystem, many are skeptical that they have actually received as much money as they claim.
FireBeyond 23 hours ago||
Their math has been hilariously unbelievable at times (except to the crypto bros)... at one point they claimed they were banking deposits of about $3B a week.

To put that in perspective, that's what Saudi Aramco or Samsung might get as revenues.

But hey, don't just trust them, trust their bank and it's 33 year old deputy CEO who, when people pointed out that that number didn't match up with international banking numbers, said that was because those people didn't understand the banking licenses being used in The Bahamas, and that there were two, though he couldn't remember their names, or which one they had, or whether they maybe had both.

And when that looked hilariously bad, they removed his info from the bank's website.

And when that looked bad, they added it back.

And when that looked bad, they removed the bank's whole website, and replaced it with a broken WP template with no working links.

Hey, look, several years after that, go to Deltec's website. "Ultra sophisticated private banking" running on a different WordPress site. "Client login"? "This site can’t be reached Check if there is a typo in ebanking.deltecbank.com. DNS_PROBE_FINISHED_NXDOMAIN". Just as has been the case for years.

"Sounds legit to me" say the bros.

throwaway-0001 1 day ago||
If they bought bonds would be amazing. 99% chances there is not much left. We’ve been saying this for years so not sure when will crash. But definitively it’s a scam
delabay 1 day ago|||
Totally, utterly, completely false. An honest discussion of this matter has no space for tether truthers stuck in the year 2015.
disgruntledphd2 1 day ago||
Can you provide their audits then please?

Otherwise I'm not sure how you can be so certain.

sunshine-o 23 hours ago|||
I am not sure about Tether but I see Paxos provides regular reports by KPMG https://www.paxos.com/usdp-transparency#usdp-attestations
delabay 23 hours ago|||
If tether wants to maintain their dominant position (they do) then they will work to be compliant with the LAW, on a timeline deemed appropriate by the law makers.

Take your conspiratorial trutherism elsewhere.

actionfromafar 23 hours ago|||
The LAW is spelled "keep in good standing with the President". He might feel his little coin grifts are left behind.

On a timeline deemed appropriate by the law makers is making a lot of heavy lifting here. The (GOP) lawmakers won't lift a finger to do anything unless the Leader says so.

disgruntledphd2 22 hours ago||||
You keep calling out people who ask reasonable questions about Tether/crypto truthers. If I were you I'd probably rethink that strategy as it doesn't seem to be working out well.

Like, even Enron and Wirecard passed audits, so it's pretty weird that Tether can't.

SpicyLemonZest 23 hours ago|||
You're right that Tether claims they could not previously get an audit and need the government to smooth the way (https://www.reuters.com/technology/tether-is-talks-with-big-...), but why would that be the case? Companies get audited all the time. Tether seems to have their own "conspiratorial trutherism" in mind, where the Biden administration secretly told all the major audit firms that they mustn't allow Tether to be audited because that might make crypto look good. And even that doesn't explain why they couldn't get an audit from 2017 to 2020.

To me the obvious explanation is that they would not pass an honest audit, and hope having the CEO of their primary brokerage in the Cabinet will help them cheat.

tim333 22 hours ago||
Tether's main problem is money laundering regulations, probably not so much not having the money.
toomuchtodo 1 day ago||
https://archive.today/eEJMW
karel-3d 1 day ago||
Too big to fail...?
IT4MD 1 day ago|
[dead]
tock 23 hours ago||
Stablecoins are the greatest business model ever. You hold money as treasuries and earn risk free interest. There is literally no tech spend either. All profit no expenses.
pashabitz 23 hours ago||
17th if comparing to sovereign states. There is way more debt held by private domestic investors as well as government agencies.
somanyphotons 23 hours ago||
What are the failure modes here? Is the tether company itself a vulnerability?
exasperaited 23 hours ago||
If I was on the board of Tether or Capital Union I'd be a little scared by this.

Trump squeezed Intel for 10%, bullied Tiktok into a sale, and is ordering extrajudicial killings not that far away from the Bahamas.

What is to stop him saying: Tether is sketchily governed (seems true), is secretive and unaudited (seems true?), and holds far too much debt for the USA to be secure (could well be true) — "this is against our national security interests"?

$135bn that Congress can't touch must be really tempting. What stops him just taking it?

Especially since his sense of "national security interests" includes Canada making fun of the USA with clips of Reagan.

(I'm not sure that it would even be the wrong thing to do in a more structured, legal way at least)

d--b 22 hours ago|
reminding everyone that using Tether is being exposed to US credit risk without remuneration. This should be illegal as they are screwing people over who don’t know shit about how these things work.

mortgages arr regulated, this should be as well.

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