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Posted by samfriedman 2 days ago

ICE and CBP agents are scanning faces on the street to verify citizenship(www.404media.co)
384 points | 342 comments
samfriedman 2 days ago|
https://archive.is/UReW9
fabian2k 2 days ago||
The absolutely outrageous thing is that apparently they are instructed to ignore all other evidence of citizenship if that app says someone is not a citizen. So even if you have your birth certificate ready, doesn't matter.

This is completely lawless.

From the article:

> He also said “ICE officials have told us that an apparent biometric match by Mobile Fortify is a ‘definitive’ determination of a person’s status and that an ICE officer may ignore evidence of American citizenship—including a birth certificate—if the app says the person is an alien.

willis936 2 days ago||
I don't think it's a coincidence that identity masking of deputies starts happening the moment that deputies start doing illegal things. They are jumping to the very end of "what can we do if we remove every means of accountability, present or future?"
duxup 2 days ago|||
I think ICE is in fact setup / groomed to be ... lawless. Just thugs for the federal government.
dragonwriter 2 days ago||
Its not just ICE, its clear Trump intent for law enforcement (and not just federal) from even very early on in his first term, where a highlighted priority was terminating then-active federal enforcement actions against state law enforcement agencies for violations of civil rights. Lawless “law enforcement” has been one of the most consistent overt priorities Trump has had.
acdha 2 days ago|||
Yes, but ICE has been fast and loose with the law for a long time so they’re starting without something like the military’s culture about lawful orders, appropriate use of force, etc. As in so many areas, past presidents ignoring the problem left it ready for scaled up abuse.
dragonwriter 1 day ago||
ICE leadership below the top level is currently being purged, and apparently replaced with officials transferred from Border Patrol, because ICE’s approach and culture is more targeted and criminality based, and many of the biggest abuses so far in the immigration crackdown blamed on “ICE” have actually been carried out by Border Patrol (its not a coincidence that much of the current controversy in Chicago centers around thhe regional Border Patrol commander.)

While ICE is being massively scaled up with the intent that you describe, its not unique in kind or even the worst by degree of the agencies involved in terms of either historic or current lawlessness. It's just the one with the public mission most in line with the propaganda cover chosen for Trump's totalitarian efforts.

duxup 2 days ago|||
I think ICE's expansion + their massive legal discretion that goes beyond typical law enforcement is just he perfect place to put thugs. ICE by design is just the spot to have those folks, sadly.
conception 2 days ago||
Also they operate in the constitution free zone of 100 miles from a border.
jazzyjackson 2 days ago|||
Biometrics are more protected in IL than an other states as well. Facebook settled a big lawsuit just for automatically tagging people (actually the suit was about storing the biometric face data at all without consent)
qingcharles 2 days ago|||
They are. BIPA is top rate. I looked at the statute, which excludes Illinois state and local government entities, but does not talk of federal bodies. I don't know enough about the supremacy of federal statutes to know how that works, and most discussions note that the statute excludes "the government" which is not totally accurate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biometric_Information_Privacy_...

evanjrowley 2 days ago|||
Legal action against this is going to be a tough, possibly unfeasable battle.

Whatever the laws are, they probably contain exceptions for the use of biometrics for law enforcement purposes.

In terms of court precedent, biometrics are not protected by the 4th amendment, because your face is not considered a secret that the government could compel you to reveal.

UniverseHacker 2 days ago|||
The supreme court has effectively removed all of the possible mechanisms to sue ICE or DHS and hold them accountable, with the sole exception of having the DOJ prosecute them on your behalf, which is of course never going to happen. The only remaining possibility to hold them accountable for crimes appears to be within the states judicial systems- but most are currently setup to not allow this, deferring to the federal mechanisms which only very recently stopped existing.

This Vox article and the podcast with the same name does a good job of explaining how it is now effectively impossible to hold ICE accountable to the law: https://www.vox.com/politics/464962/supreme-court-ice-no-law

sowbug 2 days ago||||
Question for a future (2026?) dystopia: if our faces aren't secret or private for 4A/5A purposes, can we start making them secret/private by walking around in public with a balaclava?

New norms go both ways.

dragonwriter 2 days ago|||
The people who like mass surveillance also like laws against public face covering.
t0bia_s 2 days ago||||
What about using technology to scan and identify faces of those who oppress?
sowbug 1 day ago||
Related and recent: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45734369

(Not scanning faces, but continuously monitoring yourself to prove innocence. Depressing.)

_DeadFred_ 2 days ago||||
We now know why people had such weird makeup/facial modification attachments in dystopian sci-fi.

Luckily we have libertarians, 1990s Republicans, and Hannity and Infowars fans that will fight vehemently to stop this sort of face scanning. It is all of theirs' nightmare scenarios way past all their red lines up there with Walmarts turned into relocation camps.

But until they sort it out is it possible to make temporary tattoos (or just stickers) with patterns that make facial scanning unfeasible?

RansomStark 2 days ago|||
It used to be cv dazzle [0] is 15 years young. But its questionable if it works anymore. Theres also a bunch of of digital camo, most seem to target IR cameras [1] here's a homebrew version.

[0] https://adam.harvey.studio/cvdazzle

[1] https://www.macpierce.com/the-camera-shy-hoodie

Hizonner 2 days ago||
> It used to be cv dazzle [0] is 15 years young. But its questionable if it works anymore.

I fed all the CV Dazzle demo pictures into some free Amazon facial recognition demo a few years ago. It was a pretty shitty demo, but the makeup didn't even slow it down. It had no trouble at all finding the faces, assigning ages or genders, or locating facial features. And once you've located the features, you're going to have no trouble identifying the person if they're in the database.

RansomStark 2 days ago||
That makes sense, the CV dazzle styles for designed for a specific algorithm that went out of use around a decade ago.

There have been some updated styles for CNN based models, but never tried them, the originals did work back in the day

RansomStark 2 days ago||||
Totally forgot this gem [0].

Done hide. Overwhelm.

[0] https://adam.harvey.studio/hyperface/

tracker1 2 days ago||||
Agreed there are definitely a lot of Libertarians and Republicans that definitely object to random use of facial recognition as presented.

As I mentioned in another comment, I'd like to see any clarifying statements from ICE/DoJ on this before jumping to conclusions as framing often cuts off portions of video or otherwise warps framing of events. Not to mention, I don't recall seeing any mention of a request for comment in the article.

cool_man_bob 2 days ago|||
Libertarians and 90s republican are about as politically impotent as the democrats these days.

The Hannity and Infowars fans will be written off as crazy when no longer useful.

ozmodiar 2 days ago||
I'm assuming the joke is that what remains of them seem to be entirely on board with this.
Yeul 2 days ago|||
The Netherlands has a law that makes it illegal to cover your face. Officially this is to help the police but its also a great tool against religion. Constitution>god
cudgy 1 day ago||
God wants our faces covered?
collingreen 1 day ago||
Some religions say their God wants some people covered, like women.
tracker1 2 days ago|||
Beyond this, state law may not supersede federal authority. This will likely go to the Supreme Court before it's actually decided, short of congressional action (unlikely).

I'm not sure if these requests are only made if other ID isn't available or a refusal to present id happens. That said, I'm not sure how this qualifies as reasonable suspicion in terms of stopping someone without evidence of some other crime in progress or as part of a warranted raid activity. Though stops on highways within 100 miles of a border is very much permitted for identification, unsure if this would fall under those provisions.

While I absolutely support deportations, this appears at first glance to be over the top... but I'd like to see any clarifying statements from ICE, which I don't recall seeing in the article.

vkou 2 days ago||
Why would you believe any clarifying statements they'd give?

They'd just tell you they are only going after pedo-terrorists.

What are we going to do? Call them liars? They don't care.

tracker1 1 day ago||
Because it's pay off journalistic integrity to at least try to get and reflect a statement from all parties involved.

Without it I have to look at any reporting as unduly biased and likely from an activist lens.

I have a healthy distrust of both the govt and journalists.

nitwit005 2 days ago|||
I'm somewhat morbidly curious how many citizens we're going to deport to random countries. It happened fairly often before this administration.
IAmGraydon 1 day ago||
Can you give me some specific examples of deported citizens?
nitwit005 1 day ago||
You can check the wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_Americans_from_...
downrightmike 2 days ago|||
People can look identical, that's the reason we started using finger prints. Faces are not unique.
burkaman 2 days ago|||
Also, this app uses photos from a combination of government databases, but there are millions of citizens without photo ID who won't show up in any of them.
toomuchtodo 2 days ago||
Social media datasets are likely in use.

https://www.biometricupdate.com/202509/ice-awards-clearview-...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clearview_AI

krapp 2 days ago||||
There is no scientific proof that fingerprints are unique, either. Like a lot of forensic science, it's just accepted wisdom.
more_corn 2 days ago||
I think the scientific consensus is that they are NOT unique. I seem to recall there’s something like a one in five million chance of collision. (Recalling from memory so please verify, I recall thinking that in a large city there’s likely to be another person who’s fingerprints could be mistaken for yours)
tracker1 2 days ago||
IIRC, someone was accused and arrested for murder who lived across the country and couldn't have possibly committed the crime based on fingerprint match.
yubblegum 1 day ago||||
A book to read on the history of surveillance technology, starting with "pass papers" for slaves to finger prints:

The Soft Cage - Surveillance in America: From Slavery to the War on Terror, Christian Parenti, 2003

https://archive.org/details/softcagesurveill0000pare

qingcharles 2 days ago|||
My friend (who has an identical twin) was joking about scanning himself into Cameo mode on Sora and making some goofy videos and saying they were his brother.
deepfriedchokes 2 days ago|||
Lots of lawsuits forthcoming. Who’s going to pay for them? We are.
troyvit 2 days ago|||
Cops be cops: https://denverite.com/2025/10/27/bow-mar-flock-cameras-accus...

In that case it's Bow Mar, a small town in Colorado, relying on flock cameras to issue tickets for petty theft.

We as a society just aren't capable of using these toys right.

potato3732842 2 days ago||
I'd say it's nice to see that particular demographic at the business end of this 1984 crap since they're usually the ones pushing it but I don't think the rest of them are smart enough to have the "that could be me" reaction.
wahnfrieden 1 day ago||
A YC investment btw
xtracto 2 days ago|||
At this point, the US is a failed democracy and a facist state. I would definitely advice people from other countries to leave ASAP.

The facist American government is even sending their dissident citizens to detention camps in Africa .

Good luck to Americans that cannot go somewhere else.

lawn 2 days ago|||
> the person is an alien

The dehumanizing language is absolutely disgusting and it's use is an important milestone towards genocide.

robocat 2 days ago|||
It is often the case that a "good" word is used, and then the derogatory secondary meanings grow.

Years ago special needs was a fairly safe term, yet now "speshul" definitely has different tone. I'm sure you know if many other examples (I can think of heaps). I predict that "delayed" will become derogatory.

I think that banning words is literally dumb. I am bit older and went through the Politically Correct putsh. Disclaimer: I'm a lefty.

clawr 2 days ago||||
Alien has been the legal term since the beginning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts
lawn 2 days ago||
Resurrecting obscure rasistic terminology from 200 years ago isn't much of an excuse.
jdkee 1 day ago||
It is the currently used language of the U.S. government.
throw-the-towel 2 days ago|||
This particular word has been in official use for ages. I agree that it's disgusting.
gorbachev 2 days ago|||
> This is completely lawless.

They don't give a **.

https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/the-rule-of-law-i...

jaco6 2 days ago||
Birth certificates and driver's licenses can be and are routinely faked by everyone from high school students to foreign agents. Faces cannot be faked.
hamdingers 2 days ago|||
You're making the unreasonable assumption of good faith on the part of the app developers.

It could be designed to accurately distinguish citizens from noncitizens, or it could be connected to a database of online agitators, or picking out facial features of targeted minorities without regard to their personal identity, or some combination of all of these and worse. You don't know.

acdha 2 days ago|||
Faces can’t be easily be “faked” in person but they can definitely be misrecognized or recognized correctly against mistagged data. Anything like this needs to be designed with the assumption that errors will be frequent enough that the finding has to be validated before doing something serious.
puppycodes 2 days ago||
Seems like this would be to collect faces of what they consider "dissedents" rather than verify citizenship which can be done much more accurately through a mobile fingerprint reader.

Then again, who needs accuracy when you dissapear people without a warrant.

ASalazarMX 2 days ago||
Fingerprint is individual surveillance, face scanning is mass surveillance. I'd expect governments to always favour the latter if given the choice.
alwa 2 days ago||
When are citizens’ fingerprints normally put on file, in the US? Or, for that matter, noncitizens who entered irregularly?
trillic 2 days ago|||
Joining a program like NEXUS or Global Entry is the only time I’ve had my fingerprints taken by the govt. When I worked for a couple highly-regulated financial institutions I was fingerprinted as part of a background check but that was done by a private party who (allegedly) was just checking for matches with known criminals.
IG_Semmelweiss 2 days ago||||
Anyone going thru the process of getting licensed as a stockbroker is fingerprinted (Series 63, 7 test)

Its possible that insurance broker license is the same. Same for pharmacist.

I think a lot of US trades have fingerprinting as requisite, particularly if they require a background check.

ElevenLathe 1 day ago||
Truck drivers and substitute schoolteachers too (I was a sub teacher at one point and the closest place to go to get fingerprinted was a truck driving school.)
buttercraft 2 days ago||||
AFAIK only if you are booked into jail, and also for some licenses. For example, a beer and wine license for a restaurant requires fingerprints, at least in my state, not sure how it varies. Probably some types of firearm licenses as well. Not typical driver's licenses though.
red-iron-pine 19 hours ago||||
joined the military. they did fingerprints and IIRC they were starting to log DNA.

if you have access to profoundly expensive weaponry and training to use it, it makes sense. also if you're shipping bodies back in pieces -- fingerprints, dental records, and DNA may be the only way to figure out what happened to you.

JohnMakin 2 days ago|||
When you get a driver's license, for one.
wildrhythms 1 day ago|||
I've lived in 6 different states and never once got fingerprinted when obtaining a driver's license.
tracker1 2 days ago|||
I don't recall getting fingerprinted when I got my Driver's license or renewed, or even when I had to switch to a national id version for travel.

I did get fingerprint registration while considering adoption with my ex-wife as part of the background check.

voxic11 2 days ago||
Texas takes the fingerprints of everyone who is issued a drivers license. In other states its usually only for commercial licenses.
Animats 2 days ago||
In half an hour, Gregory Bovino, who heads some ICE operation in Chicago, is supposed to appear before a Federal judge to be questioned on what ICE did to whom today. Let's see if he shows up.
Animats 2 days ago||
Didn't happen. A frantic appeal by the Administration to the 7th circuit court of appeals postponed it.
cozzyd 2 days ago||
The frustrating thing is the judge originally requested 1630 but then acquiesced to 1800.
Tostino 2 days ago||
The legislative just love getting slapped in the face by the executive. Repeatedly.
cozzyd 2 days ago||
In this case, this is a federal judge.
Tostino 1 day ago||
Gah, totally intended to say judicial there. Oops.
oceansky 2 days ago||
I wonder who is storing this data, I would bet Palantir. Possibly Oracle too.
neom 2 days ago||
Did some research, biometrics specifically for facial ID for DHS/CBP seems to be awarded to NEC and Thales.

https://www.nec.com/en/global/solutions/biometrics/face/neof...

pavel_lishin 2 days ago|||
Very likely an array of hackers, soon.
qingcharles 2 days ago||
I assume the agents are using their own phones. One of their phones is going to be left in a bar and end up on eBay at some point and then the APK can be extracted at least.
tracker1 2 days ago||
It should be an assigned/signed device with biometric and passcode access configured... At least it was in a couple proposals I helped define for credentialing emergency responders... though the contract definitely went with a different supplier than the one I was working with.
pavel_lishin 2 days ago|||
It should not exist at all.
tracker1 1 day ago||
Your probably right.
wildrhythms 1 day ago|||
A pro-surveillance state 'hacker' very cool stuff.
tracker1 1 day ago||
I'm mostly speaking to the device security. I'm no hacker and what I was working on was mostly making sure that people operating as emergency responders are who they say they are when you're disconnected from a centralized network.
crypto420 2 days ago|||
Not Palantir. Their CEO has explicitly said that they don't collect data on US citizens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-IH7EVrBbQ

shostack 2 days ago|||
Do they partner with Clearview or Flock or anyone else? "Collect" seems like a weasel word that still leaves lots of options on the table.
seg_lol 2 days ago||
Palantir isn't collecting it, they are storing it and processing it after it has been collected by ICE.

Their defacto scan everyone isn't to determine citizenship, it is to collect the data in the first place. They want to get as much data into their system as possible.

quantumcotton 1 day ago||||
Dumb question, but can't they get around that considering they are looking for people whom are not US citizens?
red-iron-pine 19 hours ago|||
that's a boldface fuckin lie
dv_dt 2 days ago|||
what is the database being compared against?
an0malous 2 days ago||
a skin tone chart
ddtaylor 2 days ago||
[flagged]
trollbridge 2 days ago||
With no consequences whatsoever?
seg_lol 2 days ago||
There as a scathing book! https://ibmandtheholocaust.com/about-ibm-and-holocaust
EasyMark 2 days ago||
Anyone who doesn't think this won't be used against regular citizens is living a very sheltered life. Vote out the clowns every time you get a chance.
pixxel 2 days ago|
[dead]
barbazoo 2 days ago||
Wow this is going downhill fast. I don't have access to the article but I'm assuming this is what Palantir is all about right? Or are we not quite there yet, is this the CBP face scanning they have at border crossings too?
burkaman 2 days ago|
It's about this app, they won't tell anyone who developed it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_Fortify.
ck2 2 days ago||
When I saw them do iris scanning during Iraq War I instantly knew that was coming to US police sooner or later, I guess this is the new easier method

The crazy thing is though these people don't even have an identifying badge number and their license plates are often fake, zero repercussions for anything and they know it

Imagine by 2028 what's going down if this is still the first year

phs318u 2 days ago||
Anti-surveillance makeup anyone?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_vision_dazzle

troyvit 2 days ago||
One of that article's top sources is Vogue (https://www.vogue.com/article/computer-vision-dazzle-anti-su...).

I remember in college my magazine journalism prof surprised me by pointing out that Vogue a bad-ass journalistic enterprise in its own right. That was 35 years ago and it's cool to see they still have it.

_DeadFred_ 2 days ago||
Can we do stickers that people can print out and wear?
phs318u 2 days ago||
A seriously good idea which I can find no prior art for! Also, worth checking out this pro-privacy/anti-surveillance artist/activist - Adam Harvey. His site and his work is a fantastic intro into the anti-surveillance scene. (Check out his DataPools).

https://adam.harvey.studio/

mrbombastic 2 days ago|
If you haven’t seen it this video is a dystopian display of this tech in action: https://www.reddit.com/r/EyesOnIce/comments/1ogm1qk/ice_agen...

I am struggling a bit personally with how to grapple with the fact that the career I have chosen has ended up bolstering all the horrible inclinations of those in power. I think we need some kind of tech workers collective and some version of the hippocratic oath to start pushing back against this bullshit.

dogman144 2 days ago||
I think a lot of tech needs to go through that struggle.

From the perspective of a long career in infosec, what’s occurring now was enabled a longtime ago by broad-based industry consensus. Concerns then, which == awful stuff occurring now, were robustly dismissed by many many many devs with s/strong viewpoints/paychecks.

The only silver lining I can see is we’re taking our medicine now, but there’s a lot more to go through still, on the back of many significant tech capabilities.

For example, Flock was kept out of many cities, but Amazon was not, Flock just signed a data sharing deal with Ring. That’s a no-nonsense, nationwide, warrantless vehicular and pedestrian tracking network mechanism.

Not great, Bob! But RSUs for building it all sure was great.

shadowgovt 2 days ago|||
Physicists have Pugwash, which started after they saw the culmination of their decades of work in the actual evaporation of two entire cities.
Insanity 2 days ago|||
It's true now as in the past. Technology or science aren't inherently good or bad, just a matter of how you use it. Personally I enjoyed much more working on medical devices at a university than typical commercial software, simply because there's an ethical component to that software that was quite fulfilling.
evanjrowley 2 days ago||
How certain are we that the photos being taken are going to a Palantir database?

Asking because the FBI has been assembling biometrics databases since the mid-20th century and providing access to other law enforcement agencies since the 1990s.

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